Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Johnny Gobbs]

Hopefully we get descriptions soon.

"The closest film to releasing is Joker, which already has a highly popular first trailer, giving us a first look at the feel and tone that Phoenix's Joker is going for, and it is a compelling mix of whimsy and disturbing."

"The exploration of Arthur Fleck (Joaquin Phoenix), a man disregarded by society, is not only a gritty character study but also a broader cautionary tale."

Not sure if this is just a general synopsis, or actually describing what was shown at CineEurope. Either way, it doesn't sound like anything much different from what we already know. Still, I like the way that was worded: "a compelling mix of whimsy and disturbing".

EDIT: I guess that second part, where it describes a "gritty character study but also a broader cautionary tale" is from the original synopsis

Joker, Wonder Woman 1984, And Birds Of Prey New Looks Revealed At CineEurope

 

[Gothamsknight]

"The closest film to releasing is Joker, which already has a highly popular first trailer, giving us a first look at the feel and tone that Phoenix's Joker is going for, and it is a compelling mix of whimsy and disturbing."

"The exploration of Arthur Fleck (Joaquin Phoenix), a man disregarded by society, is not only a gritty character study but also a broader cautionary tale."

Not sure if this is just a general synopsis, or actually describing what was shown at CineEurope. Either way, it doesn't sound like anything much dfferent from what we already know. Still, I like the way that was worded: "a compelling mix of whimsy and disturbing".

Joker, Wonder Woman 1984, And Birds Of Prey New Looks Revealed At CineEurope

Yeah thats an interesting and well worded description. My intrigue for this film is really high at this point haha. That first trailer was so damn good, and now I'm just eagerly awaiting whats next

 

[Pennywise]

All I could find on the footage at CineEurope.

 

[thebatfan5194]

As long as it doesn't glorify it I don't see why it's wrong. If it's there for a purpose then we should judge it on its effectiveness in helping that narrative purpose. Like, Brightburn is incredibly violent but it also wasn't about anything; so all the violence felt empty. Joker seems like it's trying to talk about serious subject matter, so its using violence in order to help drive many of those themes home, and to not neuter them.

But I know people who think having Joker as the lead is in itself a glorification of his actions. Some want a complete sanitization of the medium it seems.

 

[The Joker]

But I know people who think having Joker as the lead is in itself a glorification of his actions. Some want a complete sanitization of the medium it seems.

Which is nonsense when you think about it. I mean movies that spotlight real life killers like Dahmer, Bundy etc as the lead are not glorifying them or their horrendous actions.

 

[metaphysician]

Which is nonsense when you think about it. I mean movies that spotlight real life killers like Dahmer, Bundy etc as the lead are not glorifying them or their horrendous actions.

Depends on how the movie actually frames and portrays them.

 

[Johnny Gobbs]

Depends on how the movie actually frames and portrays them.

Depends on the interpretation also. Heath's Joker was the real hero of TDK, depending on who you ask..

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'm inclined to agree with all your sentiments; it doesn't mean I can't still be concerned. And not just with respect to how some "wacko" will interpret the movies themes/message, but how certain special interest groups might use the trope of the "wacko" (or even an actual "wacko") to push an specific agenda. Like it or not, movies have become highly politicized over time. Which on one hand makes them interesting when they touch upon things reflected in our society, but also can be somewhat dangerous when people misuse the power of a potent message for something shady.

I actually had this thought the other day. As a mentally sane person that’s a fan of Batman and The Joker as characters, I think this movie will be fun and cool. But for an unhinged person, this movie might be dangerous. I just hope this movie doesn’t give ammunition for mentally unwell people to commit atrocities. This movie has the potential to be dangerous, especially when you consider the Aurora shooting..

 

[Jekecy]

I don’t see how that should be a deterrent for art. The mentally unwell can take anything and skew it maliciously. Policing creative work isn’t a solution.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I don’t see how that should be a deterrent for art. The mentally unwell can take anything and skew it maliciously. Policing creative work isn’t a solution.

Did I say it should be a deterrent? I’m all for freedom of expression, but this movie has dangerous potential. We literally had a mass shooter that was directly inspired by Heath Ledger’s Joker. This isn’t even a debate, The Joker as a character has inspired people to commit violence. You can’t stop violent media altogether, because sometimes mentally unwell people are going to commit atrocities regardless, and they will always seek out violent media.

I don’t blame media. But it can be an inspiration for people to do bad things. Doesn’t mean the media is to blame. The person is. It also doesn’t mean we should police violent media. But acknowledging that a film (centered around a fictional character that has already inspired a mass shooting) could potentially be dangerous shouldn’t be such a blasphemous thought.

 

[The Joker]

Depends on how the movie actually frames and portrays them.

Ok, but is this something that movies usually do when portraying mass murderers or serial killers? Can you give an example of a movie that has done this? I don't mean something anti-hero like The Punisher mass murdering criminals. I mean a straight up killer of innocent people being glorified. Because I honestly can't think of any myself.

Personally based on what we've heard, I think this Joker will be someone audience will sympathize and even empathize with in some ways because of how horribly he's treated. But I don't think his murderous actions in reaction to his horrible life will be glorified.

Depends on the interpretation also. Heath's Joker was the real hero of TDK, depending on who you ask..

No offense if there is anybody here who believes that, but that is a new level of stupidity. If someone got that message then they had the entire movie fly right over their head and 50 miles beyond. The movie never portrays or even implies the Joker is a hero. Anyone who went away with that impression saw a different movie to the one Chris Nolan made.

 

[Jekecy]

Did I say it should be a deterrent?

I didn't quote you because I wasn't talking to anyone directly.

But acknowledging that a film (centered around a fictional character that has already inspired a mass shooting) could potentially be dangerous shouldn’t be such a blasphemous thought.

People acknowledging it is fine, it’s just an empty statement when no one is really disagreeing with it and is generally considered true anyway.

When this topic is broached, invariably the follow-up discussion revolves around “what do we do about it?”. So that was where my initial comment was coming from.

It’s an unfortunate facet of life that terrible people will imitate art, but that in itself shouldn’t prevent creatives from exploring and presenting their art to the masses. It’s just an incredibly slippery slope.

 

[Johnny Gobbs]

Can you give an example of a movie that has done this? I don't mean something anti-hero like The Punisher mass murdering criminals. I mean a straight up killer of innocent people being glorified. Because I can't think of any.



No offense if there is anybody here who believes that, but that is a new level of stupidity. If someone got that message then they had the entire movie fly right over their head and 50 miles beyond. The movie never portrays or even implies the Joker is a hero. Anyone who went away with that impression saw a different movie to the one Chris Nolan made.

Revealing so-called civilized people for the hypocrites they actually are (as one example) may be 'heroic' to more people than you think (EDIT: and might actually parallel the story arc of the Joaquin Joker to a certain extent). I guess it could boil down to what side of the tracks you're from. I don't think it's fair at all to say it's a "new level of stupidity" when even though we may not agree with or condone that particular opinion, it's a perfectly valid/feasible interpretation of the character.

 

[The Joker]

Revealing so-called civilized people for the hypocrites they actually are (as one example) may be 'heroic' to more people than you think (EDIT: and might actually parallel the story arc of the Joaquin Joker to a certain extent). I guess it could boil down to what side of the tracks you're from. I don't think it's fair at all to say it's a "new level of stupidity" when even though we may not agree with or condone that particular opinion, it's a perfectly valid/feasible interpretation of the character.

Murdering a slew of innocent people just to prove a point about hypocrisy of people's nature is anything but heroic. I am all for respecting opinions, especially if they're rooted in some kind of logic. This is not even a matter of clashing different tastes in something, this is calling the mass murder of innocents heroic, and all those murders were not even ends to a noble means, because at the end of the day the Joker had no noble goals in mind. The consequences he wanted from his plan was anarchy and chaos. People losing hope and faith. Losing their minds. Killing each other. Bringing in a new breed of criminal who is not just consumed by money etc.

There's no heroism or nobility in any of those goals. Its like how he crippled Barbara Gordon and tortured Jim Gordon in TKJ just to try and prove everyone else is just one bad day away from being like him. That's not heroic. That's not noble. That's not justified to prove the point he wanted to make. Even if the Joker likes to think it is.

 

[Astro13Zombie]

Did I say it should be a deterrent? I’m all for freedom of expression, but this movie has dangerous potential. We literally had a mass shooter that was directly inspired by Heath Ledger’s Joker. This isn’t even a debate, The Joker as a character has inspired people to commit violence. You can’t stop violent media altogether, because sometimes mentally unwell people are going to commit atrocities regardless, and they will always seek out violent media.

I don’t blame media. But it can be an inspiration for people to do bad things. Doesn’t mean the media is to blame. The person is. It also doesn’t mean we should police violent media. But acknowledging that a film (centered around a fictional character that has already inspired a mass shooting) could potentially be dangerous shouldn’t be such a blasphemous thought.

There’s definitely something about The Joker specifically that gets into the heads of certain people.

Here’s a recent local problem in the Denver music scene.

 

[Orb]

You can bet your ass all this talk you guys are mentioning is gonna effect the critical reception of the film.

 

[hellblazer103]

Murdering a slew of innocent people just to prove a point about hypocrisy of people's nature is anything but heroic. I am all for respecting opinions, especially if they're rooted in some kind of logic. This is not even a matter of clashing different tastes in something, this is calling the mass murder of innocents heroic, and all those murders were not even ends to a noble means, because at the end of the day the Joker had no noble goals in mind. The consequences he wanted from his plan was anarchy and chaos. People losing hope and faith. Losing their minds. Killing each other. Bringing in a new breed of criminal who is not just consumed by money etc.

There's no heroism or nobility in any of those goals. Its like how he crippled Barbara Gordon and tortured Jim Gordon in TKJ just to try and prove everyone else is just one bad day away from being like him. That's not heroic. That's not noble. That's not justified to prove the point he wanted to make. Even if the Joker likes to think it is.

Yeah, when things like that "Joker is the real hero of The Dark Knight" article are said, I just.... I can't lol. Like, ya boi blew up a hospital...

There’s definitely something about The Joker specifically that gets into the heads of certain people.

Here’s a recent local problem in the Denver music scene.

View attachment 26392

Damn. That's pretty messed up. Gotta say though, he does look like.... Dare I say it? Jerome??

 

[Johnny Gobbs]

Murdering a slew of innocent people just to prove a point about hypocrisy of people's nature is anything but heroic. I am all for respecting opinions, especially if they're rooted in some kind of logic. This is not even a matter of clashing different tastes in something, this is calling the mass murder of innocents heroic, and all those murders were not even ends to a noble means, because at the end of the day the Joker had no noble goals in mind. The consequences he wanted from his plan was anarchy and chaos. People losing hope and faith. Losing their minds. Killing each other. Bringing in a new breed of criminal who is not just consumed by money etc.

There's no heroism or nobility in any of those goals. Its like how he crippled Barbara Gordon and tortured Jim Gordon in TKJ just to try and prove everyone else is just one bad day away from being like him. That's not heroic. That's not noble. That's not justified to prove the point he wanted to make. Even if the Joker likes to think it is.

Look, I never said he (Heath's Joker) was my hero, or yours, just that ours is not the only perspective. The fact that they seem to be portraying Arthur Fleck in a sympathetic light combined with the fact that there seems to be a Joker-inspired uprising at some point in the film suggests to me that Phillips plans on exploring this angle even more than Nolan did, which I admit that I find interesting, albeit slightly worrisome.

 

[The Joker]

Look, I never said he (Heath's Joker) was my hero, or yours, just that ours is not the only perspective. The fact that they seem to be portraying Arthur Fleck in a sympathetic light combined with the fact that there seems to be a Joker-inspired uprising at some point in the film suggests to me that Phillips plans on exploring this angle even more than Nolan did, which I admit that I find interesting, albeit slightly worrisome.

Oh I know, I never said it was your train of thought. You just mentioned it, and I'm saying what I think of the idea that Joker was any sort of hero in TDK. I can hear Chris Nolan laughing from here at the idea of it.

Based on everything we've heard I think this will be some sort of sympathetic take on the Joker, too, but there's a difference between sympathetic and glorifying his actions. We may feel bad for the hardships his character endures, but I don't think the movie will make his mass murder of innocents, assuming he does kill many innocent people, something to cheer on. I doubt Phillips wants to send that message either. Its ok to murder people if life has treated you bad.

 

[Johnny Gobbs]

Oh I know, I never said it was your train of thought. You just mentioned it, and I'm saying what I think of the idea that Joker was any sort of hero in TDK. I can hear Chris Nolan laughing from here at the idea of it.

Based on everything we've heard I think this will be some sort of sympathetic take on the Joker, too, but there's a difference between sympathetic and glorifying his actions. We may feel bad for the hardships his character endures, but I don't think the movie will make his mass murder of innocents, assuming he does kill many innocent people, something to cheer on. I doubt Phillips wants to send that message either. Its ok to murder people if life has treated you bad.

Right, and the point I was trying to make (using TDK as the example) was regardless of whatever message is intended, doesn't necessarily mean that is how it will be received, or wielded for that matter... Anyways, I'm not trying to go in circles with ya when we mostly agree. I just suspect that there are certain special interest groups who are chomping at the bit to make a real-world example of the fictional Arthur Fleck / Joker character. I'm just waiting for someone to pass me the popcorn already, lol.

 

[metaphysician]

I feel like too many people have a hard time grokking that the main character of a story can be anything but the "hero". It just gets assumed that any character whose given any degree of focus or attention outside the strictest cardboard villain stereotypes, must not actually be a villain.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Oh I know, I never said it was your train of thought. You just mentioned it, and I'm saying what I think of the idea that Joker was any sort of hero in TDK. I can hear Chris Nolan laughing from here at the idea of it.

Based on everything we've heard I think this will be some sort of sympathetic take on the Joker, too, but there's a difference between sympathetic and glorifying his actions. We may feel bad for the hardships his character endures, but I don't think the movie will make his mass murder of innocents, assuming he does kill many innocent people, something to cheer on. I doubt Phillips wants to send that message either. Its ok to murder people if life has treated you bad.

Agreed. There's a huge contrast between tragic and glorifying a murderers actions. This film will be a tragic/cautionary tale about the dangers of society as a whole and its effect on people.

 

[Johnny Gobbs]

Agreed. There's a huge contrast between tragic and glorifying a murderers actions. This film will be a tragic/cautionary tale about the dangers of society as a whole and its effect on people.

Someone kills another human being with an army uniform on and they're heralded as a hero, yet if they commit the same exact act on their home soil, that person is a murderer. I keep saying, it all boils down to perspective. The contrast you describe is often imaginary, which is one of the points that Nolan's Joker set out to prove, and the reason why some people (mis?)interpreted that character as the "hero" of the story.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah but usually when a soldier kills they are fighting for their country to save lives. Nobody likes war or conflict, but soldiers put their life on the line to protect and to fight for their country for noble selfless reasons. That's why they get labeled a hero. No version of the Joker fits that sort of mold.

Even if I didn't personally agree with labeling soldiers as heroes, I could at least understand the logic behind it. I just cannot with anyone who does for the Joker because there is no sound logic there. His actions are evil through and through.

 

[metaphysician]

See, this. This is why I am deeply dubious of the Joker movie. It brings exactly this kind of dumb, superficial "maybe the Joker has a point" thinking out of the woodwork.