Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Scarecrow_King]

As great as TDK's Joker was, it has set a terrible precedent for the character. He's not the face of pure, unjustified evil like he was in the comics for decades. He's now the face of edge-lords spouting bull**** in an attempt to sound deep and go against mainstream culture.

 

[The Joker]

As great as TDK's Joker was, it has set a terrible precedent for the character. He's not the face of pure, unjustified evil like he was in the comics for decades. He's now the face of edge-lords spouting bull**** in an attempt to sound deep and go against mainstream culture.

What precedent? There's no kind of consensus that believes this. A handful of deluded people does not make a precedent.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

That is completely untrue. There is no consensus out there that thinks TDK Joker or any interpretation of the Joker is or should be some kind of hero. A small handful of deluded people thinking that does not make a precedent.

Where did I call him a hero? There's a difference between being a counter-culture icon, and being a hero. TDK Joker became the former. His face is still plastered all over Hot Topics. He's basically the superhero equivalent of Tyler Durden. I credit that to TDK, and it's tiresome.

 

[The Joker]

Where did I call him a hero? There's a difference between being a counter-culture icon, and being a hero. TDK Joker became the former. His face is still plastered all over Hot Topics. He's basically the superhero equivalent of Tyler Durden. I credit that to TDK, and it's tiresome.

You're complaining that the Joker is on a lot of merchandise? The Joker has always been one of the most culturally iconic and merchandised characters from comic books. Why would that bother you now?

 

[Scarecrow_King]

You're complaining that the Joker is on a lot of merchandise? The Joker has always been one of the most culturally iconic and merchandised characters from comic books. Why would that bother you now?

Kay, that's twice now you've twisted what I actually said into what you want to argue against.

• I don't care that he's merchandised. That wasn't my point. But come on, you know the Joker is way more merchandised now than he was pre-TDK.
• It's more about the change in HOW he is merchandised and perceived, and the target audiences that buy into it. I used Hot Topic as an example because it's an "anti-mainstream" store.

That all started with TDK. Especially the "madness is like gravity" line. People on the fringe identified with it, and started adopting the Joker to signal that they are outside that mainstream.

 

[The Joker]

Kay, that's twice now you've twisted what I actually said into what you want to argue against.

• I don't care that he's merchandised. That wasn't my point. But come on, you know the Joker is way more merchandised now than he was pre-TDK.
• It's more about the change in HOW he is merchandised and perceived, and the target audiences that buy into it. I used Hot Topic as an example because it's an "anti-mainstream" store.

That all started with TDK. Especially the "madness is like gravity" line. People on the fringe identified with it, and started adopting the Joker to signal that they are outside that mainstream.

I do apologize, but in all honesty if I am "twisting" what you're saying its because I can't wrap my head around what you're saying. None of it makes sense.

- Absolutely I agree. But that is a testament to how awesome and popular Ledger's Joker is. That's a sign of popularity. Batman became way more merchandised after he got his own movies. Popularity is always a good thing, especially when a great character deserves it. TDK is one of the biggest event movies in CBM history. That was to be expected. Movies boost merchandising is they are a hit. Just like Harley Quinn's did after Suicide Squad. Any CB character who hits well with audiences in a movie is going to have a rise in merchandising. Given that we are talking about an insanely popular take on an already super popular iconic character, naturally Joker's merchandising shot up even more after TDK.
- What is wrong with the way he is merchandised? What are they doing with it that is so terrible? I own a lot of TDK Joker merchandise. I don't see what's so off about it compared to other CBM merch. And what is this perception from target audiences, who ever they are, that you're talking about? In what way are these target audiences perceiving him that is so bad in your eyes? You're making vague statements without any clarification of what is so terrible about it.

What people on the fringe? Is there some movement out there utilizing him in a bad way that I am unaware of? Show me some examples of what you're talking about because I have no clue what people on the fringe you're referring to. I've never seen a complaint like this raised before in the 11 years since TDK's release. I've just been Googling what you're saying trying to get some idea of it and can't find anything at all. So help me understand what it is that bothers you so much because I honestly don't get it.

You claim he's not the face of pure, unjustified evil like he was in the comics for decades. I've seen nothing at all that says that's true. Joker's evil image is still very much intact. Show me proof that has changed for the consensus.

 

[Guts]

See, this. This is why I am deeply dubious of the Joker movie. It brings exactly this kind of dumb, superficial "maybe the Joker has a point" thinking out of the woodwork.

You'll see that for any comic book movie where they give the villain a tragic backstory. Like Thanos for example.

 

[Orb]

It's actually interesting the way Phillips and Nolan both went about creating a Joker in a "grounded, realistic" world but chose different approaches. LedgerJoker established the more grounded look and made him more of a domestic terrorist equivalent. He had unbelievable level of methodically planning and technical skills that made him unstoppable. He was also pure evil, despite the motivations you listed above, he was never seen in the right nor do we have ever see any other side of LedgerJoker other than just pure, unfiltered chaotic evil. Because of this he had a "force of nature" feel which made him more mythical than say a real person. That makes it easier to distance him from actual terrorists despite some edgelords and shooters that are influenced by him even tho LedgerJoker is definitively marketed as a counterculture icon by some

Phillips was sent out to ground the Joker too but chose to go the complete opposite direction. Going by the script, it seems obvious the goal was to show how a "Joker" would be like in our world. So Arthur's story parallels real life serial killers/ mass shooters. The goal became to make him as realistic as possible hence the concerns become that there will be some that could relate to him. Nowadays a lot of older movies get criticized as some see Scorsese gangsters and Godfather films as "romanticism" of the gangster life. Even Taxi Driver had to include a little warning because of the fear of mixed signals of the film's theme in TV broadcasts. It's not surprising that this movie has to address this as it is supposed to be a cautionary tale.

 

[Johnny Gobbs]

So, all my posts got deleted without warning? Why??

 

[thebatfan5194]

It's actually interesting the way Phillips and Nolan both went about creating a Joker in a "grounded, realistic" world but chose different approaches. LedgerJoker established the more grounded look and made him more of a domestic terrorist equivalent. He had unbelievable level of methodically planning and technical skills that made him unstoppable. He was also pure evil, despite the motivations you listed above, he was never seen in the right nor do we have ever see any other side of LedgerJoker other than just pure, unfiltered chaotic evil. Because of this he had a "force of nature" feel which made him more mythical than say a real person. That makes it easier to distance him from actual terrorists despite some edgelords and shooters that are influenced by him even tho LedgerJoker is definitively marketed as a counterculture icon by some

Phillips was sent out to ground the Joker too but chose to go the complete opposite direction. Going by the script, it seems obvious the goal was to show how a "Joker" would be like in our world. So Arthur's story parallels real life serial killers/ mass shooters. The goal became to make him as realistic as possible hence the concerns become that there will be some that could relate to him. Nowadays a lot of older movies get criticized as some see Scorsese gangsters and Godfather films as "romanticism" of the gangster life. Even Taxi Driver had to include a little warning because of the fear of mixed signals of the film's theme in TV broadcasts. It's not surprising that this movie has to address this as it is supposed to be a cautionary tale.

In my opinion bad people will do bad things regardless of whether or not they watch this movie.

 

[The Joker]

So, all my posts got deleted without warning? Why??

So did a couple of mine. I guess we went too off topic.

 

[Hollis Mason]

The movie is dark. I got to read the script. It is REALLY dark. Also, the best thing you can make to a villain is make the viewer understand why he is like that and his views. Joker does that so perfect... You truly understand why Arthur does what he does, even though it is terrible, the movie makes you feel like everyone out there DESERVES what they get, and even ask yourself if you would do the same when so MANY bad things happened to you and you can do nothing to stop it until you just... break. So, from a point of view, this movie makes you feel, understad, and even like what the Joker does and feels about everyone. Of course, this doesn't mean you are a psycopath, it just means the movie is great and knows how to make a great character. Many great pieces of literature did the same (Watchmen as a good example).

What is scary is that there may be some idiot who doesn't understand it isn't real, that the movie doesn't want to make the Joker a good guy, and maybe even tries to do the same thing. But that's not the movie's fault imo. There will be backlash, i am sure of that, but not because the movie is bad. I am even more sure of that.

 

[Pennywise]

The movie is dark. I got to read the script. It is REALLY dark. Also, the best thing you can make to a villain is make the viewer understand why he is like that and his views. Joker does that so perfect... You truly understand why Arthur does what he does, even though it is terrible, the movie makes you feel like everyone out there DESERVES what they get. So, from a point of view, this movie makes you feel what the Joker feels about everyone. What is scary is that there may be some idiot who doesn't understand it isn't real, that the movie doesn't want to make the Joker a good guy, and maybe even tries to do the same thing. But that's not the movie's fault imo. There will be backlash, i am sure of that, but not because the movie is bad. I am even more sure of that.

That's awesome you got to read the script!

 

[Hollis Mason]

That's awesome you got to read the script!

I did. I almost cried in some scenes. It truly feels like a tragicomedy. Arthur's life is pure misery.

 

[Pennywise]

Found a plot summary of the entire film on Reddit. he definitely won't be seen as the hero at the end of the film.

 

[Orb]

Yeah I was surprised how much comedy there was in this

 

[Pennywise]

Sounds pretty great to me! Can't wait for October!

 

[Rorschach2012]

I’m happy this movie was actually made and that they got Joaquin. Still bummed about the look of Joker in this. I get that they wanted something new, but something more traditional looking would’ve been so much more satisfying.

 

[The Joker]

Comedy mixed with darkness.....sounds like the perfect Joker cocktail to me.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The movie is dark. I got to read the script. It is REALLY dark. Also, the best thing you can make to a villain is make the viewer understand why he is like that and his views. Joker does that so perfect... You truly understand why Arthur does what he does, even though it is terrible, the movie makes you feel like everyone out there DESERVES what they get, and even ask yourself if you would do the same when so MANY bad things happened to you and you can do nothing to stop it until you just... break. So, from a point of view, this movie makes you feel, understad, and even like what the Joker does and feels about everyone. Of course, this doesn't mean you are a psycopath, it just means the movie is great and knows how to make a great character. Many great pieces of literature did the same (Watchmen as a good example).

What is scary is that there may be some idiot who doesn't understand it isn't real, that the movie doesn't want to make the Joker a good guy, and maybe even tries to do the same thing. But that's not the movie's fault imo. There will be backlash, i am sure of that, but not because the movie is bad. I am even more sure of that.

All of this sounds fantastic and pure Joker to me. I think the best thing about this is that its going to be told from the point of view of someone like The Joker and make us see things the way HE sees them. His views of the world, and what causes that and such. We know it's wrong, but it's gonna give us his perspective on things in a tragic way, similar to how The Killing Joke did things. I'm so ready for this film

 

[TMP98]

I’m happy this movie was actually made and that they got Joaquin. Still bummed about the look of Joker in this. I get that they wanted something new, but something more traditional looking would’ve been so much more satisfying.

Interesting, I love the design they gave him

 

[Rorschach2012]

I like it. Would’ve liked something more traditional though

The visual deviations from the classic design help to sell this all the more as an Elseworlds project though

 

[hellblazer103]

It's this weird sort of mix of Romero and Ledger, probably the two best live action Jokers thus far really (sorry Jacko, you at least get third place) so that works for me

 

[Pennywise]

It's this weird sort of mix of Romero and Ledger, probably the two best live action Jokers thus far really (sorry Jacko, you at least get third place) so that works for me

This.

 

[hellblazer103]

This.

When you think about it, they're the two most comic accurate. Romero was dead-on accurate to the Joker of his time in the campy era. Ledger obviously didn't fall into a vat of chemicals (or "vat of acid" if you wanna sound like a damn dummydumbums), but he was very true to the spirit of the character and of the Jokers he was influenced by, being the character's first appearance(s) in Batman #1 in 1940, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum etc etc. Plus, there's no better live action movie than TDK to truly capture the relationship/obsession Joker has with Batman.

I love Jack, love 89, but he was mostly accurate to merely the superficial aspects of the character, being the permawhite skin and suit and all. You don't get the sense that he's truly obsessed with Batman. For the most part, they seem to just see each other as nuisances for most of the movie, and they both happen to wanna plow Vicki Vale, and up until the third act, that's about it. Then of course, there's the third act ; the HUGE change in not only making Joker the killer of Bruce's parents, but making Bruce himself a killer and killing Joker at the end of the film, thereby ruining the purpose/longevity of their relationship.

All that being said, Jack just fits the role so well, and "you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight " is still one of my favorite Joker quotes ever.