The Dark Knight Rises The Joker sized elephant in the room

[BlackFox]

Bit of a double-edged sword, to be frank. If Ledger had lived, it feels nearly impossible that he wouldn't come back for the next installment...and not just as a minor cameo or the like. I mean, who wouldn't want that? But then, it wouldn't leave as much room for other villains as he'd have to have some major space.

Ledger's death didn't ruin anything because it didn't take away what he did to help the series peak in the second film. Did it automatically leave them less-equipped to measure up to the greatness of TDK? Perhaps, but what would be the alternative given the reality...NOT doing another movie? Recasting? All in all, it presented a challenge to be sure, but not one that kept the franchise as a whole from being the high water mark of its genre.

Pretty much sums it up perfectly. Heath didnt ruin it, he helped make it.

 

[DACrowe]

I'd say no, because TDKR is a great movie, even if it isn't in the same league as TDK. Could TDKR have been better with a potential Joker card on the table? I guess we'll never know.

As for what role he'd play if he was alive....I highly doubt Nolan would repeat himself with an entire Bat/Joker storyline, so he probably would have had a cameo in the htird act that would have brought the house down. Perhaps in Crane's place as the "judge?" Perhaps some small role in the final battle? We'll never know.

....But if we assume Joker played a major role in this story, I'd take into account how Goyer said around 2008, "We have a story, now all we need is a villain." If it's true that we'd get roughly the same story, except with Joker, I'd imagine there'd be no mention of LOS. Perhaps after a terrible recession (which they hint at in TDKR when they talk about how the poor can't find work except for Bane) and the severity and authoritarian nature of the Dent Act, there is a growing disenfranchised lower class whose fringe starts worshipping the Joker kind of like Tyler Durden in Fight Club. Meanwhile in Arkham, Joker sensing the time is right (perhaps he orchestrates his followers/worshippers to attack the Stock Exchange, just because), Joker gets his psychologist, Harley Quinn, to break him out of prison and this time he leads an anarchic revolution, as opposed to just pure chaos like in TDK. I don't know how he'd keep the US Government out or how he'd get access to a doomsday weapon to hold the city hostage, but he could conceivably get Catwoman to set up Batman who he traps to watch him break the city after his followers trap the cops, as well as personally reveal the truth about Harvey Dent without needing Gordon's words. The third act would play mostly the same except it is Catwoman killing Joker because Batman never could and it is Harley Quinn driving the truck at the end.

But I guess we will never know.

 

[Steyin]

After everything I have seen and read, then after seeing TDKR, I am convinced Joker would have been back if not for Ledger's death, and nothing or anyone is going to convince me otherwise.

 

[BlackFox]

After everything I have seen and read, then after seeing TDKR, I am convinced Joker would have been back if not for Ledger's death, and nothing or anyone is going to convince me otherwise.

I think a small cameo for sure, the fan demand would have been too great to ignore but I dont think a major part would have been played, plus there's always the fact Heath may not have wanted to do it.

But I agree the court scene or something similar would have been the jokers role in TDKR.

 

[The Guard]

There's no way they would relegated The Joker's return to just a cameo. He likely would have had the Lectre-style "consultant" role he was rumored to have in Goyer's original version of the story and then something else more substantial. He might have shown up as the "judge" for the kangaroo court, but that is certainly not all his role would have been. They wouldn't have wasted him like that after his popularity in TDK.

 

[Shpati]

If Joker was in the third movie, he would have beaten John Blake to death with a pipe. Just kidding.

I doubt he would have taken a cameo role like Crane. Crane was a "pawn". He was weak in this trilogy. Although the Kangaroo court was short on lawyers in the Dark Knight Rises. Maybe the Joker could have been the lawyer.

Anyway, I do not think Nolan's Joker goal was to destroy Gotham to ashes, but to turn its people. The Joker would not help Bane, and Bane would not help the Joker.

I do not think the OP meant to use the word "ruined". He was probably just asking if the third movie would have been better if Heath Ledger was still alive.

Personally, I prefer a movIe like the Dark Knight Rises than another movie with the Joker as the main villain. Although I think another Joker movie would have a new villain like Harley Quinn.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Why shouldn't Joker exposing Dent's actions happen? You say it shouldn't but why? It would be far more poetic since he's the one who caused it all and was robbed of his glory because Batman and Gordon covered it up.

That would basically mean Joker will be in the main spotlight as the villain. Do we need to have this again though?

Gordon getting captured by Bane's men when he conveniently had a full written confession with every detail of the Dent cover up on him.

Lazy and uninspired.

Not every detail at all. Just saying that Dent tried to kill Gordon's son; it doesn't talk about those two cops or Maroni and his men.

It doesn't matter whether you enjoyed them or not, the point is he was brought back twice with no major significance in either movie.

Your point about Joker never coming back is false. If he had been brought back he'd have far more relevance and purpose to the story than Crane's cameos, IMO.

Maybe the one cameo for TDKR, but Crane's cameo in TDK did have significance in continuity.

And I've gone through six pages on Google and I can't find anything on Nolan speaking about Joker for TDKR at all. But, I could've swore that I did read an article where Nolan insisted Joker wouldn't be in TDKR if Ledger was still alive.

 

[KalMart]

And I've gone through six pages on Google and I can't find anything on Nolan speaking about Joker for TDKR at all. But, I could've swore that I did read an article where Nolan insisted Joker wouldn't be in TDKR if Ledger was still alive.

I thought he did comment on the opposite, didn't he? In an LA times interview or something?

 

[FlawlessVictory]

^IIRC, Nolan said in that article that he made the conscious effort to put everything about the Joker and his story in TDK without leaving anything for another movie. But that's what he says about all his movies, that he puts everything he can into that particular movie without leaving anything for a possible sequel.

 

[Ravage]

From my perspective, his only role in this would be when Bane was breaking out the prisoners out of prison. He'd be there to lead them for a while in streets and get shot in the leg by Gordon. But making him come across Batman while Bane is terrozing streets would be a bit overkill and fanboyish. No need to change the series name to TDKR : Joker's Revenge

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

It didn't ruin the trilogy. But Joker's absence in The Dark Knight Rises was noticeable to me.

 

[KneelBeforeZod]

No.

I think we'd have gotten mostly the same TDKR if Ledger had been around. My guess is there would've been a Joker component to the riots, maybe even TDKReturns-like fight and death. Probably not as minor as the Scarecrow cameo ... but not life-changing.

Nolan is the type that tells the story he wants to tell. He wanted to tell the end of the legend. His end probably would've been about the same with or without Joker.

KBZ

 

[KalMart]

From my perspective, his only role in this would be when Bane was breaking out the prisoners out of prison. He'd be there to lead them for a while in streets and get shot in the leg by Gordon. But making him come across Batman while Bane is terrozing streets would be a bit overkill and fanboyish. No need to change the series name to TDKR : Joker's Revenge

I think it's clear to many that had Ledger lived they would have written a different story to feature him more, since the whole idea and approach to the TDKR storyline came after he had passed and they knew they had to come up with something without him. Maybe still with Bane and a larger scale/apocalyptic crisis at hand, but it wouldn't be this actual TDKR 'with special guest Joker'.

 

[Monicabbm]

It didn't ruin the trilogy. But Joker's absence in The Dark Knight Rises was noticeable to me.

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He would come back and we would not have Bane and Talia, I think it would be another story, perhaps with Two-Face.

Joker would not have been long in prison. And Batman would not have been absent for eight years.

 

[Deserana]

Bane is about control. The Joker is about chaos there is no way his cameo would have been Bane letting him loose Bane would have kept him close with a gun to the head (not literally but something to that effect).

 

[Mito88]

Nolan had said this that even if alive, Ledger would not have returned as Joker.

And you believe him? just how he said he wouldnt make a second and then a third movie? BS

 

[The Joker]

That would basically mean Joker will be in the main spotlight as the villain. Do we need to have this again though?

How does that mean Joker is the main spotlight because he reveals the Dent cover up?

Not every detail at all. Just saying that Dent tried to kill Gordon's son; it doesn't talk about those two cops or Maroni and his men.

Gordon's confessional speech was several pages long. Now unless he typed it out in a size 20 font, there's not a chance in bad place Bane read out the whole thing. He just selected the most despicable portion of the whole affair where Dent tried to kill the child of the Police Commissioner who then covered up the truth of that and praised the man who tried to kill his child for years.

That would hit harder than hearing Dent killed a corrupt Cop and a scumbag like Maroni.

Maybe the one cameo for TDKR, but Crane's cameo in TDK did have significance in continuity.

It had no significance to the main plot of TDK. A throwaway line about Crane being recaptured in between BB and TDK would have sufficed, but Nolan opted for a cameo.

And I've gone through six pages on Google and I can't find anything on Nolan speaking about Joker for TDKR at all. But, I could've swore that I did read an article where Nolan insisted Joker wouldn't be in TDKR if Ledger was still alive.

I didn't think you would find it. If Nolan ever made such a bold statement it would be as easy to find as his quote about him not addressing Joker in TDKR out of respect for Heath's memory.

 

[Anno_Domini]

And you believe him? just how he said he wouldnt make a second and then a third movie? BS

He never said that, lol.

How does that mean Joker is the main spotlight because he reveals the Dent cover up?

Because Bane was the main villain who revealed the lie. It had to be somewhat of a big deal and it would've especially been made a huge deal if Joker did it.

Gordon's confessional speech was several pages long. Now unless he typed it out in a size 20 font, there's not a chance in bad place Bane read out the whole thing. He just selected the most despicable portion of the whole affair where Dent tried to kill the child of the Police Commissioner who then covered up the truth of that and praised the man who tried to kill his child for years.

That would hit harder than hearing Dent killed a corrupt Cop and a scumbag like Maroni.

Bane unfolds the pages of Gordon’s undelivered speech...

BANE

’The truth about Harvey Dent is simple in only one regard - it has been hidden for too long. After his devastating injuries, Harvey’s mind has recovered no better than his mutilated face. He was a broken, dangerous man, not the crusader for justice that I, James Gordon, have portrayed him to be for the last eight years. Harvey’s rage was indiscriminate. Psychopathic. He held my family at gunpoint, then fell to his death in the struggle over my son’s life. The Batman did not murder Harvey Dent - he saved my boy. Then took the blame for Harvey’s appalling crimes, so that
I could, to my shame, build a lie around this fallen idol. I praised the madman who tried to murder my own child. The things we did in Harvey’s name brought desperately needed security to our streets... But I can no
longer live with my lie. It is time to trust the people of Gotham with
the truth, and it is time for me to resign.’

Still, even in the script nothing about the five people that died from Dent.

It had no significance to the main plot of TDK. A throwaway line about Crane being recaptured in between BB and TDK would have sufficed, but Nolan opted for a cameo.

Getting a glimpse of the Chechen was playing a main plot for TDK and how Crane was still working his way with the mobs.

I didn't think you would find it. If Nolan ever made such a bold statement it would be as easy to find as his quote about him not addressing Joker in TDKR out of respect for Heath's memory.

Correct, it would be easy. But I still stand by that I did read such an article and didn't make some silly thing up.

 

[The Joker]

Because Bane was the main villain who revealed the lie. It had to be somewhat of a big deal and it would've especially been made a huge deal if Joker did it.

Bane had MORE than enough material to work with that made him the biggest deal. Joker exposing the cover up would hardly make him the major villain lol.

Still, even in the script nothing about the five people that died from Dent.

The script is quoting the lines Bane read. I repeat again; Gordon's speech was several pages long. There's no way in bad place Bane read all of those pages in those few lines lol.

Getting a glimpse of the Chechen was playing a main plot for TDK and how Crane was still working his way with the mobs.

The Chechen's antics in that garage had no bearing on his role in the movie. His first scene could have been at the mob meeting and it wouldn't have made a difference to how he played out in the rest of the movie.

Crane's part had no point in the main plot.

Correct, it would be easy. But I still stand by that I did read such an article and didn't make some silly thing up.

I won't call you a liar. I'll just say I think you either misread what he said, or the article was total fabricated BS.

 

[Schlosser85]

His complete absence and the lack of even a mention was conspicuous to me and did feel like they left him hanging, but I wouldn't say it "ruined" the trilogy, because to me TDKR was still a very solid movie.

 

[intothevoid]

I don't think so. There's no way Ledger would have been excluded if he were still alive. Whether Nolan wanted him or not, WB would have made it happen.

He'd be the judge instead of Crane. That's about it.

 

[batbax]

Nolan never said anything about ledger not being in the 3rd one. If anything there's way more evidence out there that he would have been.

 

[Nathan]

Remembering one of Joker's last lines, does make me a bit sad how the Trilogy ended. "We are destined to do this forever." Batman disappears for 8 years and then "dies" 5 months later.

 

[AnneFan]

No, Heath Ledger's death didn't ruin the trilogy. If any plot points in Rises are disappointingly handled to some, it goes over to the writers, not Heath. It was up to them to make it work.

 

[Jim-El]

The question is when Heath was still alive was Nolan even planning on a third installment? Was Nolan's original intent to have a trilogy?
From what I read it seemed Nolan was in no hurry for a third installment if one at all.