The Dark Knight Rises The Joker sized elephant in the room

[The Joker]

Keep in mind that there was never a mention of the Toxin attack on Gotham in TDK and that was a pretty major ordeal. I was waiting for them to drop some kind of nod to the narrows attack in TDK but that never happened... and it really didn't bother me at all.

The toxin attack had no bearing on the plot of TDK. It was done and dusted. The only fall out from that was Crane still being on the loose, which was addressed in TDK. Joker's destruction of Harvey Dent and the emotional damage he caused to Bruce is very much relevant to TDKR.

Furthermore, even if we take out of the equation that Joker's actions are relevant to TDKR, since when has Nolan shied away from putting in fan stuff when it's not needed?

Was Zsasz really necessary in Begins? Was the Joker card at the end of Begins really necessary? Did Falcone still being in Arkham need to be mentioned in TDK?

 

[BatLobster]

The toxin attack had no bearing on the plot of TDK. It was done and dusted. The only fall out from that was Crane still being on the loose, which was addressed in TDK. Joker's destruction of Harvey Dent and the emotional damage he caused to Bruce is very much relevant to TDKR.

Furthermore, even if we take out of the equation that Joker's actions are relevant to TDKR, since when has Nolan shied away from putting in fan stuff when it's not needed?

Was Zsasz really necessary in Begins? Was the Joker card at the end of Begins really necessary? Did Falcone still being in Arkham need to be mentioned in TDK?

These are solid arguments, though I think the emotional damage from TDK will be felt and addressed. Just done so without saying "The Joker".

I don't think this comes down to not wanting to cater to fanboys. A lot of the "fun" of a Joker reference would be deflated by it drawing attention to the fact that Heath is no longer with us, or at least that is how Nolan felt.

I also feel that, had they referenced The Joker, you'd have a bunch of people crying foul about how he's exploiting a dead actor's legacy to squeeze more juice out of his new movie. It just seems like moving past The Joker is the right thing for this one. The simplest way to deal with a tragic situation.

The Joker will have his day in the sun again and I look forward to it.

 

[Norek]

I hope people realize at some point that this is Nolan's decision and since they're biased, they may never understand his decision, no matter how hard they try. Just get over it guys...

 

[KalMart]

Everyone who saw the last film, and everyone in the film knows what it is that happened 8 yrs back and helped put him in this state without having to bring it up by name when they talk. It's not a biggie not to hear it.

 

[BatLobster]

Everyone who saw the last film, and everyone in the film knows what it is that happened 8 yrs back and helped put him in this state without having to bring it up by name when they talk. It's not a biggie not to hear it.

Exactly. I think it actually honors The Joker's role in the story and gives it more weight by not directly mentioning him. Bruce is still in bad emotional shape 8 years after encountering him. 'Nuff said.

 

[The Joker]

These are solid arguments, though I think the emotional damage from TDK will be felt and addressed. Just done so without saying "The Joker".

No doubt. But needlessly so.

I don't think this comes down to not wanting to cater to fanboys. A lot of the "fun" of a Joker reference would be deflated by it drawing attention to the fact that Heath is no longer with us or at least that is how Nolan felt.

I also feel that, had they referenced The Joker, you'd have a bunch of people crying foul about how he's exploiting a dead actor's legacy to squeeze more juice out of his new movie. It just seems like moving past The Joker is the right thing for this one. The simplest way to deal with a tragic situation.

Two things:

1. Why would referencing Joker take out the fun just because Heath is gone? We know Heath is dead. It happened over 4 years ago. We've all accepted it. If watching him in TDK mere months after he died didn't pit the whole movie into a depression when his passing was still raw, then why would a mere mention of the Joker's name do that over 4 years later?

2. The official plot synopsis for this movie has Joker's name in it lol. I don't see anyone accusing TDKR of trying to cash in on Heath's passing for that.

 

[craigdbfan]

Nolan just doesn't feel comfortable. People should respect his decision.

That's just the way it is.

 

[KalMart]

Again, it could work just as well either way...mentioning or not mentioning. Let's say it was 50-50, and as a personal thing for Nolan it leaned towards not mentioning. Simple as that. Next subject.

 

[BatLobster]

No doubt. But needlessly so.



Two things:

1. Why would referencing Joker take out the fun just because Heath is gone? We know Heath is dead. It happened over 4 years ago. We've all accepted it. If watching him in TDK mere months after he died didn't pit the whole movie into a depression when his passing was still raw, then why would a mere mention of the Joker's name do that over 4 years later?

2. The official plot synopsis for this movie has Joker's name in it lol. I don't see anyone accusing TDKR of trying to cash in on Heath's passing for that.

Does it? I thought that was just EW's description, if it's the one talking about him "healing physically and mentally" etc.

And to address your first point- I didn't mean that as in we'd all suddenly be sad about Heath again. It's more just like, it'd be such a tease because we know we're not going to see him at all in the film. Kind of like the line, "You and I destined to do this forever". Who couldn't help but feel bittersweet about that line?

Not saying a Joker reference would have been completely impossible to pull off, I just respect the decision that was made and the reasons for it.

Again, it could work just as well either way...mentioning or not mentioning. Let's say it was 50-50, and as a personal thing for Nolan it leaned towards not mentioning. Simple as that. Next subject.

And yeah, that too. They were at a crossroads, and simply chose option B.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

No one's saying they forgot...he's just not mentioned or brought up in conversation. You could have a mob crime today in NYC and not bring up Vincent Gigante or Joseph Colombo.....it doesn't mean they never existed.

This is a movie, not real life, even if it's supposed to be in a real world like setting. I don't feel like arguing for it anymore because the Joker said it best & pretty much sums it up. Nothing more to say.

 

[Mr. E Nygma]

I think too many people tend to make a mountain out of a mole hill in this situation. While I'd respect Nolan for not mentioning Joker because of his feelings toward Heath's early passing, I certainly wouldn't think poorly of him or the film if he did.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we do get a Joker mention. I mean, we've seen Bane holding up a photo of Harvey Dent. The Joker was just as important. And mentioning the Joker would not be cashing in on Heath's death. I think it would actually be quite the honor if he was mentioned, because it's still a great performance.

Think about it. If you are sitting in the theater on July 20th, especially full of hardcore fans at the midnight show, and the Joker is mentioned would your immediate thought be, "Oh how shameful they would reference a dead actor" or would you fight the urge to cheer? I think most people would choose the latter. I remember when just the shot of that joker card in Batman Begins got my whole theater cheering.

 

[KalMart]

This is a movie, not real life, even if it's supposed to be in a real world like setting. I don't feel like arguing for it anymore because the Joker said it best & pretty much sums it up. Nothing more to say.

And in this movie....do people somehow not know that it was the Joker who caused all this without saying?

Like if a person who was on one of those ferries...would they not remember that it was the Joker who put the explosives there, unless someone utters that name, and not just 'the ferry incident'? Have these movies in any way shown people to be that easily forgetful, or the viewer to need to be that spoon-fed?

What sort of movie is it that you think this is?


Look at it as mentioning 9/11...but not saying the name 'Bin Laden'...but, y'know...in a movie.

 

[craigdbfan]

I think too many people tend to make a mountain out of a mole hill in this situation. While I'd respect Nolan for not mentioning Joker because of his feelings toward Heath's early passing, I certainly wouldn't think poorly of him or the film if he did.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we do get a Joker mention. I mean, we've seen Bane holding up a photo of Harvey Dent. The Joker was just as important. And mentioning the Joker would not be cashing in on Heath's death. I think it would actually be quite the honor if he was mentioned, because it's still a great performance.

Think about it. If you are sitting in the theater on July 20th, especially full of hardcore fans at the midnight show, and the Joker is mentioned would your immediate thought be, "Oh how shameful they would reference a dead actor" or would you fight the urge to cheer? I think most people would choose the latter. I remember when just the shot of that joker card in Batman Begins got my whole theater cheering.

I wouldn't care because it doesn't affect TDKR either way. According to Nolan the Joker won't be mentioned. So that pretty much answers the question the OP was asking.

This discussion has pretty much run its course. It's just becoming a game of ring around the rosie.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

And in this movie....do people somehow not know that it was the Joker who caused all this without saying?

Like if a person who was on one of those ferries...would they not remember that it was the Joker who put the explosives there, unless someone utters that name, and not just 'the ferry incident'? Have these movies in any way shown people to be that easily forgetful, or the viewer to need to be that spoon-fed?

What sort of movie is it that you think this is?


Look at it as mentioning 9/11...but not saying the name 'Bin Laden'...but, y'know...in a movie.

Your argument is logical but to me the name "Joker" is too important in any Batman lore to be ignored if he appeared in that universe.

If they're all remembering Harvey Dent, then they're still remembering the era where he was most brave; standing up against the Joker, the guy who mutilated his face and killed his girlfriend.

When the Dent cover up comes out, how does Joker's name get completely omitted from that whole debacle when he was the one who corrupted Dent and he's the reason why Batman burdened himself with Dent's crimes; "The Joker cannot win".

I don't understand and never will why a mention of Joker's name would be bad for Heath's memory, or be out of context in this movie when the character's actions are still having consequences on the characters and events in this movie.

The official synopsis was Bruce is still recovering from the physical and mental trauma of his encounters with Joker and Dent in TDK.



http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/movies/more-from-the-cast-of-the-dark-knight-rises/8012

 

[KalMart]

Your argument is logical but to me the name "Joker" is too important in any Batman lore to be ignored if he appeared in that universe.

His responsibility is not ignored...if anyone in that movie remembers any bit of what happened in the past, they by default remember who was responsible. They just don't actually say his name. I'd recommend that you try to find a way to endure it, because it's not that big of a deal.

 

[BatLobster]

Again, as far we know that is not the official synopsis that will go on the official website or that's going on the back of the toy boxes. It's just something EW wrote up for their first big piece on TDKR, after they became privy to some information.

But agreed, the conversation has run its course and then some. Let's see the movie and come back and decide if we were missing a Joker reference afterwards.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

His responsibility is not ignored...if anyone in that movie remembers any bit of what happened in the past, they by default remember who was responsible. They just don't actually say his name. I'd recommend that you try to find a way to endure it, because it's not that big of a deal.

I'm not embarrassed, Kalmart!!

And like I've said countless times... no matter how many decisions Nolan made that I am not exactly fond of, I am going to see this movie because I'm so damn excited for it.

This will be the movie of movies...one of the greatest ever possible, in my opinion.

And I'm not sure if there will ever be a movie with as much hype as this ever, at least for a long time. Perhaps Avatar 2

 

[Norek]

This discussion has pretty much run its course. It's just becoming a game of ring around the rosie.

This discussion is like a full circle.

 

[KalMart]

I'm not embarrassed, Kalmart!!

And like I've said countless times... no matter how many decisions Nolan made that I am not exactly fond of, I am going to see this movie because I'm so damn excited for it.

This will be the movie of movies...one of the greatest ever possible, in my opinion.

And I'm not sure if there will ever be a movie with as much hype as this ever, at least for a long time. Perhaps Avatar 2

And maybe TDK...because of...that guy.....

 

[KalMart]

Say his name three times really fast...and maybe he'll show up in the movie.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

And maybe TDK...because of...that guy.....

Yeah but that's already been established

 

[KalMart]

2 out of 3 of these Batman movies do not have 'Batman' in the title.

 

[BuckeyeBatman]

it just seems to me, you don't need to mention the joker... i can't think of a good way to slide in an update on where he is, how he is or how the city is recovering from his attacks...

if all of this happened on the anniversary of the joker's attacks maybe... but were people talking about September 11th, 2001 on May 5th, 2009? possible but there HAS to be a reason and you cant just force it..

Bane's plan clearly calls for Harvey Dent references... it doesn't call for the joker's. maybe a lot of the people of gotham are still living in fear from the joker but 8 years is a long time and i doubt many people walk around saying things like wow this place is different since the joker.

 

[KalMart]

it just seems to me, you don't need to mention the joker... i can't think of a good way to slide in an update on where he is, how he is or how the city is recovering from his attacks...

if all of this happened on the anniversary of the joker's attacks maybe... but were people talking about September 11th, 2001 on May 5th, 2009? possible but there HAS to be a reason and you cant just force it..

Bane's plan clearly calls for Harvey Dent references... it doesn't call for the joker's. maybe a lot of the people of gotham are still living in fear from the joker but 8 years is a long time and i doubt many people walk around saying things like wow this place is different since the joker.

They probably were...but it doesn't mean they had to say the name 'Bin Laden' or even 'Twin Towers'. The event and those responsible speak for themselves via implication.

 

[jmc]

I'm sorry, but some of the replies here border on selfishness.