The Joker Thread - Part 1

[Mindreaper21]

Damn Bruce, that’s even deadlier than his gas.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Divine is a great starting point for Joker. Kill everyone now! Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat ****! Filth are my politics, filth is my life!

 

[shauner111]

The drugs that are being passed along in this thread...boy they seem strong..

 

[Rorschach2012]

The drugs that are being passed along in this thread...boy they seem strong..

Considering drug use has led to some of the greatest art ever created, I take that as a compliment.

Some of you have very little imagination for the potential of the character beyond amalgamations of what we have seen before. I want the next Joker to be something we don’t know we want. Something fresh and unexpected.

 

[Captain Tired]

In this instance I'm happy to be called narrow minded.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Fair enough. I see potential in a gender neutral Joker. I want a very effeminate but still completely terrifying Joker. Full horror. But very flirtatious and sexual without being crass. Frank N Furter, Curry’s Pennywise, David Bowie, Divine, Killer Bob, those are some influences I’d like to see for the next Joker.

 

[shauner111]

I want it to be different and I’m sure it will be. But some suggestions either don’t seem like the character at all or it’s just plain ugly (which is giving me the same reaction as the Leto fiasco).

The whole Toni Colette thing is really not for me. And the other thing was even worse. I’ve suggested Capullo Joker (but with a Reeves twist) and that certainly doesn’t feel like an amalgamation of what we’ve seen before.

I agree about effeminate Joker. But not to that degree.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I think Joker is gay and always has been. Joker (the character) should be male. But he can be played by male or female. I would love to see elements of drag and certain mannerisms that would be commonly associated with that community incorporated into the next iteration of the character.

I’m not the only one who thinks Joker is gay by the way! Neal Adams agrees with me!
Is The Joker Queer, Straight - Or Something Else Entirely?

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Not massively comfortable with queerness being played for horror that way unless it’s done real, real carefully. Miller’s Joker is about as far as I’m willing to go with it and even he’s pushing it.

 

[Captain Tired]

I don't mind the idea of the Joker being gay or at least putting on a pretence of it, in order to further discomfort Batman.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Hamill’s Joker line delivers are indistinguishable from Divine a lot of the time. It’s not like Joker is a bastion of masculinity. He’s extremely femme and camp, Caesar Romero played the character for God’s sake.

 

[Captain Tired]

You're arguing a point no one is disputing lol. The issue under dispute is having the character be played by a woman, not the character himself being feminine or camp.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Not massively comfortable with queerness being played for horror that way unless it’s done real, real carefully. Miller’s Joker is about as far as I’m willing to go with it and even he’s pushing it.

Miller’s Joker is borderline homophobic tbh. I think what Rorschach and I are seeing in someone like Divine is the unhinged quality, not nessacarily queerness.

 

[Eddie Dean]

You're arguing a point no one is disputing lol. The issue under dispute is having the character be played by a woman, not the character himself being feminine or camp.

Divine was not a woman.

 

[Astro13Zombie]

Joker has always been asexual in my mind.

 

[Captain Tired]

Divine was not a woman.

Where did I say he was?

 

[Eddie Dean]

Joker has always been asexual in my mind.

Sexuality doesn’t enter into the characterization of The Joker at all, but on the other hand nobody bats an eye when you bring up Frank Booth as inspiration for Joker and nobody talks about not wanting Joker to be a sadomasochist, but when Divine comes up the feeling I get from people reacting negatively to it is a bit “let’s not go too gay”.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Joker has always been asexual in my mind.

Yeah. He shouldn't be gay OR straight. He just...is if that makes sense.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Not massively comfortable with queerness being played for horror that way unless it’s done real, real carefully. Miller’s Joker is about as far as I’m willing to go with it and even he’s pushing it.

A sexual obsession with Batman is the only thing that makes sense. Queerness wouldn’t be what makes the character scary or horrific, it would be his appalling actions. I think it would be great in terms of representation for the greatest villain of all time to be depicted as queer. Some people will find ways to be offended, but I am confident it can be handled tastefully.

Divine is the prototype for the type of Joker I want to see. That character was offensive as hell but became a cultural icon.

ASHOSE planted the seeds for this type of Joker. It is the scariest iteration of the character to date. Additionally, Joker’s homosexuality would add another parallel between Joker and Gacy.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Sexuality doesn’t enter into the characterization of The Joker at all, but on the other hand nobody bats an eye when you bring up Frank Booth as inspiration for Joker and nobody talks about not wanting Joker to be a sadomasochist, but when Divine comes up the feeling I get from people reacting negatively to it is a bit “let’s not go too gay”.

I don't think it's about THAT necessarily as it is making it SEEM like he actually has a sexual preference. At least that's how it is for me.

 

[AndyTrevino]

A sexual obsession with Batman is the only thing that makes sense. Queerness wouldn’t be what makes the character scary or horrific, it would be his appalling actions. I think it would be great in terms of representation for the greatest villain of all time to be depicted as queer. Some people will find ways to be offended, but I am confident it can be handled tastefully.

Divine is the prototype for the type of Joker I want to see. That character was offensive as hell but became a cultural icon.

ASHOSE planted the seeds for this type of Joker. It is the scariest iteration of the character to date. Additionally, Joker’s homosexuality would add another parallel between Joker and Gacy.

I wouldn't mind him a more effeminate Joker (we haven't really had that in live-action yet, and ASHOSE and TDKR are among my favorite interpretations of the character) but he doesn't have to actually be gay.

 

[Eddie Dean]

That’s real rocky ground on be working on, especially with the history of queer coding villains. Joker shouldn’t be sexually attracted to ANYONE. The character already stands in opposition to Batman in enough ways that any sort of sexual attraction only adds an uncomfortable layer to things that could potentially very wrong. Joker is about chaos, madness, insanity, not sexuality.

 

[Captain Tired]

It's been a longtime since I last read TDKR, so forgive me for asking, but what exactly do some people here find to be so homophobic about the Joker's depiction in it? Is it just the context of Miller explicitly depicting this vile murderer as being homosexual in a generally more homophobic era? I'm not looking to ruffle anyone's feathers up by asking, I'd just like to understand.

 

[AndyTrevino]

That’s real rocky ground on be working on, especially with the history of queer coding villains. Joker shouldn’t be sexually attracted to ANYONE. The character already stands in opposition to Batman in enough ways that any sort of sexual attraction only adds an uncomfortable layer to things that could potentially very wrong. Joker is about chaos, madness, insanity, not sexuality.

This is exactly why that petition a few years ago kind of annoyed me. It makes The Joker seem too human. That, and it's just not something he needs to care about.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I wouldn't mind him a more effeminate Joker (we haven't really had that in live-action yet, and ASHOSE and TDKR are among my favorite interpretations of the character) but he doesn't have to actually be gay.

It’s tricky because in a lot of ways Joker is coded as “other” or “camp”, which comes from a long (and problematic) line of queer coding villains, which is still a controversial topic in queer communities. The way (especially) Miller and Morrison use Joker’s “queerness” verges a little to deeply into homophobic territory for me, where as Caeser Romero’s (a very important queer icon) seems more like a celebration of those aspects of the character.