The Joker Thread - Part 1

[BattleAngel]

Just watched the clip again, and did notice one thing - this guy's finger's are truly screwed up, like he's biting his nails CONSTANTLY. Which also leads me to believe that he could be tearing out his own hair, just from the nerves of being locked up, and having whatever horrible skin condition he has.

...All to say, we might not be stuck with bald-ass baby bird Joker for ever haha.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I'd been expecting something like this for months actually. I had plenty of time to adjust to the idea of a monstrous-looking Joker and embrace this concept and now I love it

 

[AndyTrevino]

Just watched the clip again, and did notice one thing - this guy's finger's are truly screwed up, like he's biting his nails CONSTANTLY. Which also leads me to believe that he could be tearing out his own hair, just from the nerves of being locked up, and having whatever horrible skin condition he has.

...All to say, we might not be stuck with bald-ass baby bird Joker for ever haha.

I can't help but feel like that's also the result of whatever disease he has. It's almost mangy

 

[Doctor Jones]

I was under the impression his hair and marks on his body are a result of the congenial disease going beyond just his face. I don't get where people are getting the acid bath stuff.

 

[J.Drangal]

I was under the impression his hair and marks on his body are a result of the congenial disease going beyond just his face. I don't get where people are getting the acid bath stuff.

Maybe they're inconsciously reminded of our dear Emil ?

More seriously, I'm reading this Joker look like you, being the result of a condition. I really like the direction and the result, but in my opinion, they'll have to be careful not overdoing it. There's details like his fingers apparently bloodstaining the paper handed to him that could give an impression of inevitable decay, as if the character was severly ill and his days numbered... Which wouldn't be ideal ahah.

 

[Marvel united]

Batman's final speech in the movie was about scars and how they can either destroy us or transform us.

The design was obviously intended to invoke some level of terror, no doubt, but I think it's also meant more to directly play on that concept. Except here, he is both destroyed and transformed by his physical deformity.

Again, why do this with the Joker? Why not any of the other rogues where a story like this would be much more fitting? It's weird to use the Joker as a vehicle to tell a dark version of the ' Elephant Man' storyline.

I would hardly equate this to Leto. Keoghan's Joker was born looking this way and had to suffer whatever consequences as a result of it. It shaped him. Leto's Joker decided to walk into a tattoo parlor one day and turned out to have remarkably ****ty taste in ink.

The Joker is/was a gangster, and Leto was obviously meant to a modern play on that idea, with the grills, tattoos and chains. There's always going to be an in-story/theme reason to justify a terrible design, that doesn't change the fact that the design itself is overdone, and tasteless. Where Leto is tryhard "hood", Keoghan is tryhard "scary".

Reeves talks about him having a congenial disease where he can't stop smiling, but to me, that reads as an excuse to experiment with monster makeup, because the smile isn't even emphasized, in fact, he's only even smiling on one side of his face.

It's like Reeves drew up some concepts for Two-Face, and repurposed them for Joker

 

[Eddie Dean]

Ok cool

 

[Drop Head]

I think we should measure our judgements a little bit. We've barely seen him, let alone ALL of him. The make-up could be added, and the prosthetics toned down once we get a full fledged look.

If that's what you're looking for at least. For me, I love it the base design. It's something new on screen and the look is just so creepy/different. It really matches Reeve's "horror" vibes too.

 

[Boom]

Again, why do this with the Joker? Why not any of the other rogues where a story like this would be much more fitting? It's weird to use the Joker as a vehicle to tell a dark version of the ' Elephant Man' storyline.


The Joker is/was a gangster, and Leto was obviously meant to a modern play on that idea, with the grills, tattoos and chains. There's always going to be an in-story/theme reason to justify a terrible design, that doesn't change the fact that the design itself is overdone, and tasteless. Where Leto is tryhard "hood", Keoghan is tryhard "scary".

Reeves talks about him having a congenial disease where he can't stop smiling, but to me, that reads as an excuse to experiment with monster makeup, because the smile isn't even emphasized, in fact, he's only even smiling on one side of his face.

It's like Reeves drew up some concepts for Two-Face, and repurposed them for Joker

... Because he wanted to do it with his version of the Joker? Sorta that simple.

You want to call it "tasteless" or "try hard," without any context or insight into the characterization, knock yourself out.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I was under the impression his hair and marks on his body are a result of the congenial disease going beyond just his face. I don't get where people are getting the acid bath stuff.

But his hair is also green, and presumably he isn't dying it while in prison. And his skin is near white. So I don't think either of those are due to his congenital disease. Which leaves the most obvious answer, in that he took a chemical bath.

 

[Boom]

But his hair is also green, and presumably he isn't dying it while in prison. And his skin is near white. So I don't think either of those are due to his congenital disease. Which leaves the most obvious answer, in that he took a chemical bath.

It appears that just the tips of his hair were green. So if he had been incarcerated for a year, his hair simply grew out and each time he got it cut there was less green left.

I'm thinking he dyes it.

 

[AndyTrevino]

What I like about it is that, depending on how he's shot, he's got that classic Joker silhouette.

 

[Drop Head]

What I like about it is that, depending on how he's shot, he's got that classic Joker silhouette.

View attachment 54459

Yeah, not just visually but the entire scene screams Joker, so I'm totally on board!

 

[Art Vandelay]

It appears that just the tips of his hair were green. So if he had been incarcerated for a year, his hair simply grew out and each time he got it cut there was less green left..

It's hard to tell, but I'm not sure just the tips are green, I don't think hair dye lasts that long anway. Probably no longer than a month, so it's definitely not from the time he was first incarcerated. And I really doubt he's dying it. While contraband wouldn't be unusual, hair dye is probably unlikely. Even if he did dye it, the prison would have him wash it out.

 

[DKDetective]

I was under the impression his hair and marks on his body are a result of the congenial disease going beyond just his face. I don't get where people are getting the acid bath stuff.

Well, Reeves only mentioned his smile being related to his congenital disease. I would think if other aspects of his disfigurement were related, Reeves would have mentioned it. He seems pretty open about that oncept.

Also, if things like the blisters, wounds, etc. were disease-related, rather acid bath related injuries that are slowly healing, it would make me worry about this Joker being pretty fragile.

 

[C Prometheus]

Well, Reeves only mentioned his smile being related to his congenital disease. I would think if other aspects of his disfigurement were related, Reeves would have mentioned it. He seems pretty open about that oncept.

Also, if things like the blisters, wounds, etc. were disease-related, rather acid bath related injuries that are slowly healing, it would make me worry about this Joker being pretty fragile.

Considering the full quotes Reeves has provided in interviews with both IGN and Variety each go out of their way to establish that:

1. This Joker was born with a congenital disease
2. Didn't fall into a vat of acid or have the self-induced Glasgow Smile like Ledger
3. Compared this Joker to The Man Who Laughs, Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera and David Lynch's The Elephant Man

Occam's Razor would determine that this Joker didn't fall in a vat of acid. The numerous deformities he's clearly suffering from all source back to whatever his congenital disease is. Perhaps the wounds on his scalp, hands and fingers are due to an itching sensation he struggles with?

As for Joker being fragile, at this point, I think we'd have to accept it in the same way we accept that TDK's Harvey Dent went days without painkillers, plastic surgery or skin grafts and then broke out of a hospital and journeyed all across the city to kill multiple people and survive a car crash- all while missing half of his face and exposing raw muscles and bone to the elements.

 

[BatsAndNights]

Well, Reeves only mentioned his smile being related to his congenital disease. I would think if other aspects of his disfigurement were related, Reeves would have mentioned it. He seems pretty open about that oncept.

Also, if things like the blisters, wounds, etc. were disease-related, rather acid bath related injuries that are slowly healing, it would make me worry about this Joker being pretty fragile.

To be fair, it's kinda on brand for Joker to look fragile but actually have some hidden strength/combat prowess. Joker in the comics and Arkham games is ridiculously thin, looking borderline malnourished but can also fight Batman to a standstill. So I don't think him looking fragile is necessarily an indication that he is fragile, going by how he is in the source material

 

[J.Drangal]

Considering the full quotes Reeves has provided in interviews with both IGN and Variety each go out of their way to establish that:

1. This Joker was born with a congenital disease
2. Didn't fall into a vat of acid or have the self-induced Glasgow Smile like Ledger
3. Compared this Joker to The Man Who Laughs, Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera and David Lynch's The Elephant Man

Occam's Razor would determine that this Joker didn't fall in a vat of acid. The numerous deformities he's clearly suffering from all source back to whatever his congenital disease is. Perhaps the wounds on his scalp, hands and fingers are due to an itching sensation he struggles with?

As for Joker being fragile, at this point, I think we'd have to accept it in the same way we accept that TDK's Harvey Dent went days without painkillers, plastic surgery or skin grafts and then broke out of a hospital and journeyed all across the city to kill multiple people and survive a car crash- all while missing half of his face and exposing raw muscles and bone to the elements.

It's an interesting point, and I was really expecting that comparison to be made after my comment about Joker's possibly fragile health.

I myself wondered how the perception of this Joker's injuries could differ from Two-Face ones. My conclusion is that for the latter, it is perfectly accepted that his wounds are an integral part of the character. Whether we depict it through realistic representation or not, there's a deal with the audience that this character has half of his face completely destroyed without that weakening him. In the same way that nobody is expecting Freddy Krueger to ask for skin cream.
But with the Joker, it's a bit different imo. If something like the Glasgow's smile works no problem because it's focusing on his mouth, which his most distinctive feature, the addition of other wounds is, I think, more likely to be misread. Because it's not part of his traditional look, there's a risk to have some people (wrongly) understanding that the character could be in bad shape, diminished. On an other hand, I think the scene does a great job demonstrating that this Joker isn't really suffering and in full control. But you'll get idea.

In any case, I completely admire what the crews of this film are able to do in terms of make-up. The quality of the rendering is truly incredible !

EDIT : @DeadlyWest I didn't really think of it right away, but you're right that the Joker had been depicted as looking sickly skinny before. I would argue that it's still a bit different than bloody wounds, but I still get your point. It's just for the sake of discussion anyway, I'm on board with this Joker ^^

 

[Boom]

In defense of those who find this appearance too grotesque, one of the symptoms of Angelman Syndrome is a "permanent" smile, and needless to say it is not even remotely as extreme as this is. So there was a way to do a real-world perma-smile with a more subdued aesthetic.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

I am so in love with this look, my favorite part is the exaggerated eyebrows. The eyebrows are a key part of Joker’s look, and recent iterations haven’t emphasized this nearly enough imo

 

[C Prometheus]

Oh man, this is a great video essay breakdown on the characterization and writing of the deleted Arkham scene. Not a video about Easter Eggs or theorizing what comes next, just a hard, straight-forward analysis of the construction of the Deleted Scene.

 

[BatLobster]

Oh man, this is a great video essay breakdown on the characterization and writing of the deleted Arkham scene. Not a video about Easter Eggs or theorizing what comes next, just a hard, straight-forward analysis of the construction of the Deleted Scene.

This was a cool breakdown. I do think it's a very well-written scene that conveys a lot of information in a smooth way, and I think the characterization of The Joker is spot-on in terms of the character I know while feeling like a fresh enough take. So those are positives for me.

I have to say though...the first thing he talks about in the video is how important first impressions are.

It's hard for me to get around the fact the first impression of this Joker was a scene I didn't care for in the movie, and then a deleted scene that I watched on Youtube. The overall feeling for me is that this got off on the wrong foot. It's just kind of hard for me not to compare that to things from the past, especially knowing how effective a great Joker reveal can be. I just wish that side of things could've been given a bit more love. I feel like they could've been more patient with how they rolled this out the reveal of this Joker, especially with the Arkham show coming. It seems like a missed opportunity to build up some intrigue around him. I feel more strongly than ever than the scene at the end should not have been included in the film.

Maybe there was no 'epic' way to do it since they're going with the 'media res' starting point to their relationship and frankly just the fact that we've had so many Jokers as of late, it doesn't feel as special. I just find myself wishing they had shown a little more restraint here.

 

[Boom]

To be fair, we don't really know that the Arkham show is going to come to fruition. They've been working on this spinoff for a while now and it's already gone through a major change both in concept and showrunner. It sounds to me like there are a lot of ideas and they're having trouble narrowing the scope.

 

[BatLobster]

To be fair, we don't really know that the Arkham show is going to come to fruition. They've been working on this spinoff for a while now and it's already gone through a major change both in concept and showrunner. It sounds to me like there are a lot of ideas and they're having trouble narrowing the scope.

Even so though, there's still going to be more movies. It's not like this was Reeves' one and only chance to establish The Joker in this world. Overall it just feels like they made a short fan film while they were filming the movie and then decided to release it.

I get that it scratches a certain itch- I think the Hannibal Lecter dynamic where Batman consults Joker in Arkham about another villain has always been something fans have talked about seeing. So maybe the opportunity here was just too unique for Reeves to pass up here with his take on the Riddler being what it was.

I guess I'm still just getting used to the idea that the canon for this world is going to be be built with a lot of materials outside the actual movies.

I'm old fashioned AF, but I think I would've actually loved it more if the viral marketing led to fan screenings of this in theaters. Or a special screening of The Batman that had this scene in the film. Just something to build up the allure. Let the leaked footage circulate, only adds to the hype IMO!

Just make more of an "event" out of it, ya know? Seeing the IMAX prologue to TDK at the viral fan screening is one of my most treasured memories as a fan. I miss that aspect of these movies. The Youtube release just made it feel so mundane to me. It feels a bit cheapened. I think that's my biggest hangup here. We live in a fan service era, and this just feels like another obligatory cog in that machine.

Sorry if that's an overly cynical take, but I just wanted to get that off my chest. I think that's at the root at what's felt somewhat 'off' to me about this. The more I've seen the scene, the more I actually appreciate it-- Barry's performance, the writing, etc. as an isolated thing. I just overall could've lived without seeing it just yet. The movie is plenty to digest on its own.

 

[lime]