The Kick-Ass Thread

[DACrowe]

....on the whole Katie thing.

Either way she was a cliché and used for different narrative devices in both materials. The comics are actually much darker and far more cynical and snarky than the film (which is saying a lot, given how sarcastic the film is). Millar openly hates emotional investment in characters and unless he is trying to handle Superman or Marvel's big guns (when he wrote for Spider-Man and wrote Civil War) he avoids it. In fact he tries to torpedo it. So, for a joke, he had the hero not get the girl. And on top of that, he had the girl's *****ebag boyfriend beet the hero up and, rather absurdly and incomprehensibly, had said girl send the hero a video of her going down on said *****ebag.

The film wanted to be subversively funny, but also highly entertaining. This included breaking taboos and showing things not normally seen in superhero movies. In this case it is the hero banging the girl's brains out. All the relationships in the Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men and Fantastic Four films are very chaste or at least are presented very sterile. Vaughn chose to torpedo that. He also wanted the film to have a kooky Superbad/Judd Apatow sense of humor. And in that, rather impossibly, the geek always gets the girl and Apatow revels in that in crude fashion. Vaughn mimicked this.

Now one can argue that the comics is a more thoughtful deconstruction of superhero clichés for the direction it took or that the film created more drama at the end by putting Dave's relationship on the line to add drama in the third act. Whichever argument is fair. But each is rather irrelevant to the overall story and to say either is a deal breaker is rather petty.

However, the changes of Big Daddy's backstory are much more crucial and major changes to the overall narrative and subtext of the piece. I personally think the deconstruction was complete from Dave Lizewski, Chris D'Armco, "some Armenian guy" and even the subtle tragedy of Mindy MaCready that Millar's last minute twist was forced and suffocatingly cynical. I personally think the film kept the meaning of the piece while improving the narrative by adding heart to Big Daddy and Hit Girl's relationship and origins.

My 2 cents on the changes.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea the bit in the comic when Mindy goes "Can i have a hug" after slaughtering everyone was so forced and ridiculous it just made me cringe to be honest.

I'm not really a fan of Millar's writing in general. I think the guy can come up with really great concepts. Wanted, Civil War and Kick Ass were all great, great concepts. But they weren't executed that well IMO.

Wanted and Kick Ass were deconstructions of superheroes and supervillains, but they were so cynical and full of blatant shock tactics i couldn't really take them seriously. Especially Wanted.

Civil War changed characters with decades of history into people they just are not. Reed Richards is the best case of that. Sure he always thinks logically and maybe the SRA was the logical thing. But the way he treated Sue was just sooooo out of character. And the whole "well i did some calculations and i have a magical equation formula that can predict the fuure" thing was just ridiculous.

Also the Ultimates could of been clever satire, but in the end it just turned into typical Millar shock tactics. I mean why make Wanda and Pietro incestful lovers for example? Seriously? There was absolutely no need for that other than to cause a stir.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

In fact he tries to torpedo it. So, for a joke, he had the hero not get the girl. And on top of that, he had the girl's *****ebag boyfriend beet the hero up and, rather absurdly and incomprehensibly, had said girl send the hero a video of her going down on said *****ebag.

actually they were photos, not a video, and it wasn't her that sent them, it was her friends sending them to Dave.

so you were wrong on 2 counts there, just saying

 

[david icke]

Yea the bit in the comic when Mindy goes "Can i have a hug" after slaughtering everyone was so forced and ridiculous it just made me cringe to be honest.

absolutely not 'forced' or 'ridiculous' at all, in fact quite the opposite.
remember the whole, 'get revenge, grieve later' talk? well, that moment signalled the start of the grieving process.
if there had been no moment like that after the carnage, the character of hit-girl would have had no humanity. jeez...so a little moment of genuine humanity, showing that behind all the training and brainwashing, she is just a little girl, is forced and ridiculous?
you were saying the same thing about emotional moments in joss whedon's productions, i think it's posssible you get a little too embaressed too easily when it comes to certain types of scenes.
you're the first person i've seen complain about that scene everyone else i've seen comment on it gave it applause.

 

[david icke]

actually they were photos, not a video, and it wasn't her that sent them, it was her friends sending them to Dave.

so you were wrong on 2 counts there, just saying

hardly errors that change what he was saying about the concept.
it's still just as unrealistic, if not even moreso with her friends deciding to do that for her.

edit: and i meant to say this last night...but i can see why they changed it for the film, there's not much mileage in the katie story in the book, although funny and painfully real, it's a one joke climax. ok for the book, but it would've been just a minor blip in the movie.
and that was a good point about showing the hero banging the girl's brains out on film, you never get that, the fantastic four films would have drastically improved their box office if they had shown what reed was capable of on the fantasti-mattress.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

absolutely not 'forced' or 'ridiculous' at all, in fact quite the opposite.
remember the whole, 'get revenge, grieve later' talk? well, that moment signalled the start of the grieving process.
if there had been no moment like that after the carnage, the character of hit-girl would have had no humanity. jeez...so a little moment of genuine humanity, showing that behind all the training and brainwashing, she is just a little girl, is forced and ridiculous?
you were saying the same thing about emotional moments in joss whedon's productions, i think it's posssible you get a little too embaressed too easily when it comes to certain types of scenes.
you're the first person i've seen complain about that scene everyone else i've seen comment on it gave it applause.

I'm not saying it shouldn't of been there at all. I'm saying doing that when the blood is still literally dripping from her swords just seemed out of place IMO.

The whole book was cynical and what not, that scene just seemed to be Millar throwing a sentimental bone out there.

I just didn't like it the way it was done so quickly after they slaughtered everyone. I'm not saying something like that shouldn't of been in there at all.

 

[Drz]

Also the Ultimates could of been clever satire, but in the end it just turned into typical Millar shock tactics. I mean why make Wanda and Pietro incestful lovers for example? Seriously? There was absolutely no need for that other than to cause a stir.

That would be Jeph Loeb. Millar had it ambigious whenever they we're just really loving brother-sister or we're they actually ****ing each other. Jeph Loeb decided to make them sexual lovers and on top of that: Downright villains. >_______________<

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well Millar planted the seeds. Loeb isn't even worth talking about...

 

[david icke]

I'm not saying it shouldn't of been there at all. I'm saying doing that when the blood is still literally dripping from her swords just seemed out of place IMO.

The whole book was cynical and what not, that scene just seemed to be Millar throwing a sentimental bone out there.

I just didn't like it the way it was done so quickly after they slaughtered everyone. I'm not saying something like that shouldn't of been in there at all.

well to me it felt right for that reason of timing, she was hit by the emotional impact of the fact, as soon as the fireworks died down, as there was nothing else to occupy her mind, it being even moreso realistic as she is just a little kid and he was her whole world.

edit: also, it was good writing as it was almost quite methodical the way she asked for a hug, and that's in keeping with the character of hit-girl, the way she has been trained/brainwashed, 'this is this, that needs that', she almost plainly states the facts of her being a little girl whose daddy has just died and so needs a hug, just like how a gun would need a certain bullet.
A lesser writer would have just had her burst into tears in the moment she felt the full impact, and had kick-ass go over to hug her.
i have read of fok missing this moment from the movie, and i have to say, thinking about it, I miss it too.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Yea the bit in the comic when Mindy goes "Can i have a hug" after slaughtering everyone was so forced and ridiculous it just made me cringe to be honest.

I'm not really a fan of Millar's writing in general. I think the guy can come up with really great concepts. Wanted, Civil War and Kick Ass were all great, great concepts. But they weren't executed that well IMO.

Wanted and Kick Ass were deconstructions of superheroes and supervillains, but they were so cynical and full of blatant shock tactics i couldn't really take them seriously. Especially Wanted.

Civil War changed characters with decades of history into people they just are not. Reed Richards is the best case of that. Sure he always thinks logically and maybe the SRA was the logical thing. But the way he treated Sue was just sooooo out of character. And the whole "well i did some calculations and i have a magical equation formula that can predict the fuure" thing was just ridiculous.

Also the Ultimates could of been clever satire, but in the end it just turned into typical Millar shock tactics. I mean why make Wanda and Pietro incestful lovers for example? Seriously? There was absolutely no need for that other than to cause a stir.

This. Millar does come up with great concepts. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't have a Wanted film or a Kick-ass films, both imo are on another level than the comic versions.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

I'm not really a fan of Millar's writing in general. I think the guy can come up with really great concepts. Wanted, Civil War and Kick Ass were all great, great concepts. But they weren't executed that well IMO.

NEMESIS. Please, explain that.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I mean the concept of Kick Ass is brilliant, and pretty unique. Same with Wanted, where it was about supervillains after they killed the remaining superheroes. Haven't read it in years so might be sketchy on that.

And yea, Civil War was a great concept too. Superhuman registration and the problems implementing that brings.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

Still didn't explain Nemesis.

 

[roach]

I mean the concept of Kick Ass is brilliant, and pretty unique. Same with Wanted, where it was about supervillains after they killed the remaining superheroes. Haven't read it in years so might be sketchy on that.

And yea, Civil War was a great concept too. Superhuman registration and the problems implementing that brings.

where CW failed for me is the mischaracterizations of the lead characters. Everything would have been avoided if Cap and Tony had sat down and talked...but its more "entertaining" when they go after each other with a tenacity they never showed going after their own archenemies.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

Actually, Roach, Cap and Stark DID sit down and talk, it ended with them fist fighting.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Still didn't explain Nemesis.

Ohhhh, i thought you was calling me a nemesis!

I've never read it.

where CW failed for me is the mischaracterizations of the lead characters. Everything would have been avoided if Cap and Tony had sat down and talked...but its more "entertaining" when they go after each other with a tenacity they never showed going after their own archenemies.

Exactly my criticism about Civil War. But as Aesop said, Cap and Stark did try to talk things out in the destroyed Avengers Mansion, but it didn't work out.

The last Iron Man issue of Civil War "The Confession" was heartbreakingly brilliant though.

There was a lot of brilliant things in Civil War to be fair. But there was a lot of crap things too, like Reed Richards creating Clor... going against everything Reed Richards stands for. And his stupid equation that predicted the future thing.

 

[DACrowe]

I'm not saying it shouldn't of been there at all. I'm saying doing that when the blood is still literally dripping from her swords just seemed out of place IMO.

The whole book was cynical and what not, that scene just seemed to be Millar throwing a sentimental bone out there.

I just didn't like it the way it was done so quickly after they slaughtered everyone. I'm not saying something like that shouldn't of been in there at all.

I think it's a fair point that it was a rather serious moment in such a sarcastic book. But I liked it. I would not have minded it in the movie, but Vaughn went for a much more fun, satisfying and, pardon the pun, kick-ass ending with the jetpack, bazooka and heroic flyaway. The very pessimistic hug moment in the book would have been too depressing in Vaughn's grin-inducing ending.

But I appreciate it in the book and while I prefer the film, I seriously respect Millar for going there. But considering how arbitrary and mean-spirited the last minute twist on Big Daddy is, despite the subtext it reveals (which was already developed in KA, HG and RM), it just is overly pessimistic and hurts the book. I was saying that change in the movie made BD and HG very likable and sympathetic despite their screwed up relationship. It is what made the movie better.

 

[DACrowe]

Actually, Roach, Cap and Stark DID sit down and talk, it ended with them fist fighting.

Perhaps. But turning Iron Man into a metal-wearing George W. Bush? Turn Reed Richards into a neo-fascist? Turning Spider-Man into a lame schmuck who does the most asinine things in the world for shock value?

CW was a cool concept that was terribly executed, I have to say.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I have to be fair to the characterization of Stark though, in The Confession it sorta explained his actions well. And Tony was totally devestated by it, he was torn to ribbons emotionally. He honestly thought he was doing the right thing for the long term, and probably was. His thinking was that sometimes you have to make the hard, perhaps morally wrong decisions to make the right decisions, if you know what i mean?

But yea the characterization of Reed was just totally, totally wrong.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Personally, I think the changes made the film from the book were for the better, I personally prefer the film. I preferred Dave getting the girl, and I absolutely 100% the changes to BD and HG's backstory.

In the comic, I sorta WANTED BD to die after the **** he had put his little girl through all for a fantasy, but in the movie, while keeping it personal, it made the movie relationship between the two much more touching, I genuinlu wanted HG to save BD in the warehouse, so much so I was squirming in my seat the longer she took doing so. At the end as well, I really wanted HG to get back at Frank D'Amico, so much so I was actually willing her too in the cinema.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

^My thoughts exactly man.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Wow... you are a very shallow person ain't you?

So people are only attracted to people because of looks yea?

She got to know Dave's personality through being his friend at first. Then she started to find him attractive because he had a great personality.

Millar is not correct. In the comic the ending with Katie was done for a shallow laugh.

The way the film did it added some more depth to the characters.

Couldnt agree more, I have actually had girls tell me they didnt find me attractive until they got to know me, looks arent everything.

What they did in the movie was much better than in the book IMO.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Here is another track i loved. I'm a raver so it holds a special place in my heart anyway



The Prodigy have gotta do the soundtrack for Deadpool!!!!!

 

[Raiden]

Personally, I think the changes made the film from the book were for the better, I personally prefer the film. I preferred Dave getting the girl, and I absolutely 100% the changes to BD and HG's backstory.

In the comic, I sorta WANTED BD to die after the **** he had put his little girl through all for a fantasy, but in the movie, while keeping it personal, it made the movie relationship between the two much more touching, I genuinlu wanted HG to save BD in the warehouse, so much so I was squirming in my seat the longer she took doing so. At the end as well, I really wanted HG to get back at Frank D'Amico, so much so I was actually willing her too in the cinema.

Well said. Although I never read the Kick-Ass comics, I read all the changes between the comics and film and I must say the film >>>>>>>>> comics, which is weird since the source material is often always better than the adaptation. I think Vaughn has alot to do with the improvement we saw in the film, and it makes me feel more confident that he'd make the same good judgement with X-Men: First Class.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Well said. Although I never read the Kick-Ass comics, I read all the changes between the comics and film and I must say the film >>>>>>>>> comics, which is weird since the source material is often always better than the adaptation. I think Vaughn has alot to do with the improvement we saw in the film, and it makes me feel more confident that he'd make the same good judgement with X-Men: First Class.

Unless the source Material was made by Mark Millar, which is slowly becoming a pattern