The kyle vs. Hal thread

[Keyser Soze]

The difference (which I know is obvious to you) is that none of this was done for Kyle, because Kyle didn't exist yet. Hal wasn't shoved out of the way to make room for Ron Marz's favorite Green Lantern, he just got hatcheted. That's different. It sucks for Hal fans, but it's different.

See, I really don't think you understand what the problem for Kyle fans is. It's not that Kyle isn't the star of the book. (It is a problem, but that's not what gets us in a rage.) The problem is that Kyle is repeatedly, over and over again, brutalized as a character, for the purpose of building up Hal. Kyle is barely recognizable, after all of the sycophantic, weak-willed, lame re-characterization that Johns has put him through.

Repeated brutalization, over and over again? Hasn't Johns only used Kyle, like, twice since Rebirth? And we can't include any of his appearances in Green Lantern Corps in this "brutalization", since according to recent arguments here Kyle's cool moments in GLC are reflective of Tomasi being the lone rebellious voice of justice standing against the corruption of DC editorial and their anti-Kyle agenda.

Though I've been accused of making the sweeping claims about Kyle fans, you are the one making one here by saying that THE problem for Kyle fans is the perceived character assassination going on throughout DC, not the fact that he's not the main character anymore. Yet I've talked with plenty of Kyle fans who say their problem is the character becoming sorely neglected and underused, while one says he thinks Johns' GL run is one of the greatest in the title's history, and his sole problem with it is that he wishes he was getting pretty much the exact same story, only with Kyle in the leading role, and Hal playing support over in GLC. Not everyone - not every Kyle fan, even - is buying into the conspiracy theory you are.

 

[The Major]

This debate is tiresome. No one side will ever be happy or win because, as we know, it's not about what the fans think-- it's about what the editorial people decide. 10 years ago, Hal was getting the shaft and Kyle was on the up&up. Today, it is reversed because DC has decided that the silver age is the direction they are interested in taking their company.

Agreed.

Now, seeing the massive veiny erection DC has for Grant Morrision right now, I would not be surprised within a few years, that his classic JLA line-up will be back and Kyle will be front and center once again. The 90's will return gentlemen, and on that day you will hear the silver-age fans *****ing just as much as we do today.

Just put Morrison on a solo Kyle title instead. Kyle doesn't need to share the spotlight with the JLA to have a good title.

 

[cerealkiller182]

None of the GLs have been multilayered to me. Hal is put on a pedestal and plays up his archetype when he should be better. Kyle is debased usually in comparison to Hal. Guy plays up his archetype, but its kind of his role. John Stewart has pretty much faded away and is the one who is truly treated like he doesnt have personality. They all need work. Balance in all their personalities so they arnt such archetypes. This isnt about past appearances, but within the recent big picture GL stuff.

And I dont really find hot-head fighter pilot to be the same as personality, not sure why many others do.

If I had to pick a favorite it would probably be Guy cause hes the only one living up to his potential (despite many of you probably disagreeing with me)

 

[Hush]

Repeated brutalization, over and over again? Hasn't Johns only used Kyle, like, twice since Rebirth? And we can't include any of his appearances in Green Lantern Corps in this "brutalization", since according to recent arguments here Kyle's cool moments in GLC are reflective of Tomasi being the lone rebellious voice of justice standing against the corruption of DC editorial and their anti-Kyle agenda.

Even if he has only used him twice it has been SCW that has stung Kyle fans the most, how can a character that is so strong that he at two points was god-like, be taken over by Parallax? Even when Johns wrote him as the ONE singular GL that could resist him/it in Rebirth!? This thing took over Ganthet and yet Kyle was immune! Then in exactly 1 issue Kyle was kidnapped, had ION ripped from his body and infected with Parallax. 3 ass ****ings in one damn 22 page issue!

I mean you can't tell me that would'nt piss you off if it happened to Hal/King of The Universe. Granted Hal had Parallax happen to him it was in no way done to the way it was Kyle, utter humiliation. SO yeah I seem to think DC does have a Anti-Kyle vendetta. Sorry if i sound harsh but damn to treat a character that had good sales for 10 years like he contracted aids or something is ********.

 

[CBG]

Hal's alright, but I grew up on Kyle, so I prefer him more.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I mean you can't tell me that would'nt piss you off if it happened to Hal/King of The Universe. Granted Hal had Parallax happen to him it was in no way done to the way it was Kyle, utter humiliation. SO yeah I seem to think DC does have a Anti-Kyle vendetta. Sorry if i sound harsh but damn to treat a character that had good sales for 10 years like he contracted aids or something is ********.

Dude. The freakin' Joker is my favourite comics character. So I'm used to my favourite character getting pwned and punked every time there's a new villain on the block that writers want to take the shortcut into making an insta-badass. But I live with it, because I know that if he was poorly handled in one story, there will be another story down the line that will be more to my liking.

 

[Hush]

Dude. The freakin' Joker is my favourite comics character. So I'm used to my favourite character getting pwned and punked every time there's a new villain on the block that writers want to take the shortcut into making an insta-badass. But I live with it, because I know that if he was poorly handled in one story, there will be another story down the line that will be more to my liking.

You statement has no merit to what we are debating! Hal is and established character and so is Kyle, so why on earth would you need to undermine a established character so that you can have a established character look good? Hal isnt the new kid on the block and when Kyle was he didnt go pwn Hal-as you so eloquently put it-to look good. He just did things of his own accord that made him a bad ass of his own right. Hal came back and Johns felt it was needed to go ahead and tear down all that made Kyle in one damn issue!

 

[Gilpesh]

Johns felt it was needed to go ahead and tear down all that made Kyle in one damn issue!

Really? That's all that made Kyle.... that sounds like one very boring and unoriginal character.

 

[Keyser Soze]

You statement has no merit to what we are debating! Hal is and established character and so is Kyle, so why on earth would you need to undermine a established character so that you can have a established character look good? Hal isnt the new kid on the block and when Kyle was he didnt go pwn Hal-as you so eloquently put it-to look good. He just did things of his own accord that made him a bad ass of his own right. Hal came back and Johns felt it was needed to go ahead and tear down all that made Kyle in one damn issue!

You're missing my point completely. You said I wouldn't like it if I had to see my "favourite character Hal" get beaten on and humiliated. And I said I see my "favourite character" get beaten on and humiliated all the time, but I don't put it down to some deep-seated editorial agenda against the character, and get all bitter and jaded over it.

But if you want a statement that has more direct, easy to understand merit to what we are debating, fine. No, I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at seeing Hal being laid low. See, I actually don't think Hal Jordan is King of the Universe. Nor do I think he needs to be constantly portrayed that way, or any signs of weakness would be reflective of DC hating the character and conspiring against him. I'd be happy to see a storyline with Hal being put through the wringer, and really getting left in dire straits, and coming across as flawed or even vulnerable. Because I think it could provide interesting ammunition for character development down the line. I'm not too short-sighted to always keep in mind that comics aren't real, that "my" guy doesn't always have to be winning. It's drama, not sport, not a competition.

And while you've continued your Hal bashing, you have yet to answer my challenge to man up and explain what it is about Kyle you like, on his own merits, rather than solely defining him by how he relates to Hal in your eyes.

 

[WompuM]

Even if he has only used him twice it has been SCW that has stung Kyle fans the most, how can a character that is so strong that he at two points was god-like, be taken over by Parallax? Even when Johns wrote him as the ONE singular GL that could resist him/it in Rebirth!? This thing took over Ganthet and yet Kyle was immune! Then in exactly 1 issue Kyle was kidnapped, had ION ripped from his body and infected with Parallax. 3 ass ****ings in one damn 22 page issue!

First, pretty sure it was a double size special but I might be wrong.

Second, it's not as if Kyle was walking down the damn street as Ion and Sinestrop popped up behind him and BAM he's paralax. The man had his mother killed before his eyes and later discovered it was at a Sinestro Corps member's doing. Then had Ion literally ripped from him, which could leave him vulnerable to a Paralax infection, unlike during Rebirth.

I dunno, I never saw the trouble with Kyle getting Paralaxed, I do have a problem with his demotion from Ion.

Kyle has been treated bad, but not as bad as people wine about.

 

[Mutagen]

I like the story of redemption with Hal.

Though I hear Kyle's a artist when it comes to creativity.

:gl:

 

[Hush]

You're missing my point completely. You said I wouldn't like it if I had to see my "favourite character Hal" get beaten on and humiliated. And I said I see my "favourite character" get beaten on and humiliated all the time, but I don't put it down to some deep-seated editorial agenda against the character, and get all bitter and jaded over it.

I see what you were saying now and understand. Thats your personal decision, i don't whine about Kyle's treatment all the time just when it comes down to it since the end of Rebirth, other than ION, he has been treated like crap.

But if you want a statement that has more direct, easy to understand merit to what we are debating, fine. No, I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at seeing Hal being laid low. See, I actually don't think Hal Jordan is King of the Universe. Nor do I think he needs to be constantly portrayed that way, or any signs of weakness would be reflective of DC hating the character and conspiring against him. I'd be happy to see a storyline with Hal being put through the wringer, and really getting left in dire straits, and coming across as flawed or even vulnerable. Because I think it could provide interesting ammunition for character development down the line. I'm not too short-sighted to always keep in mind that comics aren't real, that "my" guy doesn't always have to be winning. It's drama, not sport, not a competition.

I'm pretty sure we agree here, i would love to see what you described as Hal being put through the wringer, it would be nice but it has yet to happen in my eyes.

And while you've continued your Hal bashing, you have yet to answer my challenge to man up and explain what it is about Kyle you like, on his own merits, rather than solely defining him by how he relates to Hal in your eyes.

You never flat out asked me this particular question and if you did I apologize for over looking it. I like Kyle cause i can relate with him better than Hal. The fact thathe is a artist is just funny because its so ironic that the artist must draw the artist, i find that a nice twist on the character. He finds himself in these dire situations and still can crack a joke. His time on the JLA with wally is some of the best character banter i have read, the way he thinks he is still a rookie but yet he has been with the Big Boys for so long just a solid good read. The fact that when he is around it seems that Alan Scott always comes around and they have a good talk, it allows for a nice interaction with the character we don't see with Hal. The ION storyline was just awesome its showed how good natured Kyle is and just how much he wants to do to save as many people as he can. I also grew up with the crab mask and he is just the quintessential GL to me. He was the Torchbearer and Re-made the Corps, if it werent for him Guy Gardner, John Stewart and all the other GL's wouldnt have rings.

 

[Hush]

First, pretty sure it was a double size special but I might be wrong.

Second, it's not as if Kyle was walking down the damn street as Ion and Sinestrop popped up behind him and BAM he's paralax. The man had his mother killed before his eyes and later discovered it was at a Sinestro Corps member's doing. Then had Ion literally ripped from him, which could leave him vulnerable to a Paralax infection, unlike during Rebirth.

I dunno, I never saw the trouble with Kyle getting Paralaxed, I do have a problem with his demotion from Ion.

Kyle has been treated bad, but not as bad as people wine about.

Still it was a single issue!

On your other points I could argue but im kinda tired from typing.

 

[Aristotle]

Dude. The freakin' Joker is my favourite comics character. So I'm used to my favourite character getting pwned and punked every time there's a new villain on the block that writers want to take the shortcut into making an insta-badass. But I live with it, because I know that if he was poorly handled in one story, there will be another story down the line that will be more to my liking.

You should be more incensed than any of us. It's not just that the Joker gets punked all the time; he's a supervillain. It's that he goes down like such a chump all the time, it's that nobody seems able to write him as anything but a one-note laffer or a one-note crazy guy. It's not about the literal events, it's about what they symbolically mean.

Conversely, you must be super-excited about Grant Morrison's run on Batman.

 

[Darthphere]

I was searching Mas Y Menos, and found this thread. Why?

 

[WompuM]

Cause Aristotle talks **** on 'em... or something. This thread has become the Kmart version of the green lantern thread.

 

[Darthphere]

Mas Y Menos are awesome. I'm going to pitch a mini with them. With all the crap DC puts out, why not?

 

[LadyVader]

No, I don't like how Kyle has been treated in the past but yes, I do like where he is now. As long as he is written well, I'm not gonna dwell on the past. Every character has his good times and his bad times.

As for Hal, I got nothing against him, I'd rather just pleasantly ignore him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I like the story of redemption with Hal.

As of Rebirth, Hal hasn't done anything wrong, so there's nothing for him to redeem himself for. Johns is rebuilding Hal as a new character, not redeeming him.

 

[WompuM]

Mas Y Menos are awesome. I'm going to pitch a mini with them. With all the crap DC puts out, why not?

You know, there's a twin for the electron and a twin for the proton, there has got to be one lazy ass triplet for the neutron, who sits on the couch all day and posts on superhero message boards. He's a very less effective oracle, but damn if his comments aren't snappy and sarcastic.

 

[Mutagen]

As of Rebirth, Hal hasn't done anything wrong, so there's nothing for him to redeem himself for. Johns is rebuilding Hal as a new character, not redeeming him.

Technically in the comic he's being rebuilt, but in real life he's being redeemed in our eyes.

I guess what I meant to say, the way they brought him to the good side is cool.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

In my opinion the problem is that Kyle fans were kinda...spoiled. They literally had only child syndrome. Back when kyle was the only green lantern from the get go he already started off being immune to the basic weaknesses that lanterns like jordan struggled with their whole career and his ring gave him massive perks beyond those before him.


Bottom line to me, Kyle fans don't want to play fair. NOTHING has been said OR DONE that has put Hal strictly over Kyle. NOTHING. So why all the Hal hate over his supposed unjust "glorification"?? For Kyle fans, their main gripe always goes back to Sinestro Corp. with Parallax taking over kyle.....


...ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! DID YOU GUYS EVEN READ IT.....

First off its been ran into the ground how plausible the capturing of and conversion of Kyle was. Kyle fans just won't have it AT ALL. The great infallible KYLE WOULD NEVER FALL TO PARALLAX EVEN IN HIS UTMOST DARKEST HOUR!

Kyle fans....not only did Kyle savagely beat Hal like he was a child during his tenure as parallax but he also hauled off and OWNED PARALLAX HIMSELF!! THE ****ING COSMIC IMBODIEMENT A ****ING FEAR ITSELF. Such ********, but it happened. PARALLAX RAN.....NOT KYLE. I REPEAT PARALLAX RAN NOT KYLE. Kyle got to walk off with a renewed sense of hope trying find a way to escape the clutches of ol' 'lax.


Not just that but KYLE NEARLY ESCAPED ON HIS OWN!! I have the issue in my hand RIGHT NOW!! Is mine a ****ing misprint??? How the **** does anyone see this as Kyle being weaker than Hal, at all?? The only problem was that as Kyle was being free'd Parallax absorbed Hal in a fit of deperation. When sucked inside HAL AND KYLE ESCAPED TOGETHER. look at page 21 panel 9 and 10!!!!!!! WTF is it??? THEM.ESCAPING TOGETHER!!!!


To Kyle fans... Im sorry if your character has been micharacterized( sincerely and for real)...but I only see fairness...when i read Sinestro corp. I went in HAVING KYLE AS MY FAV GREEN LANTERN. I thought it was a fantastic story but i'll never forget my surprise logging on hear only to see people like CORP and BrianWilly ranting and crying foul at every turn about how Kyle had been raped from the get go. Stuff like that ruined the character for me so i went back to liking Alan scott. It wasn't till nearly a year later that i became a Hal fan when i read new frontier. My point is even when I was a Kyle fan I SAW EVERYTHING AS COMPLETELY PLAUSIBLE. I SAW NO CHARACTER ASSASINATION. the thing i did see was kyle being shuffled out of the picture as the main character. BOO FREAKIN' HOO.

Furthermore as i went back I started liking Kyle's character less because of all the hokey perks that the character had. No wonder kyle fans were pissed, KYLE WAS THE GREEN LANTERN MESSIAH AND NOW HE'S BEEN REDUCED TO BEING ON A FAIR PLAIN WITH HAL,GUY,and JOHN. Kyle fans were always treated to Kyle being the best and it kinda gave readers a snobby approach because the lantern they grew up with was the best....

It was okay when Kyle still was Ion because he was still 1000 times more powerful than everyone else, even if he doesn't get his beloved face time.

It was okay when readers where constantly reminded of Kyle's role as the torchbearer because everyone even the GUARDIANS THEMSELVES would have to bow down and kiss boot occasionally to satify you.

It was totally okay when Kyle was the only being completely impervious to Parallax(HOKEY) because that made him inately greater than Hal. He could shrug off easily what had so greatly sundered Hal.

Kyle fans SO EASILY forgot that it took the SPECTRE HIMSELF to help free Hal, after Parallax owned almost every major hero in DC universe. Yet Kyle almost thwarts Parallax single-handedly and needed only a friendly reminder of Hal jordan for KYLE TO START START HULKIN' UP AND FILLING HIS INVICIBLE SUPER GAUGE AND PROCEED TO HELP TEAR PARALLAX A NEW *******. See the difference there???? AT ALL???????? Its pretty ****ing big.

So to Kyle fans.....( here's the sarcastic part) Im sorry your character....


Is no longer the MOST POWERFUL HERO in dc anymore. Aww man and he only got to do that twice.....*weeps*

Sorry Kyle hasn't pwned the JLA lately with a nigh-invincible cosmic dark-side that only he is capable of stopping.

Sorry that DC decided to revoke Kyles status a the uber invincible fear resistant latern of omega will.


who know's.......maybe Dream will come by again and remind everyone of how he is destined to surpass Hal.


You guys sure are right......Kyle sure has been terribly mistreated lately

Face it. Kyle fans here HATE EQUALITY. They just want Kyle to be better than Hal again....

 

[Keyser Soze]

Not just that but KYLE NEARLY ESCAPED ON HIS OWN!! I have the issue in my hand RIGHT NOW!! Is mine a ****ing misprint??? How the **** does anyone see this as Kyle being weaker than Hal, at all?? The only problem was that as Kyle was being free'd Parallax absorbed Hal in a fit of deperation. When sucked inside HAL AND KYLE ESCAPED TOGETHER. look at page 21 panel 9 and 10!!!!!!! WTF is it??? THEM.ESCAPING TOGETHER!!!!

Sorry, Ultra-Herald, I already know the counter-argument for this one. In this panel, where Hal and Kyle escape together, Hal being positioned in front of Kyle is a subliminal message inserted by Geoff Johns and DC editorial to convince readers that Kyle's place is "behind" Hal.

Yes, really.

While you bring up some good points here, I do think you're being too hard on the Kyle fans. I don't believe all of them (or even most of them) are as extreme in their opinions as you make out.

 

[LadyVader]

Not to mention that you shouldn't judge a character by his or her fans, nor should you let Corpulent's and BrianWilly's opinions have such an effect on you. I mean really... Nothing we say or do on the Hype has any weight in the world of actual comics and comic writing.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I don't see why my hating a character's treatment in a story should affect someone else's enjoyment of the character.