The kyle vs. Hal thread

[TheCorpulent1]

I stand in awe.

 

[BrianWilly]

Well the thing is that, like I mentioned in the other thread, Parallax did affect Kyle in Rebirth, just less so than the others. It wasn't like Kyle had the TB shot and everyone else didn't and so Kyle was just never going to get TB while everyone else could. It was more like everyone else was standing naked in a blizzard wondering why they were freezing to death while Kyle had a jacket on and so wasn't freezing but he was still cold.

...how was that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Not as good. Come on, you didn't even try to include s***.

 

[WompuM]

Let's all do each other a favor, go to our long boxes over the weekend, reread Emerald Twilight, Rebirth, and SCW, then continue the debate. I'll see you all back here Monda.... wait. Its only thursday. God damnit. Nevermind.

 

[BrianWilly]

Not as good. Come on, you didn't even try to include s***.

Get out of my brain, because I was just about edit it the phrase "I tried to put some **** in, but it didn't really fit anywhere."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You should've made it fit. Look at fifthfiend. Why can't you be half the analogy-maker he is?

 

[Aristotle]

You should've made it fit. Look at fifthfiend. Why can't you be half the analogy-maker he is?

http://images.quizfarm.com/1107589981scar.jpg
I AM TEN TIMES THE ANALOGY-MAKER MUFASA WAS!

 

[WompuM]

aw, I miss BatzNHornetz.

 

[Keyser Soze]

No, in GL: Rebirth, I think. Didn't Parallax take Batman over?

No, he didn't. Though the original plan was apparently for Parallax to jump from Hal to Batman, but Johns changed that to Ganthet in the final product.

 

[Aristotle]

No, he didn't. Though the original plan was apparently for Parallax to jump from Hal to Batman, but Johns changed that to Ganthet in the final product.

God, does Geoff Johns hate Batman or what?

 

[Keyser Soze]

God, does Geoff Johns hate Batman or what?

Hmmmmmm, he WAS a total dickwad in Rebirth. Though that was when Batman The Bastard was really in fashion. He did offer a somewhat more sympathetic portrayal in his GL#9 appearance, though.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought the GL #9 thing was lame, personally. Batman's not one to forgive and forget so easily. I was hoping that, even after Johns had wiped away all of Hal's sins, at least Batman, the paragon of uncompromising morality in the DC universe, would hold him accountable. But instead, he and Hal are hunky-dory again by the end of the issue.

 

[BrianWilly]

Oh yes, if you read the original outlined draft of Rebirth that was included at the back of the trades, that **** was horrible. Honest to Buffy, ballz to the wallz bad. There was this whole bit about Batman getting possessed and then beating up Robin or something, there was something about Kyle taking his dad into space, can't really remember, and it was pretty much worse than the final product we got by about a light year or two...and, well to be fair, I suppose that's what the first drafts of things are supposed to be there for.

 

[Aristotle]

I thought the GL #9 thing was lame, personally. Batman's not one to forgive and forget so easily. I was hoping that, even after Johns had wiped away all of Hal's sins, at least Batman, the paragon of uncompromising morality in the DC universe, would hold him accountable. But instead, he and Hal are hunky-dory again by the end of the issue.

Fortunately, it's only in that issue. I'll chalk it up to that issue taking place just days before Infinite Crisis, everyone's head being all ****ed with. In the rest of the DCU, he's still plenty suspicious. Check out his backhanded defense of Hal in Final Crisis: "I still think there's something ****ed about that guy, but this doesn't seem like how that ****edness would manifest itself."

 

[Keyser Soze]

I thought the GL #9 thing was lame, personally. Batman's not one to forgive and forget so easily. I was hoping that, even after Johns had wiped away all of Hal's sins, at least Batman, the paragon of uncompromising morality in the DC universe, would hold him accountable. But instead, he and Hal are hunky-dory again by the end of the issue.

Yeah, that was a weakness for me as well. While Batman's depiction was generally better in #9, and I can see where Johns was going with the angle of getting them to work side by side, I think the same effect could have been achieved by Batman leaving with a grudging respect of Hal, but not yet with the old trust and friendship restored. I think the mutual antipathy was an angle that had a little more mileage in it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Fortunately, it's only in that issue. I'll chalk it up to that issue taking place just days before Infinite Crisis, everyone's head being all ****ed with. In the rest of the DCU, he's still plenty suspicious. Check out his backhanded defense of Hal in Final Crisis: "I still think there's something ****ed about that guy, but this doesn't seem like how that ****edness would manifest itself."

Heh, nice. I'll probably end up picking up the hardcover for Final Crisis. I quit after the first two issues were all over the place and didn't seem to be leading anywhere.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Oh yes, if you read the original outlined draft of Rebirth that was included at the back of the trades, that **** was horrible. Honest to Buffy, ballz to the wallz bad. There was this whole bit about Batman getting possessed and then beating up Robin or something, there was something about Kyle taking his dad into space, can't really remember, and it was pretty much worse than the final product we got by about a light year or two...and, well to be fair, I suppose that's what the first drafts of things are supposed to be there for.

Yeah, that's the plan I was referring from. That first proposal had MAJOR third act problems. I remember Aristotle calling Batman the "de facto villain" of the first half of Rebirth. But if things had gone the way they would have pre-redrafting, he'd have actually been the "villain" of the climax too.

 

[Aristotle]

Oh yes, if you read the original outlined draft of Rebirth that was included at the back of the trades, that **** was horrible. Honest to Buffy, ballz to the wallz bad. There was this whole bit about Batman getting possessed and then beating up Robin or something, there was something about Kyle taking his dad into space, can't really remember, and it was pretty much worse than the final product we got by about a light year or two...and, well to be fair, I suppose that's what the first drafts of things are supposed to be there for.

It just underscores the fanboy nature of everything Geoff Johns has become. He used to write really good stories, and by the time they get to publication, he still does, but there's this undertone of "Now I rule the DC Universe, so I can do what I've always wanted to! I think Batman is a dick who needs to be taken down a notch!* I think Kyle Rayner should be a jealous little c**t who wishes he was Hal! I think Wally is just a placeholder for the inevitable return of Barry Allen!"

*When are writers going to get tired of doing that? To hear the 90s tell it, Batman was the 512th best martial artist in the world, and everyone hated him. Maybe that's why there isn't much time spent on his death in Final Crisis 7: everyone hated him, and he wasn't that good at anything actually.

 

[Aristotle]

Heh, nice. I'll probably end up picking up the hardcover for Final Crisis. I quit after the first two issues were all over the place and didn't seem to be leading anywhere.

There's some really nice little backhanded moments like that for Hal. Like when John takes lead on the deicide of Orion and Hal's just backup.

As I've said a trillion times elsewhere, you should really read it again and view it not as just another recounting of events in the DCU and more as its own work of art.