Superman Returns The lifting of NK = Utterley Heroic?

[C. Lee]

I don't post alot but have come to respect certain voices - yours high amogst them so I need to gain a better understanding from you on a point here. An alien crystal goes beyond our understaning of the simple rule of our understanding of conservation of mass/energy - mass nor energy may be neither created not destroyed - it merely changes form. I'm sure we both understand this concept in theory at least. Therefore I need to ask why did the alien mattter (crystal) act in one matter (expand in its mass ) (expotentally I might add!) while the kryptonite (of similiar origins) did not!

Signed - confuesded in state!

It's like TheComicbookKid said.....the Kryptonian crystal didn't expand itself into either the FOS or NK.....it made Earth material mold, meld, blend, move itself into a facsimilie of Kryptonian culture (a small part actual Kryptonian, a large part Earthian)...so it looked outwardly like Kryptonian crystaline constructure, felt lije K-c-c, but was made predominately of Earth materials. This was the same for the green Kryptonite shard. The clear crystal caused the green K to meld with Earth material and spread throughout the island mass of NK....but it wasn't now pure green K, but a diluted form of it.

 

[C. Lee]

It sure as heck affected him when he was standing on top of it and it was not entirely comprised of glowing green crystal.

WHat was going on there? Was there a lead shield to protect him from the radiation on the bottom, but not on the top?

As I said in my previous post....the island was infused of diluted green K......so he didn't immediately feel an overwhelming power drain when he landed, just that something wasn't right. The longer he stood on the island, the more his powers were draining from him....by the time he realized he was powerless, it was too late.

 

[Qwerty©]

It sure as heck affected him when he was standing on top of it and it was not entirely comprised of glowing green crystal.

Yes, but the effects were different. He didn't notice it until Luthor pushed him down the stairs. Then he got beat up and a peice of real kryptonite was stabbed into him.

WHat was going on there? Was there a lead shield to protect him from the radiation on the bottom, but not on the top?

I don't know if you were paying attention, but in the film it clearly shows he was struggling and suffering from the effects of kryptonite as it started to break through the rock. But with the help of the solar rays he just absorbed and through sheer heroic determination, he lifted it into space.

I don't know how people don't understand this.

 

[mego joe]

Yes, but the effects were different. He didn't notice it until Luthor pushed him down the stairs. Then he got beat up and a peice of real kryptonite was stabbed into him.

I don't know if you were paying attention, but in the film it clearly shows he was struggling and suffering from the effects of kryptonite as it started to break through the rock. But with the help of the solar rays he just absorbed and through sheer heroic determination, he lifted it into space.

I don't know how people don't understand this.

Honestly, it's been so long since I've seen the film the details of this scene escape me.

 

[Qwerty©]

Honestly, it's been so long since I've seen the film the details of this scene escape me.

So why are you arguing about it?

 

[mego joe]

It's like TheComicbookKid said.....the Kryptonian crystal didn't expand itself into either the FOS or NK.....it made Earth material mold, meld, blend, move itself into a facsimilie of Kryptonian culture (a small part actual Kryptonian, a large part Earthian)...so it looked outwardly like Kryptonian crystaline constructure, felt lije K-c-c, but was made predominately of Earth materials. This was the same for the green Kryptonite shard. The clear crystal caused the green K to meld with Earth material and spread throughout the island mass of NK....but it wasn't now pure green K, but a diluted form of it.

I guess I always thought that the green crystal from S:TM utilized the ice at the North Pole to replicate form of the structure, but the material is still just ice shaped like K-c-c.

So wouldn't there still be just one small piece of KRyptonite inside NK? There wouldn't have been enough Kryptonite material to really expand. I think that the crystal would only utilize the materials at hand to create a structure. THere wouldn't have been enough kryptonite to really affect Superman if it were diluted and spread through out would there?

 

[C. Lee]

I guess I always thought that the green crystal from S:TM utilized the ice at the North Pole to replicate form of the structure, but the material is still just ice shaped like K-c-c.

So wouldn't there still be just one small piece of KRyptonite inside NK? There wouldn't have been enough Kryptonite material to really expand. I think that the crystal would only utilize the materials at hand to create a structure. THere wouldn't have been enough kryptonite to really affect Superman if it were diluted and spread through out would there?

Remember....this is all my theory (I've talked it over with others who find it reasonable too) and not canon by DC.....

The Kryptonian crystal realigns Earth material to mimic Kryptonian material. It doesn't replicate it perfectly...but causes it to mimic it. In this way, the green K is not expanded or replicated into massive amounts of the original shard...but is made into something that mimics (looks like and acts like the orinal to some extent, but doesn't look or act perfectly like it) the green K....so in that way it has a debilitating effect upon Superman, but it doesn't affect him like he is standing on an island full of pure green K.

 

[mego joe]

So why are you arguing about it?

Something about still doesn't seem right.

 

[mego joe]

Remember....this is all my theory (I've talked it over with others who find it reasonable too) and not canon by DC.....

The Kryptonian crystal realigns Earth material to mimic Kryptonian material. It doesn't replicate it perfectly...but causes it to mimic it. In this way, the green K is not expanded or replicated into massive amounts of the original shard...but is made into something that mimics (looks like and acts like the orinal to some extent, but doesn't look or act perfectly like it) the green K....so in that way it has a debilitating effect upon Superman, but it doesn't affect him like he is standing on an island full of pure green K.

So, essentially, in your theory, would the effect on him be the same whether he was standing on it or under it?

Also, what is being argued about it in this thread is all an aspect we, the viewers have to make up, b/c there is nothing in the film that really gives any indication to what is 'actually' going on.

IT's just like the relationship between Lois and Superman in SR, there's no context given, just vague clues that everyone interprets differently.

 

[Qwerty©]

Also, what is being argued about it in this thread is all an aspect we, the viewers have to make up, b/c there is nothing in the film that really gives any indication to what is 'actually' going on.

Incorrect.

We know that the kryptonite in New Krypton is different from normal kryptonite because it doesn't look the same. That's a massive visual indicator.

We know that Superman charged himself with solar rays because of the scene where he flies above the clouds toward the sun, we even hear a slight crackling as a way of showing the absorption.

We know that despite being fully recharged he still struggles with lifting New Krypton because of the many shots showing him suffering, which gets worse when purer pieces of kryptonite begin to break through.

 

[C. Lee]

First off...sorry it's taking so long between posts....I've been feeding the baby and stuff.

So, essentially, in your theory, would the effect on him be the same whether he was standing on it or under it?

Yes, in a way. When he lands on the top of the island....he doesn't immediately drop to the ground totaly weak and strengthless, because it is the diluted K and is slowly sapping his powers. When he goes under the island to lift it....he digs down below the level of the changing land mass, so that when he starts lifting the island, the greek K has not grown down to the level he is at yet (you see it start to appeare as he gets the island higher into the atmosphere)....that is why at first he isn't affected by it at all.

Also, what is being argued about it in this thread is all an aspect we, the viewers have to make up, b/c there is nothing in the film that really gives any indication to what is 'actually' going on.

I have said that all along myself.

IT's just like the relationship between Lois and Superman in SR, there's no context given, just vague clues that everyone interprets differently.

Absolutely. What I do is give out plausable alternative possibilities to offset the people who state things as gospel, when Singer himself says it is vague. I'm not saying any of my alternative views are the only right one (like many others do with theirs)....I am trying to give people other views to think about.

 

[mego joe]

Incorrect.

We know that the kryptonite in New Krypton is different from normal kryptonite because it doesn't look the same. That's a massive visual indicator.

VIsually, what can you tell? That the earth that has been manipulated into NK is laced with KRyptonite? Without knowing exactly how the green Kryptonian crystal works you can't really know any of the properites of NK. All you really can tell is that it affects him differently, and perhaps not consistently.

We know that Superman charged himself with solar rays because of the scene where he flies above the clouds toward the sun, we even hear a slight crackling as a way of showing the absorption.

WHile that was a visually cool scene, I'm don't think that's how Kryptonite affects Superman nor how the sun gives him his powers. Kryptonite doesn't lower his 'charge.' It acts like a poison to him which weakens him like an illness.

The very presence of the sun's radiation in the atmosphere is where his power comes from, not a 'charge' that can be upped by being closer to it. He's not less powerful on cloudy days, he doesn't lose his power at night when the sun is not visible.

THe only think that affects his powers is Kryptonite, and it's all about his proximty in respect to the Kryptonite. The sun wouldn't really affect him, just being distanced from the Kryptonite would allow his powers to return. And as soon as he got near it once again he would lose his powers.

We know that despite being fully recharged he still struggles with lifting New Krypton because of the many shots showing him suffering, which gets worse when purer pieces of kryptonite begin to break through.

THere's no 'recharging' of Superman's powers. Being 'charged up' will not change the affect of Kryptonite on him.

 

[C. Lee]

I believe others have spoke of how it has now been established in the comics that he does get a recharge from the sun if he gets closer to it than if he is on the surface of the Earth. Supposedly there is a current run where Lex in some way gets Supes to go directly to our sun....and it in someway over charges him and causes problems (sorry, but I'm not up to date with all the comics).

 

[mego joe]

I believe others have spoke of how it has now been established in the comics that he does get a recharge from the sun if he gets closer to it than if he is on the surface of the Earth. Supposedly there is a current run where Lex in some way gets Supes to go directly to our sun....and it in someway over charges him and causes problems (sorry, but I'm not up to date with all the comics).

I think that's in All-Star Superman, just got volume 1 earlier in the week but I haven't read it. For the record ASS is an 'alternate take' on SUperman and not regular continuity.

 

[C. Lee]

I think that's in All-Star Superman, just got volume 1 earlier in the week but I haven't read it. For the record ASS is an 'alternate take' on SUperman and not regular continuity.

Some say this about Superman Returns too.

 

[mego joe]

I believe others have spoke of how it has now been established in the comics that he does get a recharge from the sun if he gets closer to it than if he is on the surface of the Earth. Supposedly there is a current run where Lex in some way gets Supes to go directly to our sun....and it in someway over charges him and causes problems (sorry, but I'm not up to date with all the comics).

I still think it would not be so detrimental to SUperman if the KRyptonite were dilluted. I don't think it would be strong enough to affect him as much as it appears to. I suppose it could be considered an artificial KRyptonite ala Superman III, so the effects are different, but w/o an explanation from within the film itself, there's really no way to tell what is actually supposed to be going on either how the green crystal manipulates the material it uses or the strength of the artificial or diluted Kryptonite.

 

[C. Lee]

I still think it would not be so detrimental to SUperman if the KRyptonite were dilluted. I don't think it would be strong enough to affect him as much as it appears to. I suppose it could be considered an artificial KRyptonite ala Superman III, so the effects are different, but w/o an explanation from within the film itself, there's really no way to tell what is actually supposed to be going on either how the green crystal manipulates the material it uses or the strength of the artificial or diluted Kryptonite.

That's the thing....the diluted K doesn't affect him that much. It drains his superpowers (to where he is like a regular human, but not to the point that he can't even stand like when Lex put the necklace around his neck in the first Reeve movie)....but then Lex suckerpunches him (this dazes him), he falls down the steps (this can knock the breath out of you), and then he is beaten by Lex's gang (having his invulnerability drained to the point of a human, that beating is enough to mess up anyone), and then he gets stabbed by pure green K.

 

[mego joe]

That's the thing....the diluted K doesn't affect him that much. It drains his superpowers (to where he is like a regular human, but not to the point that he can't even stand like when Lex put the necklace around his neck in the first Reeve movie)....but then Lex suckerpunches him (this dazes him), he falls down the steps (this can knock the breath out of you), and then he is beaten by Lex's gang (having his invulnerability drained to the point of a human, that beating is enough to mess up anyone), and then he gets stabbed by pure green K.

See, I thought he fought back so anemically that he was struggling against the K with all he had just to stand up and he had nothing left. If he was just normal human, he should have fought back more than hitting the thugs in their fists with his face. I would have put up a better fight than that.

 

[mego joe]

Some say this about Superman Returns too.

I can live with the charging aspect, but the other charcter aspects are too much.

 

[C. Lee]

See, I thought he fought back so anemically that he was struggling against the K with all he had just to stand up and he had nothing left. If he was just normal human, he should have fought back more than hitting the thugs in their fists with his face. I would have put up a better fight than that.

You forget...he was very close to the pure green K that Lex had in his pocket.

 

[afan]

Firstly, Green K does not "drain" his powers. It immediately on exposure creates an incapacitating weakness. Superman's powers are not negated, however the weakness is so severe that he is incapable of any action. Prolonged exposure to the radiation is fatal.
SR, as have other incarnations, SV for example, misuses Green K.

If in fact C.Lee's theory is a working theory for discussion I dare say the "Geen K" substitute in New Krypton would be, due to the size of the original sample and the size of New Krypton, fairly benign in it's affect on the Man of Steel.

 

[Comicfan]

Ok, so i love all of the other action scene's in the movie, especially the plane scene which is one of the best action scene's in ANY CB movie IMO. But, if you look at it, Superman was never in danger himself in that scene. I know, i know Superman is always thinking of others, but there is no danger whatsoever to him in that scene and this is why the lifting of NK just 'gets' to me more on an emotional level. Had Superman failed to save the plane, yes thousands would have potentially died, but Superman would have still been there to prevent other disasters around the world. But in the lifting of NK scene, there is just so much more at stake.

If Superman fails in this scene, not only do "Billions" of people die, but so does Superman, and this is pretty certain considering he almost dies by simply succeeding to get it off of Earth. Not only would the Earth lose a country or two, but it would lose its great hero also. I know many of the haters didnt like this scene and found it boring or repetitive, but i find it to be one of THE most heroic acts in any Superhero movie, and that is something i expect of Superman in ANY medium, any one else agree?

To me, that is the best scene in the movie... Superman Lifting NK... the look on his eyes... the look of Luthor...it was perfect

 

[mego joe]

You forget...he was very close to the pure green K that Lex had in his pocket.

But when real green K was stuck in his side it did not affect him the same?

He was still able to get up out of the helicopter and fly up to the sun to recharge then still lift NK out of the bottom of the Sea?

Seems the real Green K didn't affect him so much then.

 

[mego joe]

Some say this about Superman Returns too.

COntinuity is one thing, but actions are a different story.

 

[C. Lee]

But when real green K was stuck in his side it did not affect him the same?

He was still able to get up out of the helicopter and fly up to the sun to recharge then still lift NK out of the bottom of the Sea?

Seems the real Green K didn't affect him so much then.

It's hard to find a common consensus on the effectiveness of green K. Some say it weakens him (as in draining his powers)...others, like afan, say it "immediately on exposure creates an incapacitating weakness".

So...some will say, that with the removal of the major portion of the green K from his body, Superman was able to fly up into the upper atmosphere to get repowered by the sun (he wouldn't have been able to perform much of any other kind of super feat due to the small shard left in him)...and then once recharged, he was able to lift NK. Which of course leaves the problem that some people disagree on whether ot not the sun actually repowers him.

Others of course will make the argument that with him in bodily contact with any amount of green K....he wouldn't be able to do anything but lay there.

It basicly comes down to how you interpret green K's effects on Supes.