Superman Returns The lifting of NK = Utterley Heroic?

[C. Lee]

Come on guys....let's try to discuss things without getting into name calling. You can disagree and still be nice with your rebuttles.

 

[dar-El]

Sorry but i felt insulted with some of the comments made. Ill play nice from now on. Btw love the penguins of war gag.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I have the skills. But when somone insults my intelligance i tend to drop them. Dont laugh at me, i take that personally! (plus it shows your ignorance) For the record ive been reading the comics and watching the shows since the day i was born. I am forever linked to myth it bcos Dar-el ( minus the - and a kryptonian name of the house of El no less) is my real name. Its a major part of who i am and i sure as hell dont watch it on and off. I watch everything that comes my way, all the time. For it inspires me. And truthfully i dont always agree with whats done. (for me new krypton in L&K was really lame and some of the recent smallville stuff is really ridiculas) I will admit though, Jor-El's recordings couldve been wrong. But singer (in the final cut in which it is truthfully judged) presented a film in which he left on vague, hearsay evidence. Thats what ticks me off. (and luthors ridiculas plan) No thought went into it whatsoever. and the kid was totally unneccisary (specially if you believe the rumors that he will be killed off, proving singer admits his mistake) Don get me wrong its a good first draft. But it needed a lot of improvement before being made. In the end, for what i get out of the character, its a badly thought out and edited film. It didnt explain the back story enough (trust me when i say this a lot of the haters would like it had it been done the right way) and it killed the character. One thing that illustrates this is the deleated scene where clark is in the barn reading the consiquences of his leaving and regretting it. Dont you think that wouldve been better than the pointless memory of young clark running though the corn field? At least then we'd know he cared. and yes my vision is my own. But at least to me he represents a great hero. Not an anti hero. To me he is man of high moral standards and of which i can look up to. And if, in the end you cant say that you respect what he means to me or that you understand what i (and all the haters as you call us) have been sayin, well it kinda proves that you're ignorant of others just like singers superman.

You said i didnt have a clue on Superman when you dont know me and i am ignorant? Come on dude, read your own posts.

I was offended by what you said also, so dont preach innocense.

I do respect the fact that different people have different images of Superman, hence why i stated that your vision is not necessarily the same as other people's.

My vision is he is the ultimate hero, but, seeing as he was raised as a human, he is flawed like one, and so can make the same mistakes.

Plus IMO he learned from his mistakes in SR.

 

[Cyrusbales]

A very poignant scene, the whole idea of him pushing himself further than before is like what happens to heroes in almost every film at the end, however because he's superman, it is more believable and the scene between him falling off the island and him lifting it really helps with this.

 

[dar-El]

Hmm i did jump the wagon a bit so i apologise if i upset you. Just know that this subject is personal for me. For the record, i agree with you're analysis of the ultimate hero raised as a human. But in the end singer retread the mistakes from 2 and gave us something we'd seen before. The only thing new was the kid, which to be honest, is unneccisary and will damage the franchise before its even begun. Thats what most of the haters dislike about it. and dare i say is something you fail to acknowledge.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

A very poignant scene, the whole idea of him pushing himself further than before is like what happens to heroes in almost every film at the end, however because he's superman, it is more believable and the scene between him falling off the island and him lifting it really helps with this.

100 % agreed, in fact i feel that the scene you mention, were Superman leaves the plane and finally says "Bye Lois" is one of the best scene's in a CB movie IMO, especially the part when he flies above the clouds.

Hmm i did jump the wagon a bit so i apologise if i upset you. Just know that this subject is personal for me. For the record, i agree with you're analysis of the ultimate hero raised as a human. But in the end singer retread the mistakes from 2 and gave us something we'd seen before. The only thing new was the kid, which to be honest, is unneccisary and will damage the franchise before its even begun. Thats what most of the haters dislike about it. and dare i say is something you fail to acknowledge.

Apology accepted and i apologise for my part as well.

Oh i definately acknowledge why people dont like it, i just dont understand their reasons, giving him a son adds a new dimension to the character IMO, and i am interested to see were it goes.

 

[Angeloz]

Yes interesting criticism. He's doing what has been done before and too innovative at the same time. So people want something different and something not different. Sounds like a paradox.

Angeloz

 

[El Payaso]

Oh i definately acknowledge why people dont like it, i just dont understand their reasons, giving him a son adds a new dimension to the character IMO, and i am interested to see were it goes.

A new dimension - fatherhood - previously stated in the franchise btw. And far more significant than being in love with a girl.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yes interesting criticism. He's doing what has been done before and too innovative at the same time. So people want something different and something not different. Sounds like a paradox.

Angeloz

Exactly, it seems people cannot make their minds up about what they want and dont want for a Superman movie. If there were NO nods to the Reeve movies, i bet just as many people would be complaining.

A new dimension - fatherhood - previously stated in the franchise btw. And far more significant than being in love with a girl.

Exactly, and its a dimension to Superman that hasnt been explored on screen before, hence why i want to see were they take it.

I hope the rumours

Spoiler

of Jasons demise in MOS

are untrue.

 

[Angeloz]

I might of complained if they weren't respectful of Reeve and Donner but if so I might not have liked the film. Which would mean I wouldn't have found this place in the first place. So there'd be no complaints. Does that make sense to you?

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Sort of ha ha.

But IMO, they didnt go over the top with the nods, it was just about right, and, in the 3rd act (and i think this will follow over into MOS) there were little to no nods to Reeve/Donner.

 

[dar-El]

I have said form day one his leaving earth and fathering a kid would be acceptable provided they were handled the right way. You said it adds a new dimension, maybe if he were older it would work out. A mid 30's/early 40's, well established superman, married to lois doing all this wouldve been fine by me. But instead he fathered a kid too early in his career and too early in the franchise. To me its bloody stupid. It doesnt add a new dimension to it. It spoils it. There are so many adventures to have, so many villains to face but now its ruined because of the kid. Every time he faces a villain, all they would have to do is grab the kid and its over. Boring! For the record if the plot rumor for the sequel is true (for me its far too predictable), singer would be admitting the kid is a dumb idea by killing him off. Either way he's backed into a corner.

 

[El Payaso]

I have said form day one his leaving earth and fathering a kid would be acceptable provided they were handled the right way. You said it adds a new dimension, maybe if he were older it would work out. A mid 30's/early 40's, well established superman, married to lois doing all this wouldve been fine by me. But instead he fathered a kid too early in his career and too early in the franchise. To me its bloody stupid. It doesnt add a new dimension to it. It spoils it. There are so many adventures to have, so many villains to face but now its ruined because of the kid. Every time he faces a villain, all they would have to do is grab the kid and its over. Boring! For the record if the plot rumor for the sequel is true (for me its far too predictable), singer would be admitting the kid is a dumb idea by killing him off. Either way he's backed into a corner.

Oh, you mean in circumstances where fatherhood and going to Krypton mean no problems in Superman's life, then it's ok. Well, that is the definition of anti-conflict and therefore uninteresting premise for a story. It's like having Hamlet's father dead but for natural reasons and prince of denmark getting over his father's death with no problem.

 

[dar-El]

Superman isnt hamlet! He's superman and has 2 act accordingly otherwise he's not superman. Why do you think so many people are arguing over it? Because they feel he didnt act the way he shouldve. The circumstances that singer created do not fit the character or at least our (the haters) interpretation of him. On a differrent note how would you feel if singer does what is rumored and kills the kid? Would you think that his introduction was pointless? or would you hope he turns back time again to save him?

 

[Angeloz]

I doubt turning back time is still canon for the current film version. Let it end with the other film version. As for Jason, why would all the villains have to know about him? Lex does but he's not all of them. Actually an interesting thought is instead of Jason's death what if it's Lex instead? Somehow he brings his own downfall which includes his death. A thought.

Angeloz

 

[El Payaso]

Superman isnt hamlet!

*slaps in the forehead*

It's called example. I could have used Inspector Clouseau. For every good story there's a conflict. The more intrincated it is the conflicty the most interesting the story will be. That is basic narrative.

But I won't deny an average formula repetition with lots of CGI wouldn't work. I just don't want that.

He's superman and has 2 act accordingly otherwise he's not superman.

Superman has behaved in a questionable way in the previous movies man.

Why do you think so many people are arguing over it?

Are you asking me why people complain? Really? Do you know people?

The circumstances that singer created do not fit the character or at least our (the haters) interpretation of him.

You just have to agree that quitting his mission for Lois, reversing time, killing Zod or having a personal revenge on Rocky the truckdriver was or was not fitting that very same vision.

On a differrent note how would you feel if singer does what is rumored and kills the kid? Would you think that his introduction was pointless? or would you hope he turns back time again to save him?

The kid shouldn't die. But of course let's see how he dies and why and what the consequences are. Now, I know that with Singer we won't have some last minute deus ex machina ending that would make everything previous as something that 'never happened'.



Btw you said about the kid:

To me its bloody stupid. It doesnt add a new dimension to it. It spoils it. There are so many adventures to have, so many villains to face but now its ruined because of the kid. Every time he faces a villain, all they would have to do is grab the kid and its over. Boring!

Now, isn't that the exact same thing that happens with Lois?

Isn't that the way they got Superman in SII? Because Luthor knew he cared for her?

Is, for that same matter, boring to have a Lois Lane since "every time he faces a villiain, all they would have to do is grab Lois and it's over"?

 

[dar-El]

Its called example huh? Well sorry but superman didnt set any kind of example in returns. He may have saved the plane cos lois and others were on it but for me he saved the other people around the world (after the much debated stalking scene) to relieve his pain of rejection. Superman doesnt do things because it makes himself feel better. He does it cos its the right thing to do. Thats what he's here for. Yes he did act questionably in S2 but id hoped he'd learned from those mistakes and become a better hero. For christ sake that was done nearly 30 years ago and singer gave us a repeat performance. And yes lois does get captured from time to time but at least thats an established scenario straight from the comics. Its more interesting to have a vunerable, non superpowered woman be captured and fight back, intsead of the kid. Dont forget Lois is supposed to be a role model too.

 

[El Payaso]

Its called example huh? Well sorry but superman didnt set any kind of example in returns.

What the hell...

Dude, I'm talking about putting an example to clarify a point, a very common device in any conversation/discussion. Now, what the hell has that ever to do with Superman setting examples to the world...? Now I can't put an example to clarify becausee.... Superman didn't set an example for the woprld in the movie?????

I mean seriously... you're just throwing the first thing that crosses through your mind.

He may have saved the plane cos lois and others were on it but for me he saved the other people around the world (after the much debated stalking scene) to relieve his pain of rejection.

And what serves as a support for such crazy theory?

Superman doesnt do things because it makes himself feel better.

I agree.

But since this is nothing more than a personal theory of yours without any kind of support so far, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

He does it cos its the right thing to do. Thats what he's here for.

In fact he's here merely because Jor-El wanted to save him from Krypton's explosion.

Yes he did act questionably in S2 but id hoped he'd learned from those mistakes and become a better hero.

Very often people learn from msitakes and unsuspectedly falls into bigger holes. It's just human nature.

For christ sake that was done nearly 30 years ago and singer gave us a repeat performance.

There are different motives for diffeerent behaviours. In SR he doesn't quit forever, he just go to do what he feels he has to do to his original planet.

Not the same.

And yes lois does get captured from time to time but at least thats an established scenario straight from the comics.

Still it's the same thing nevertheless.

And Batmyte and Mr. Mxyzptlk are straight from comics. Not everything from comics is a great idea, we know that.

Its more interesting to have a vunerable, non superpowered woman be captured and fight back, intsead of the kid.

So Jason can fight back to his possible kidnappers. So it's not that bad as with Lois. With Lois, Superman has simply his hands tied. What you say makes it more interesting for me actually.

Dont forget Lois is supposed to be a role model too.

First, who said so? really. She's not suppoosed to be a model of anything that I know.

Second, what the hell has that to do with anything of what you said?

 

[dar-El]

What lois isnt supposed to be a role model for all young women? are you kidding me? My comment about Lois has got everything to do with how singer failed to capture lois lane in both casting and characterisation. Lois (especially in the past 20years of books, lois and clark, the animated series and finally smallville) is a fiesty go getter who could kick any normal blokes ass (after all she is the well trained elder daughter of a general dont forget). She's someone who's heart is warm, kind and isnt so easily broken. Quite honestly she is a career woman who is the equal of all guys (except superpowered ones) and wouldve kicked brutus' (a brute named brutus, real inventive heh) ass. Singer however turned her into a a far too vulnerable, moaning, groaning, whining, pathetic, cold hearted ***** who takes her son with her on dangerous assignments. That isnt very appropriate. As for superman saving people for himself, its all down to the way he looks after hearing Lois say she doesnt love him. As he flies away into the sky, you can see he's a little upset and we hear Jor-El's voice 'even though you have been raised a s a human being' etc. Then we get an all too brief scene of him saving people around the world. To me he did all that to take his mind off Lois, to mask his pain and i find that unnaceptable. Had he saved a bunch of people before going to the house (giving him an excuse to be in the area) it may have been different. Before you try to defend it let me tell you, i have a media degree. I was top of my class when it came the interpretation of what directors and desingers were trying to convey in film and ads. So much so that my teachers were dissapointed i didnt go for a career in media. Thats why i see what i see in that sequence. and to me its down right disturbing. More so considering its supposed to me a superman movie.

 

[El Payaso]

What lois isnt supposed to be a role model for all young women? are you kidding me?

What Lois is supposed to be a role model for all young women? Are you kidding me?

I mean... since when?

My comment about Lois has got everything to do with how singer failed to capture lois lane in both casting and characterisation.

Of course, since you turned her into something she's not.

Lois (especially in the past 20years of books, lois and clark, the animated series and finally smallville) is a fiesty go getter who could kick any normal blokes ass (after all she is the well trained elder daughter of a general dont forget). She's someone who's heart is warm, kind and isnt so easily broken. Quite honestly she is a career woman who is the equal of all guys (except superpowered ones) and wouldve kicked brutus' (a brute named brutus, real inventive heh) ass.

A woman that phisically(?) kicks some men's ass. I didn't know that, but then again... is that the definistion of a role model?

Lois can have great qualities, but I don't know if that alone defines her as a role model. Lois - in this vision, started with Donner, followed up by Lester - is a person that expose her life merely by ambition; like when she got herself under that Eiffel Tower's elevator and the only thing she could come with to self-justify was spelling 'Nobel Prize' 'Pulitzer Prize', etc. So I'm not sure if she's meant to be a role model in the aspirational/inspirational sense Superman is supposed to be for example. Btw, a super man called 'Superman', real inventive heh.

Lois has been traditionally the damsel in distress for Superman to rescue. I don't see why she should be suddenly able to kick Brutus' ass when he coudl't kick Rocky's one in SII (he attacked him from behind so she had a little advantage but he was one step of punching her face). Brutus is by far meaner than Rocky, probably more trained to fight too.

Singer however turned her into a a far too vulnerable, moaning, groaning, whining, pathetic, cold hearted ***** who takes her son with her on dangerous assignments.

So she's cold but vulnerable at the same time.

Anyway I saw Lois whining and moaning a lot in STM and SII. She has reasons to do so back then and had reasons in SR too so it's all good.

But yes, Lois has been cold traditionally. She don't give a damn about Clark but she's ambitious enough to pretend seduce Superman because - even when they're the same man - he is eye-catching, muscular and uses flashy tights. Bad role model I'd say. To go after a man merely because of looks.

That said, the question remains unanswered: How is being a role model more interesting than the son at the moment of being the aim of villiains when they look how to get to Superman?

That isnt very appropriate.

Appliable to what I said about Donner's and Lester's Lois too.

As for superman saving people for himself, its all down to the way he looks after hearing Lois say she doesnt love him. As he flies away into the sky, you can see he's a little upset and we hear Jor-El's voice 'even though you have been raised a s a human being' etc. Then we get an all too brief scene of him saving people around the world. To me he did all that to take his mind off Lois, to mask his pain and i find that unnaceptable.

You're right about one thing: this is merely to you.

Superman have been saving people for no excuse all of his life as Superman. Now suddenly you say he needs an excuse. Now he suddenly saves people to forget a girl. Weak argument. And there's nothing in the movie that backs you up. So you're making things up in order to be able to have more complaints.

Had he saved a bunch of people before going to the house (giving him an excuse to be in the area) it may have been different.

You mean, like all the people he saved in the plane before seeing Lois. Ouch. I guess your theory of the 'I'll save people out of spite' theory wasn't that right.

And again, he needed no excuse 'to be in the area'. He was going to talk to her. He knew it was Richard's house, maybe it was a wrong moment. It was, so he flew away with the broken heart (Lois said she was never actually in love with him). But he tried again in the Planet's rooftop. His spite wasn't that much.

Before you try to defend it let me tell you, i have a media degree. I was top of my class when it came the interpretation of what directors and desingers were trying to convey in film and ads.

*shakes in fear*

*understands that means nothing if he can't defend a point properly in here*

*shakes fear away*

Thats why is see what i see in that sequence. and to me its down right disturbing.

You see that in that sequence because you had good grades...?

As bizarre as that is, it is a better reason than to see that just because you wanted to.

Truth is, nothing supports your theory. Your resumee certainly doesn't.

 

[C. Lee]

What Lois is supposed to be a role model for all young women? Are you kidding me?

All Lois' since her creation.

She was an independant woman making her way through life on her own. A very radical idea until about a decade or so ago.

 

[sithgoblin]

The lifting of NK = Utterley Unrealistic

 

[C. Lee]

The lifting of NK = Utterley Unrealistic

But does that make it unheroic? Most things done in movies are unrealistic....but they still come off as heroic.

 

[El Payaso]

The lifting of NK = Utterley Unrealistic

Superman = Utterly Unrealistic.

 

[sithgoblin]

But does that make it unheroic? Most things done in movies are unrealistic....but they still come off as heroic.

Yes it was herioc, but it also failed to hold my suspension of disbelief. They set the rules for Superman's universe, and then proceeded to break them. Why not just make Superman click his fingers to make New Krypton dissapear, if they are going to break their own rules.