The Marvel Implosion

[runawayboulder]

didnt they switch back to the old numbering though?, i remember the changes in the book..and the failure of fightbolts, but i don't recall a 2 year lull.

Fightbolts ended in late 03 and the title was relaunched in 05.....so a little over a year. It was by #13 they went back to the original numbers.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It's a cancellation if they don't do it. The book is now selling less than 20,000 copies per month. A desparate move like this is what it needs.

Books from the major labels that sell less than 20,000 need to get cancelled plain and simple.

A retitling is not going to save this book. Every book that Marvel puts out that has been retitled has either been cancelled (Dark Wolverine, Incredible Hercules, Black Panther) or on the verge of cancellation (Journey into Mystery, Captain America &). Retitling a book has never worked in the modern era. It's just done to capture the audience that is already buying the book on a concept that would never sell to begin with and then once the reader figures out that the original protagonist is never coming back, they abandon the book en masse.

But what makes this title even more baffling is the fact that unlike Wolverine (65k), Captain America (45k), Daredevil (40k), Incredible Hulk (100k), and Thor (42k), Thunderbolts does not have an audience to build off of. At the rate it's being dropped, it will probably reach anywhere between 17k - 15k by the time it becomes Dark Avengers. In this instance it would have been better to launch Dark Avengers with a new #1 as opposed to taking over a book that no one reads.

Having Jeff Parker as the writer doesn't help matters either. He is forever doomed to be a great writer who will drag books down to a slow, slow, slow death.

 

[hippie_hunter]

This isn't the first time this has happened. In Thunderbolts #75 all of the main characters were written out of the book and starting with #76 they went in a completely different direction involving underground superhero fightclubs. It was cancelled after 6 issues. They relaunched the book with a new #1 two years later in 2005 on the heels of Avengers Disassembled, calling it T-Bolts Reassembled. It was another year before they reverted to the original numbering.

I'm telling you now, this is going to be the same exact thing.

I don't see the Thunderbolts coming back when Dark Avengers fails.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Books from the major labels that sell less than 20,000 need to get cancelled plain and simple.

A retitling is not going to save this book. Every book that Marvel puts out that has been retitled has either been cancelled (Dark Wolverine, Incredible Hercules, Black Panther) or on the verge of cancellation (Journey into Mystery, Captain America &). Retitling a book has never worked in the modern era. It's just done to capture the audience that is already buying the book on a concept that would never sell to begin with and then once the reader figures out that the original protagonist is never coming back, they abandon the book en masse.

But what makes this title even more baffling is the fact that unlike Wolverine (65k), Captain America (45k), Daredevil (40k), Incredible Hulk (100k), and Thor (42k), Thunderbolts does not have an audience to build off of. At the rate it's being dropped, it will probably reach anywhere between 17k - 15k by the time it becomes Dark Avengers. In this instance it would have been better to launch Dark Avengers with a new #1 as opposed to taking over a book that no one reads.

Having Jeff Parker as the writer doesn't help matters either. He is forever doomed to be a great writer who will drag books down to a slow, slow, slow death.

I think your wrong

First off some sales figures for Thunderbolts from the last few years...

Month/year
01/06 #17 - 23,417
01/07 #110 - 64,996
01/08 #118 - 43,645
01/09 #128 - 39,219
=====
01/10 #140 - 28,644 ( -4.4%)
02/10 #141 - 33,948 (+18.5%)
03/10 #142 - 34,132 ( +0.5%)
04/10 #143 - 35,656 ( +4.5%)
05/10 #144 - 33,276 ( -6.7%)
06/10 #145 - 31,999 ( -3.8%)
07/10 #146 - 31,501 ( -1.6%)
08/10 #147 - 31,252 ( -0.8%)
09/10 #148 - 32,190 ( +3.0%)
10/10 #149 - 30,580 ( -5.0%)
11/10 #150 - 31,704 ( +3.7%)
12/10 #151 - 27,943 (-11.9%)
01/11 #152 - 26,515 ( -5.1%)
6 mnth (-15.8%)
1 year ( -7.4%)
2 year (-32.4%)
3 year (-39.2%)
4 year (-59.2%)
5 year (+13.2%)

T-bolts has been a lock solid 30k seller for a long time, In fact issue #17 sold only 23k and the franchise was revitalized around #110 with the arcs stemming from Civil War.

The book has proven to show lulls at times and bounce back. Ask yourself with the current arcs in T-bolts "why should people care" ...the roster is bad with Troll, Mr Hyde, Satanna, Boomerang, Etc.. It's not going to win people over. The book has an irrelevant feel to it.

Now ask yourself, what do we get if a book like this is cancelled...is marvel's formula working?

I'd argue no...the double ships and spin offs from "money books" certainly is no lock to work....


Some sales figures for around the 2010 period of some of these type books..

IRON MAN LEGACY
04/10 #1 - 48,956
05/10 #2 - 29,175 (-40.4%)
06/10 #3 - 23,340 (-20.0%)
07/10 #4 - 20,142 (-13.7%)
08/10 #5 - 17,773 (-11.8%)
09/10 #6 - 15,949 (-10.3%)
10/10 #7 - 14,882 ( -6.7%)
11/10 #8 - 13,686 ( -8.0%)
12/10 #9 - 12,483 ( -8.8%)
01/11 #10 - 12,349 ( -1.1%)
6 mnth (-38.7%)
Cancelled with issue #11.

THOR: FIRST THUNDER
09/10 #1 of 5 - 21,228
10/10 #2 of 5 - 16,126 (-24.0%)
11/10 #3 of 5 - 14,038 (-12.9%)
12/10 #4 of 5 - 12,620 (-10.1%)
01/11 #5 of 5 - 11,799 ( -6.5%)
More movie fodder.
X-MEN FOREVER
01/10 #15 - 17,665 ( -3.9%)
01/10 #16 - 17,290 ( -2.1%)
02/10 #17 - 17,873 ( +3.4%)
02/10 #18 - 16,464 ( -7.9%)
03/10 #19 - 16,183 ( -1.7%)
03/10 #20 - 15,990 ( -1.2%)
04/10 #21 - 15,530 ( -2.9%)
04/10 #22 - 15,305 ( -1.4%)
05/10 #23 - 15,045 ( -1.7%)
05/10 #24 - 14,940 ( -0.7%)
06/10 GS#1 - 15,039 ( +0.7%)
06/10 #1 - 16,094 ( +7.0%)
06/10 #2 - 14,933 ( -7.2%)
07/10 #3 - 14,151 ( -5.2%)
07/10 #4 - 13,835 ( -2.2%)
08/10 #5 - 13,632 ( -1.5%)
08/10 #6 - 13,351 ( -2.1%)
09/10 #7 - 12,869 ( -3.6%)
09/10 #8 - 12,753 ( -0.9%)
10/10 #9 - 12,260 ( -3.9%)
10/10 #10 - 12,064 (-16.0%)
11/10 #11 - 12,018 ( -0.4%)
11/10 #12 - 11,756 ( -2.2%)
12/10 #13 - 11,419 ( -2.9%)
12/10 #14 - 11,192 ( -2.0%)
01/11 #15 - 11,101 ( -0.8%)
01/11 #16 - 10,937 ( -1.5%)
6 mnth (-20.9%)
1 year (-38.1%)

X-MEN: TO SERVE AND PROTECT
09/10 Vampires #1 - 25,654
10/10 #2 of 2 - 23,362 ( -8.9%)
11/10 Serve #1 of 4 - 19,273 (-17.5%)
12/10 #2 of 4 - 15,976 (-17.1%)
01/11 #3 of 4 - 14,530 ( -9.1%)

RON MAN/THOR
11/10 #1 of 4 - 21,416
12/10 #2 of 4 - 15,977 (-25.4%)
01/11 #3 of 4 - 14,139 (-11.5%)

CAPTAIN AMERICA: MAN OUT OF TIME
11/10 #1 of 5 - 23,566
12/10 #2 of 5 - 14,582 (-38.1%)
01/11 #3 of 5 - 13,060 (-10.4%)
Movie fodder.

I AM AN AVENGER
09/10 #1 of 5 - 20,922
10/10 #2 of 5 - 14,882 (-28.9%)
11/10 #3 of 5 - 12,277 (-17.5%)
12/10 #4 of 5 - 11,242 ( -8.4%)
01/11 #5 of 5 - 10,520 ( -6.4%)

THOR: THE MIGHTY AVENGER
07/10 #1 - 20,076
07/10 #2 - 14,315 (-28.7%)
08/10 #3 - 12,112 (-15.4%)
09/10 #4 - 10,887 (-10.1%)
10/10 #5 - 9,673 (-11.2%)
11/10 #6 - 8,420 (-13.0%)
12/10 #7 - 8,244 ( -2.1%)
01/11 #8 - 8,323 ( +1.0%)
6 mnth (-41.9%)

I could put up more of this stuff...as it goes on and on.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Doesn't change the fact within the past couple of months that sales right now for the Thunderbolts are totally crashing, and it has more to do with than just the terrible roster. While Thunderbolts was much stronger in the past, people just don't care anymore. A lot of the sales you bring up are also when the comic book industry as a whole was in a much stronger position. The industry has been evolving and Thunderbolts really just doesn't have a place anymore.

 

[CConn]

I never realized Hulk outsold Cap by that much.

I like Hulk a lot, but it kinda mystifies me just how popular that character seems to remain at all times.

 

[Themanofbat]

I just canned Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Avengers, FF & FFour today... I just wasn't enjoying them.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Doesn't change the fact within the past couple of months that sales right now for the Thunderbolts are totally crashing, and it has more to do with than just the terrible roster. While Thunderbolts was much stronger in the past, people just don't care anymore. A lot of the sales you bring up are also when the comic book industry as a whole was in a much stronger position. The industry has been evolving and Thunderbolts really just doesn't have a place anymore.

Your just missing my point..that the book has had crashes and recovered just fine.

The sales for issue 110 the industry was in an equally bad spot, and saw a huge jump in sales because marvel did the kind of thing your supposed to do when a book needs a pickup.

-New direction, including huge changes to the lineup.
-New creative team, including Warren Ellis , a very popular choice
-They promoted the crap out said changes
-The book factored via tie ins to a lot of company wide arcs..IE..it was relevant.

For a book like T-bolts, thats what you do!


My second point is a marvel epidemic, that they outright cancel solid titles because of a lull in quality / sales and instead increase double shipping (which is a bit soon to judge) or put out these "core title" spin offs and 2ndary books that sell even more dismally. It does not work.

 

[runawayboulder]

I disagree that the Thunderbolts has no place at Marvel today. I think it would sell well if given a good direction.

 

[THANOSRULES]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/wondercon-2012-captain-marvel.html

Spoiler

Carol Danvers is the new Captain Marvel, a sane, decent choice. I was a big supporter of Ms. Marvel ongoing, and hope this means big things for the character.

 

[runawayboulder]

Ugh, she looks terrible.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I kind of dig it.

 

[Shockdingo]

Ditto, at first I was a bit unsure, but it was just my love of the old outfit. Nice to see Carol getting a push again.

 

[CConn]

The costume's not bad, it's that haircut that's rough.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I never realized Hulk outsold Cap by that much.

I like Hulk a lot, but it kinda mystifies me just how popular that character seems to remain at all times.

For real, I don't get the seemingly universal, consistent appeal the Hulk seems to have either. Whenever he's in his default mode--monosyllabic, Jekyll/Hyde-transforming idiot--he just irritates me. My favorite Hulk stuff has always been the periods where he abandons that default status quo--Professor Hulk, Fixit, Planet Hulk, mad scientist Banner, etc.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Your just missing my point..that the book has had crashes and recovered just fine.

The book crashed when John Arcudi took over but other than that, until Jeff Parker took over, Thunderbolts was relatively stable.

The sales for issue 110 the industry was in an equally bad spot, and saw a huge jump in sales because marvel did the kind of thing your supposed to do when a book needs a pickup.

The industry was nowhere near in the bad spot that it is today. Civil War was a huge success for Marvel and dramatically boosted sales for all of their books, even for the three issue tie-in for Thunderbolts. Riding off the Initiative, success continued on with Warren Ellis' run.

-New direction, including huge changes to the lineup.

Sorta like what they did with Jeff Parker taking over?

-New creative team, including Warren Ellis , a very popular choice

In today's market, not even top tier writers like Brian Michael Bendis cannot get lower tier characters like Spider-Woman and Moon Knight to sell. A top tier writer may boost the Thunderbolts back up to under 30k, but that's it.

-They promoted the crap out said changes

Promotions are becoming less and less relevant for lower tier books.

-The book factored via tie ins to a lot of company wide arcs..IE..it was relevant.

Event tie-ins don't work anymore. Why do you think that Marvel is only having one tie-in mini series and confining the tie-ins for AVX to just the core X-Men and Avengers books? Because even though the main Fear Itself series sold well, everything else related to it sold like crap. Sales continued to go down for books involved with Fear Itself like Thunderbolts.

For a book like T-bolts, thats what you do!

Except what used to work 5 years ago, doesn't work today.

My second point is a marvel epidemic, that they outright cancel solid titles because of a lull in quality / sales and instead increase double shipping (which is a bit soon to judge) or put out these "core title" spin offs and 2ndary books that sell even more dismally. It does not work.

Agreed.

I get what you're saying, but here's the problem. The comic book industry has changed. Industry habits change and peoples' buying habits change. Things that used to sell don't anymore. Events do not dramatically increase sales anymore. And of course Marvel's tactics like the $3.99 price point and double shipping hurt smaller tier books like Thunderbolts a lot.

If Marvel put out Warren Ellis' run on Thunderbolts in today's market, I doubt that people would have gone for it.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I might be tempted to try the new Thunderbolts since Skaar is in it but we'll see. I like Skaar and Luke so that could be a decent thing for me but I don't really want to try a new book. We'll see.

 

[THANOSRULES]

The book crashed when John Arcudi took over but other than that, until Jeff Parker took over, Thunderbolts was relatively stable.


The industry was nowhere near in the bad spot that it is today. Civil War was a huge success for Marvel and dramatically boosted sales for all of their books, even for the three issue tie-in for Thunderbolts. Riding off the Initiative, success continued on with Warren Ellis' run.


Sorta like what they did with Jeff Parker taking over?


In today's market, not even top tier writers like Brian Michael Bendis cannot get lower tier characters like Spider-Woman and Moon Knight to sell. A top tier writer may boost the Thunderbolts back up to under 30k, but that's it.


Promotions are becoming less and less relevant for lower tier books.


Event tie-ins don't work anymore. Why do you think that Marvel is only having one tie-in mini series and confining the tie-ins for AVX to just the core X-Men and Avengers books? Because even though the main Fear Itself series sold well, everything else related to it sold like crap. Sales continued to go down for books involved with Fear Itself like Thunderbolts.


Except what used to work 5 years ago, doesn't work today.


Agreed.

I get what you're saying, but here's the problem. The comic book industry has changed. Industry habits change and peoples' buying habits change. Things that used to sell don't anymore. Events do not dramatically increase sales anymore. And of course Marvel's tactics like the $3.99 price point and double shipping hurt smaller tier books like Thunderbolts a lot.

If Marvel put out Warren Ellis' run on Thunderbolts in today's market, I doubt that people would have gone for it.

I think your being fairly bold in some of your thoughts about how the market works, and what will work...there is a lot of history to those proven tactics, and I'd be doubtful if they've ceased..I actually disagree again on this...especially in light of what DC did in 2011 with the new 52.

That clearly showed that marketing, changes, and bold new directions (yet keeping true to the core of what they stood for) can "pay off" and generate sales. Even before the new 52 a book like green lantern was selling way beyond it's historical rate for many of these reasons.

When comparing 2011 to 2007 ..the industry was not drastically different..in fact it was only around a 10 percent drop. Civil War was also a major ..major event and we can't expect those every year. So one could argue that yes, the exact same thing worked in 2007 as 2011..except this time the buzz, marketing was with DC and the new 52.

Your thoughts about big writers not doing much for books is not exactly fair, moon knight and spider women have never sold. I doubt marvel even expected them too. For specific talent marvel deems worthy, it will grant almost carte blanche..and it's another reason marvel has not functioned...

Maybe we don't have many great examples of book "turn arounds" from the last 3 years because marvel has simply abandoned their faith in any books....again its a huge problem.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think your being fairly bold in some of your thoughts about how the market works, and what will work...there is a lot of history to those proven tactics, and I'd be doubtful if they've ceased..I actually disagree again on this...especially in light of what DC did in 2011 with the new 52.

What DC did with the New 52 is much different than what Marvel is doing with their events. DC did a much bigger advertising push with the New 52 and they were restarting everything for new readers.

That clearly showed that marketing, changes, and bold new directions (yet keeping true to the core of what they stood for) can "pay off" and generate sales. Even before the new 52 a book like green lantern was selling way beyond it's historical rate for many of these reasons.

I would say the high quality of the Green Lantern books did far more than the events. The events gave them the initial exposure, but the quality is what allowed readers to stay on.

When comparing 2011 to 2007 ..the industry was not drastically different..in fact it was only around a 10 percent drop. Civil War was also a major ..major event and we can't expect those every year. So one could argue that yes, the exact same thing worked in 2007 as 2011..except this time the buzz, marketing was with DC and the new 52.

Fear Itself was a major, major event. It totally failed to boost sales. People have gotten sick of the events. Sure, they'll buy the main series, but they have no desire to check out the tie-ins anymore.

Your thoughts about big writers not doing much for books is not exactly fair, moon knight and spider women have never sold. I doubt marvel even expected them too. For specific talent marvel deems worthy, it will grant almost carte blanche..and it's another reason marvel has not functioned...

I'm willing to bet that Marvel expected Spider-Woman and Moon Knight to sell much more. After all, Geoff Johns has managed to make Aquaman a top 10 book that outsells everything that Marvel puts out. ****ing Aquaman.

Maybe we don't have many great examples of book "turn arounds" from the last 3 years because marvel has simply abandoned their faith in any books....again its a huge problem.

That we can agree on. It's like they have given up on smaller books like Thunderbolts.

 

[The Morningstar]

As much as Marvel is to blame for not giving their books a chance, the readers should take the blame too.

Let's be frank, the vast majority of comic book readers are zombies who gobble up the "franchise" names. The books that Marvel tell them are the important ones. The books that are the main parts of events. The books that have the A-List characters. Regardless of quality. That's just the way it is. They are either "collectors" who buy anything with their favourite characters no matter how good or bad. Or they don't actually know what good comics are. Or both.

With the price of comics being so high it is harder to blame people for staying in their comfort zone though. Why experiment with T-Bolts and a bunch of characters you've never heard of when you can stick with the tried and trusted Avengers, even though it's garbage, quality wise.

 

[RockSP]

As much as Marvel is to blame for not giving their books a chance, the readers should take the blame too.

Let's be frank, the vast majority of comic book readers are zombies who gobble up the "franchise" names. The books that Marvel tell them are the important ones. The books that are the main parts of events. The books that have the A-List characters. Regardless of quality. That's just the way it is. They are either "collectors" who buy anything with their favourite characters no matter how good or bad. Or they don't actually know what good comics are. Or both.

Sad but true. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned "relevance". I don't get what so called relevance has to do with an enjoyable piece of fiction.

With the price of comics being so high it is harder to blame people for staying in their comfort zone though. Why experiment with T-Bolts and a bunch of characters you've never heard of when you can stick with the tried and trusted Avengers, even though it's garbage, quality wise.

This will baffle me until the end of time. If it's garbage...drop it.

 

[JewishHobbit]

This will baffle me until the end of time. If it's garbage...drop it.

Because 'garbage' is a matter of opinion. I buy the Avengers books and with the exception of the most recent arc of Avengers I've never concidered Bendis' Avengers to be garbage. In fact, I enjoy it all quite a bit. New Avengers itself is one of my favorite titels each month. It's all subjective.

 

[CConn]

But the problem is, a ton of people who think its garbage still buy it on a regular basis.

And that's dumb.

 

[RockSP]

But the problem is, a ton of people who think its garbage still buy it on a regular basis.

And that's dumb.

That's what I was talking about. Avengers was the example The Morningstar gave, but I was speaking in general. If you enjoy a book obviously you're not going to drop it. But if you think it sucks...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think the number of people continuing to read series that they think suck is smaller than we imagine. The vast majority of the people reading Bendis' Avengers comics are probably like JewHobs: They actually enjoy it. Unironically and everything. I know, it boggles my mind too, but there's no accounting for taste.

P.S. - You know you're my fave, JewHobs.