Batman Forever The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[Two-Face]

I don't think it's laughable at all, the opening sequence and credits like Batman Returns. It follows same route as Burton films. If only Schumacher followed Burton not just WB's kid friendly approach for the franchise.

 

[CountOrlok]

I don't want to see a fan edit. I just want to see the original cut of Batman Forever.

The theatrical cut re-arranged all the scenes. Beginning with the Two-Face bank robbery, when that was supposed to be after the introduction of Edward Nygma.

 

[Two-Face]

I would like Director's Cut version of Batman Forever of course but I like what fans try to do here. I don't see WB/Joel Schumacher planning anything anytime soon.

 

[Uncle Radiation]

I don't think it's laughable at all, the opening sequence and credits like Batman Returns. It follows same route as Burton films. If only Schumacher followed Burton not just WB's kid friendly approach for the franchise.

Yeah but he didn't, and he didn't for the entire 120 minute running time of the film. So there is no point trying to make the credits all 'Burton-like' to convince yourself it's really a dark movie.

 

[Jason Kane]

I don't want to see a fan edit. I just want to see the original cut of Batman Forever.

The theatrical cut re-arranged all the scenes. Beginning with the Two-Face bank robbery, when that was supposed to be after the introduction of Edward Nygma.

Which the WB won't do even long after you and I are long dead and buried nor do I see FX's DVD on TV getting a chance to connect the dots with the deleted scenes anytime soon.

A fan reconstruction of the whole thing's the only way to go

 

[AnneFan]

So there is no point trying to make the credits all 'Burton-like' to convince yourself it's really a dark movie.

Agreed. I don't see the point of people Burtonising BF with their edits, making it something it's not and never was. It's a Joel Schumacher directed movie with Elliot Goldenthal scoring. I'd simply like to see nothing from the existing version cut at all with the deleted scenes included.

 

[CountOrlok]

Two-Face survived?

In his audio commentary for the DVD anthology, Schumacher states that he did not wish to have Batman kill anyone in Batman Forever. It is assumed Two-Face perished but Schumacher pointed out on the commentary track that we are not shown that Two-Face actually died, and one can assume that because his jacket is in the Arkham storage room in Batman & Robin, he also survived.

 

[Jason Kane]

^^I've always thought about that. The fact his suit was hanging right along with Nygma's means he didn't die and the Schumacher era Bats didn't kill

 

[CountOrlok]

[YT]EI9GMP_A7RI[/YT]

The Batwing/Batboat attack on Claw Island (Riddler's lair) has always been one of my favourite scenes in the franchise. Especially the shot of the Batwing bursting through the bat signal. Toyetic? Maybe, but I don't care.

 

[The Joker]

^^I've always thought about that. The fact his suit was hanging right along with Nygma's means he didn't die and the Schumacher era Bats didn't kill

Then why did Robin have such a look of satisfaction when Dent fell? Fairly obvious that he was dead.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[CountOrlok]

Then why did Robin have such a look of satisfaction when Dent fell? Fairly obvious that he was dead.

People have been known to survive jumping off the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge. It's possible Two-Face could have survived.

 

[The Joker]

People have been known to survive jumping off the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge. It's possible Two-Face could have survived.

It's got nothing to do with it. The movie gives the strong implication that he died there. That's why Robin looked satisfied when Dent fell because his family's killer was dead. It's why we only see Riddler in Arkham at the end crowing about knowing who Batman is, instead of both of them. Chase having to reassure Bruce that his secret is safe because Nygma is a whacko. If Dent lived they'd have to worry about him spilling the beans, too. If Two Face had survived, there would have been some kind of reference to it.

When Tommy Lee Jones heard Two Face was coming back to the movies in TDK, he was confused because he thought Two Face was dead in the movies;

"Really?" Tommy Lee Jones said over the weekend, when told that Harvey "Two-Face" Dent was appearing in next July's Batman sequel "The Dark Knight." "I thought he died."

Well yeah, Tommy, your Two-Face fell to his death at the end of 1995's "Batman Forever". But now Chris Nolan has taken over the franchise after "Batman Begins," and he gave you and Nicholson the Heisman in favor of "Dark Knight" villains Heath Ledger and Aaron Eckhart.

"Oh," the Oscar winner replied, insisting that he hadn't heard the casting news. "I didn't know that."

"But yeah, he's a good guy," Jones said of Eckhart's selection as his successor. "I've worked with him. He's an awfully good guy."

http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2007/11/08/tommy-lee-jones-surprised-by-the-two-faces-of-harvey-dent/

 

[Jason Kane]

Then why did Robin have such a look of satisfaction when Dent fell? Fairly obvious that he was dead.

Or so he assumed. Who's to say he and Bats didn't hoisted him out of there shortly after hearing a single cough (albeit off screen)

 

[Jason Kane]

It's got nothing to do with it. The movie gives the implication that he died there. That's why Robin looked satisfied when Dent fell because his family's killer was dead. It's why we only see Riddler in Arkham at the end crowing about knowing who Batman is, instead of both of them. Chase having to reassure Bruce that his secret is safe because Nygma is a whacko. If Dent lived they'd have to worry about him spilling the beans, too.

There's always the idea of Dent ending up comatose

 

[The Joker]

Or so he assumed. Who's to say he and Bats didn't hoisted him out of there shortly after hearing a single cough (albeit off screen)

Because the ending of Forever would have them worrying about both Dent and Nygma telling Bruce's secret identity, instead of just Nygma. Because Nygma lived, Dent didn't.

Not to mention what he fell into was a bed of spikes;

Same thing that was supposed to kill Chase and Robin. If Tommy Lee Jones thought he was dead, then he was obviously told he was.

There's always the idea of Dent ending up comatose

Now you're just going into fan fiction territory.

 

[I Am The Knight]

He's dead. There is absolutely nothing in the movie that indicates otherwise.

BTW, that pic of Bruce confronting the Bat is awesome!

 

[Two-Face]

Two-Face died period. They show his coin landing on his hand as he swiped away. Its a deep watery grave.

 

[CountOrlok]

Not to mention what he fell into was a bed of spikes;

We don't know how wide that pit is. Two-Face could've landed in between the spikes.

Same thing that was supposed to kill Chase and Robin. If Tommy Lee Jones thought he was dead, then he was obviously told he was.

I'll take the director's opinion over the actor's.

Now you're just going into fan fiction territory.

It's possible Dent could've been comatose. If WB had ever decided to bring him back for a sequel. Since we didn't actually see him die.

It doesn't even say that he dies in the script. Just that he "falls":

As Two-Face reaches out to catch it, he loses his balance
and falls to the rocks and angry sea below.

http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/scriptdb/media/727.html

 

[The Joker]

Attention everyone; I just listened to Schumacher's commentary of B&R at that criminal property locker scene (actually I listened to the whole Arkham escape scene), and he doesn't mention anything about Dent possibly still being alive because he doesn't like the idea of Batman killing. All he says while laughing is that is the criminal property locker room where he guesses they'd have to keep the criminals clothes like Riddler's and Two Face's.

He also says in the scene where Freeze and Ivy are escaping Arkham, he says a lot of people thought they were recreating the 60's TV show, and he says they never were. He and Akiva never discussed that he says. He says they were just trying to inject more fun into it. They were not trying to do the Adam West show, but he says he can understand why people thought they were.

We don't know how wide that pit is. Two-Face could've landed in between the spikes.

Don't talk nonsense. It's a pit designed to drop people to their deaths. So obviously the spikes are placed so they will impale anyone who falls into them. There's hardly going to be big enough gaps between them for people's bodies to slip through lol.

I'll take the director's opinion over the actor's.

I just listened to the commentary, that scene in particular, and he never said what you said above. So where are you getting this from?

If Schumacher didn't like the idea of Batman killing anyone, he would have done the scene completely differently to how Two Face falls that didn't involve Batman causing it, or he would have specified in BF that Dent is alive or still could be by mentioning no body was found, or he was in a coma. Anything. But he didn't.

Robin got justice because Dent died, hence the satisfied look on his face when Dent fell.

If the character was supposed to be alive in any way, shape, or form, at the end then the movie would have specified it, and Jones and the majority of the audience wouldn't be thinking he was dead. And still do. Because he is.

It's possible Dent could've been comatose. If WB had ever decided to bring him back for a sequel. Since we didn't actually see him die.

What did you want to see his bloody body impaled on spikes in a movie that was trying to pull the kids back in after the BR backlash lol? Pull the other one. You don't have to see someone die to know they're dead. The movie gives no indication what so ever that he survived the fall into that spiked pit, but it gives the very clear indicator he did based on Robin's satisfied look when he falls to his death.

It doesn't even say that he dies in the script. Just that he "falls":

As Two-Face reaches out to catch it, he loses his balance
and falls to the rocks and angry sea below.

http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/scriptdb/media/727.html

The same script you kept using for that ridiculous multiple coin tossing argument you lost a few pages back, with all the changes to scenes in the movie. LOL even the scene in question is different since there's no Batman throwing the multiple coins that causes Dent to fall. In that script there Dent tries to catch his coin and he over balances and falls.

Just another of the myriad of differences between the movie and that script. Therefore invalid.

 

[CountOrlok]

EDIT; I just listened to Schumacher's commentary of the movie at that criminal property locker scene, and he doesn't mention anything about Dent possibly still being alive because he doesn't like the idea of Batman killing. All he says while laughing is that is the criminal property locker room where they'd have to keep the criminals clothes like Riddler's and Two Face's.

He also says in the scene where Freeze and Ivy are escaping Arkham, he says a lot of people thought they were recreating the 60's TV show, and he says they never were. He and Akiva never discussed that he says. He says they were just trying to inject more fun into it. They were not trying to do the Adam West show, but he says he can understand why people thought they were.

It's in the Batman Forever commentary. I haven't listened to the Batman and Robin commentary so I'm not sure.

Don't talk nonsense. It's a pit designed to drop people to their deaths. So obviously the spikes are placed so they will impale anyone who falls into them. There's hardly going to be big enough gaps between them for people's bodies to slip through lol.

The fall alone would have killed them. Two-Face fell from about half-way down, so he had a better chance of surviving.

Robin got justice because Dent died, hence the satisfied look on his face when Dent fell.

If the character was supposed to be alive in any way, shape, or form, at the end then the movie would have specified it, and Jones and the majority of the audience wouldn't be thinking he was dead. And still do. Because he is.

Maybe Robin thought he died. I mean, it's fairly easy to assume that he would be dead.

But then again, listen to what Schumacher said in the BF commentary.

What did you want to see his bloody body impaled on spikes in a movie that was trying to pull the kids back in after the BR backlash lol? Pull the other one. You don't have to see someone die to know they're dead. The movie gives no indication what so ever that he survived the fall into that spiked pit, but it gives the very clear indicator he did based on Robin's satisfied look when he falls to his death.

Again, listen to the Batman Forever commentary. At Two-Face's death scene.

"We did not know if the film was going to be successful. We didn't know if there were going to be sequels. I wanted to keep the possibility that the villains would come back if Warners needed it. I didn't expect to be doing another Batman movie myself at the time. But I left Harvey.. you don't really know if Harvey's dead or not and Jim certainly is not dead." - Joel Schumacher (BF commentary)

The same script you kept using for that ridiculous multiple coin tossing argument you lost a few pages back, with all the changes to scenes in the movie.

Nobody won or lost that argument. The discussion is still open.

LOL even the scene in question is different since there's no Batman throwing the multiple coins that causes Dent to fall. In that script there Dent tries to catch his coin and he over balances and falls.

Just another of the myriad of differences between the movie and that script. Therefore invalid.

So the script has nothing to do with the movie, then?

 

[The Joker]

It's in the Batman Forever commentary. I haven't listened to the Batman and Robin commentary so I'm not sure.

I have. It doesn't mention it at all.

The fall alone would have killed them. Two-Face fell from about half-way down, so he had a better chance of surviving.

Nonsense. The length of the fall Dent had was long enough to definitively kill anyone. He falls for several seconds. They were very high up. Not to mention landing on those spikes would have finished him off.

Maybe Robin thought he died. I mean, it's fairly easy to assume that he would be dead.

But then again, listen to what Schumacher said in the BF commentary.

I just did. All he says is he didn't like the idea of Batman murdering anyone, so rather than directly kill him he has him defeat him with his own coin, which leads him to fall. So it's not Batman directly killing Two Face.

Again, listen to the Batman Forever commentary. At Two-Face's death scene.

"We did not know if the film was going to be successful. We didn't know if there were going to be sequels. I wanted to keep the possibility that the villains would come back if Warners needed it. I didn't expect to be doing another Batman movie myself at the time. But I left Harvey.. you don't really know if Harvey's dead or not and Jim certainly is not dead." - Joel Schumacher (BF commentary)

Again that is not a confirmation that Dent survived. He's just saying you don't know definitively that he is dead. But the movie clearly implies he is based on Robin's facial expression, along with the lack of any mention of his survival afterward. And Tommy Lee Jones thinking he was dead, too.

Nobody won or lost that argument. The discussion is still open.

Only for you. You were proven wrong. You just couldn't let it go. So you were ignored.

So the script has nothing to do with the movie, then?

A script that has more changes to it than you can count? No, how can that be used as a validity for your argument when what you're saying could easily have been changed along with all the other things that were?

 

[CountOrlok]

I have. It doesn't mention it at all.



Nonsense. The length of the fall Dent had was long enough to definitively kill anyone. He falls for several seconds. They were very high up. Not to mention landing on those spikes would have finished him off.

I repeat - people have survived falling off the Golden Gate Bridge, it's in the documentary The Bridge (2006) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_(2006_documentary_film)

Also, he could have fell in-between the spikes.

Again that is not a confirmation that Dent survived. He's just saying you don't know definitively that he is dead. But the movie clearly implies he is based on Robin's facial expression, along with the lack of any mention of his survival afterward. And Tommy Lee Jones thinking he was dead, too.

I'm not trying to argue that he survived, just based on the director's comments, we don't know if he is definitely dead.

Only for you. You were proven wrong. You just couldn't let it go. So you were ignored.

No offense, but that is an extremely arrogant thing to say.

A script that has more changes to it than you can count? No, how can that be used as a validity for your argument when what you're saying could easily have been changed along with all the other things that were?

Well if it said that he died in the script, that would go against my case, wouldn't it? That would prove intent on the part of the scriptwriter.

 

[The Shape]

Do we really care whether Two face definitively died or not?

 

[The Joker]

I repeat - people have survived falling off the Golden Gate Bridge, it's in the documentary The Bridge (2006) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_(2006_documentary_film)

This is such a strawman argument. There's people who have survived gun shots to the heart, and to the head, too.

It's not a vindication citing the Golden Gate bridge survivors as proof that Dent was alive at the end of BF.

Also, he could have fell in-between the spikes.

It was a death trap set up with special trap doors above to drop people in.

As if someone was dumb enough to design it so the spikes were so far apart that a whole body could land between them lol.

I'm not trying to argue that he survived, just based on the director's comments, we don't know if he is definitely dead.

I'm saying based on the movie it's heavily implied he is, whereas nothing in the movie implies he isn't.

Schumacher making comments on the DVD commentary that they never say definitively of his fate is just repeating something we already knew. The movie never does outright say it, it just implies it. It never implies he could still be alive.

No offense, but that is an extremely arrogant thing to say.

Not arrogant, just confident.

Well if it said that he died in the script, that would go against my case, wouldn't it? That would prove intent on the part of the scriptwriter.

A lot of things that were intended to be in it by the scriptwriter were not. That's why that script is not worth anything as a source of validity. There's far too many changes between it and the movie.