First Avenger The "OFFICIAL" CA:TFA Negative Reaction Thread

[cryptic name]

The weird part is I read that Hydra will be based in [BLACKOUT]France[/BLACKOUT]

that's not that weird, Germany was occupying

Spoiler

France

.

 

[cryptic name]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.. well.. that's stupid, why would Red Skull do that? Unless he's not a Nazi....

he's a Nazi in control of his own branch of the German military, he's also power mad and views himself as above Hitler and the party.

 

[marcvader]

Yes, it seems this is a concept people can't get their heads around. One more thing, this is a comicbook movie not a History Channel documentary. If that's what you want lord knows there's something playing on the subject somewhere.

 

[Mercurius]

The problem begins when some smartypants drops in the word "realism".

Then of course Hydra is something odd, as well as Captain America, and even this shabby impersonator they got to the movie in the place of Captain America.

 

[captainrogers]

The problem begins when some smartypants drops in the word "realism".

Then of course Hydra is something odd, as well as Captain America, and even this shabby impersonator they got to the movie in the place of Captain America.

I agree about that word. Heck, I'll be the first to admit to using it to describe something within a film as 'reslistic'. I think the word 'realism' needs to be replaced by 'believability'. All things just need to be percieved work within the grand scale of the film or films they are set in. I could easily see Caps suit, Hydra, and what we know of this incarnation of the Cube, working within, not only the world film Cap inhabits, but also the world established in the Hulk, Ironman and the soon to be released Thor. Nazis are in the movie. I must have missed the part where they stated in the script that America was no longer involved in WW2. (is that what the knee-jerk is ATM?)
Merc, you and I disagree on A LOT regarding this film, but the precedeing part of this post is not directed at you, just wanted to quote you on the 'realism' bit.
As for the part of 'Cap impersonator'...well.... He's no more an impersonator than was Ironman, Banner, and Thor is... Being actors and all. By all accounts, Evans seems to have a good take on the Character. Can't say for sure tho, until we see some of him as Cap in action on screen....but everything we are hearing/seeing with the production is rewarding my optimism with this film.
(well, Merc, of course you could've meant the 'impersonator' bit the same way I did, but things written on the internets sometimes don't translate so well in text form, and I only have your past posts to go on. But if not, at least we've common ground on one thing, right?)
*fist pound a la Ken and Ryu*

 

[Silvermoth]

Yes, it seems this is a concept people can't get their heads around. One more thing, this is a comicbook movie not a History Channel documentary. If that's what you want lord knows there's something playing on the subject somewhere.

I really don't think in a post "The Dark Knight" world we need comic book films that are just big schlocky dumb blockbusters. People seem to be using the "it's just a comic book movie" excuse alot lately as if comic book films are not meant to be good or even mean anything.

Thats what annoys me most about Captain America. They could, and should, have gone for something great and aimed for something like the Dark Knight rather than what looks like a toy commercial with a "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" feel to it.

 

[marcvader]

Well, these movies and comics were always made for the 12 year old in all of us. Just because you're getting older doesn't mean you need to become cynical and lose those sensibilities. Superman the movie, Indiana Jones, Star Wars all of those were made in that vein to varying degrees and I think Cap should as well.

 

[Mercurius]

I agree about that word. Heck, I'll be the first to admit to using it to describe something within a film as 'reslistic'. I think the word 'realism' needs to be replaced by 'believability'. All things just need to be percieved work within the grand scale of the film or films they are set in. I could easily see Caps suit, Hydra, and what we know of this incarnation of the Cube, working within, not only the world film Cap inhabits, but also the world established in the Hulk, Ironman and the soon to be released Thor. Nazis are in the movie. I must have missed the part where they stated in the script that America was no longer involved in WW2. (is that what the knee-jerk is ATM?)
Merc, you and I disagree on A LOT regarding this film, but the precedeing part of this post is not directed at you, just wanted to quote you on the 'realism' bit.
As for the part of 'Cap impersonator'...well.... He's no more an impersonator than was Ironman, Banner, and Thor is... Being actors and all. By all accounts, Evans seems to have a good take on the Character. Can't say for sure tho, until we see some of him as Cap in action on screen....but everything we are hearing/seeing with the production is rewarding my optimism with this film.
(well, Merc, of course you could've meant the 'impersonator' bit the same way I did, but things written on the internets sometimes don't translate so well in text form, and I only have your past posts to go on. But if not, at least we've common ground on one thing, right?)
*fist pound a la Ken and Ryu*

t: Nice one, cap.

I don't dislike Evans. Really liked him as Human Torch/Johnny Storm (one of the two nice things in those dreadful movies).

But to look at him dressed as Captain America, in this recent good photo, is a bit sad. It is Evans dressed AS Captain America. Downey Junior doesn't let room for you to think he is anything but Stark and Iron Man. Evans has this boyish thing.

Which is good, he certainly is a nice chap, but not to play CA, 'cause even if he can display some gravitas as an actor, his boyish features betray him.

And, of course, as you know, in my opinion those poor loose garments and motorcycle cap are not helping him. They just make him look like a weirdo, dressed in a size plus, holding the one decent thing they were able to manufacture: the glorious shield.

Iron Man looked perfect from the first shot. Thor has one or two major complaints, but the pics and trailers got people impressed.

Not the same thing with Captain America. Even those who are declaring undying love for this movie are doing it in a wishing well sorta way. They are markedly stressing that it's good, when one knows that when it looks that good, nobody needs to make defense en bloc.

 

[captainrogers]

Differing opinions my friend, differing opinions. Evans was not my first choice, but damn if I didn't see Steve Rogers in those shots of him out of costume on the street. I'll adamantly defend or denounce this movie when I see the finished product. But I'll defend my opinion that the suit looks sweet. Wish I had one actually.

 

[Rock Sexton]

But to look at him dressed as Captain America, in this recent good photo, is a bit sad. It is Evans dressed AS Captain America. Downey Junior doesn't let room for you to think he is anything but Stark and Iron Man. Evans has this boyish thing.

Which is good, he certainly is a nice chap, but not to play CA, 'cause even if he can display some gravitas as an actor, his boyish features betray him.

And, of course, as you know, in my opinion those poor loose garments and motorcycle cap are not helping him. They just make him look like a weirdo, dressed in a size plus, holding the one decent thing they were able to manufacture: the glorious shield.

I'm with you on this issue. My personal opinion is that he looks nothing the part at all and the fact that the suit deviated so much from the iconic look makes it even worse for me. Every time I think of Steve Rogers I imagine someone like this:

I get the fact the Steve Rogers was in his young 20's, but that doesn't mean he has to look so young. I also imagine him as someone with a far more commanding vocal tone .... someone like say Armie Hammer (alas he was too tall for the role) ..... Just having a really hard time imagine Evans on screen being able convincingly lead this group. I couldn't even buy him leading a tween in "Push" ....

 

[captainrogers]

I'm with you on this issue. My personal opinion is that he looks nothing the part at all and the fact that the suit deviated so much from the iconic look makes it even worse for me. Every time I think of Steve Rogers I imagine someone like this:

I get the fact the Steve Rogers was in his young 20's, but that doesn't mean he has to look so young. I also imagine him as someone with a far more commanding vocal tone .... someone like say Armie Hammer (alas he was too tall for the role) ..... Just having a really hard time imagine Evans on screen being able convincingly lead this group. I couldn't even buy him leading a tween in "Push" ....

Ugh. Push. So many things wrong with that movie. I really couldn't fault the cast, tho. Story was just crap. Sunshine was where the "Cap" in Evans started to break through. Watching that made it an easier sell to me. Kinda like when I watched Bale in Equilibrium, I saw a bit of what it took to pull off Wayne/the Bat. (tho I don't like his growly Bat-voice)
I do see that Evans has a younger look. Hopefully his face matures over the next few years. I just think of Brad Pitt at the beginning of his Career. Boyish good looks. Pitt in Troy looked Cap-like. I remember there being a contingency of folks who did want Pitt for the role.
If only we could create the Perfect Man....

 

[Rock Sexton]

Ugh. Push. So many things wrong with that movie. I really couldn't fault the cast, tho. Story was just crap. Sunshine was where the "Cap" in Evans started to break through. Watching that made it an easier sell to me. Kinda like when I watched Bale in Equilibrium, I saw a bit of what it took to pull off Wayne/the Bat. (tho I don't like his growly Bat-voice)
I do see that Evans has a younger look. Hopefully his face matures over the next few years. I just think of Brad Pitt at the beginning of his Career. Boyish good looks. Pitt in Troy looked Cap-like. I remember there being a contingency of folks who did want Pitt for the role.
If only we could create the Perfect Man....

I watched Sunshine. Granted he managed to deviate from his normal type casted roles, but I still didn't see anything that made me take notice. That's just me though, I guess we all get from it what we do.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I really don't think in a post "The Dark Knight" world we need comic book films that are just big schlocky dumb blockbusters. People seem to be using the "it's just a comic book movie" excuse alot lately as if comic book films are not meant to be good or even mean anything.

Thats what annoys me most about Captain America. They could, and should, have gone for something great and aimed for something like the Dark Knight rather than what looks like a toy commercial with a "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" feel to it.

Nolan has brainwashed you. Comic book films should be ultra-unrealistic, and dumb.

 

[JAK®]

I really don't think in a post "The Dark Knight" world we need comic book films that are just big schlocky dumb blockbusters. People seem to be using the "it's just a comic book movie" excuse alot lately as if comic book films are not meant to be good or even mean anything.

Thats what annoys me most about Captain America. They could, and should, have gone for something great and aimed for something like the Dark Knight rather than what looks like a toy commercial with a "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" feel to it.

**** The Dark Knight.

It was a good movie and that's it. The only comic book movie it should influence is The Dark Knight Rises.

 

[peterparker0077]

he's a Nazi in control of his own branch of the German military, he's also power mad and views himself as above Hitler and the party.

yes, that's whay he's suppose to be... is that what he is in this movie though? If so, awesome.

 

[peterparker0077]

I'm with you on this issue. My personal opinion is that he looks nothing the part at all and the fact that the suit deviated so much from the iconic look makes it even worse for me. Every time I think of Steve Rogers I imagine someone like this:

I get the fact the Steve Rogers was in his young 20's, but that doesn't mean he has to look so young. I also imagine him as someone with a far more commanding vocal tone .... someone like say Armie Hammer (alas he was too tall for the role) ..... Just having a really hard time imagine Evans on screen being able convincingly lead this group. I couldn't even buy him leading a tween in "Push" ....

That's my favorite take on Capt and his costume so far, wish it had some wings though. I wish they'd make an animated movie like they did that game.. I do think Evans will be able to pull it off though. Here's to hoping...

 

[peterparker0077]

The problem begins when some smartypants drops in the word "realism".

Then of course Hydra is something odd, as well as Captain America, and even this shabby impersonator they got to the movie in the place of Captain America.

The "realisim" being talked about is the real history of Captain America, why he was created, and what he stood for, and what our country was going through in the real world at that time. And the fact of what makes Capt different than any other superhero, that he was the only superhero created to fight a real enemy.

 

[Mercurius]

The "realisim" being talked about is the real history of Captain America, why he was created, and what he stood for, and what our country was going through in the real world at that time. And the fact of what makes Capt different than any other superhero, that he was the only superhero created to fight a real enemy.

There is no "real story" of Captain America, for the simple reason that he isn't real. There is a bunch of versions that are variations of skinny guy applies to war, converted in supersoldier by a serum, dresses the colours of the star spangled, embraces shield, symbol of hope, etc.

No realism at all. That's the very definition of fantasy.

What the country was going through won't be portrayed, because reality is much more complex, political reasons intervene, top secret unpopular decisions are made, a lot of dark tones blur the "pure" solution of a dream.

And the real enemy is not real, EVEN if it is the Nazis. In such a movie, the enemy is a caricature of evil, and not the complex understanding of that particular evil, like one can watch in movies like Hierschbiegel's Downfall (with the absolutely brilliant Bruno Ganz as Hitler) and Sokurov's Moloch.

They strive for realism, albeit in a fictional milieu.

Captain America, no matter what, is downright fantasy.

 

[Rock Sexton]

That's my favorite take on Capt and his costume so far, wish it had some wings though. I wish they'd make an animated movie like they did that game.. I do think Evans will be able to pull it off though. Here's to hoping...

A full-on CGI Avengers movie would've knocked it right out of the park.

 

[Silvermoth]

There is no "real story" of Captain America, for the simple reason that he isn't real. There is a bunch of versions that are variations of skinny guy applies to war, converted in supersoldier by a serum, dresses the colours of the star spangled, embraces shield, symbol of hope, etc.

No realism at all. That's the very definition of fantasy.

What the country was going through won't be portrayed, because reality is much more complex, political reasons intervene, top secret unpopular decisions are made, a lot of dark tones blur the "pure" solution of a dream.

And the real enemy is not real, EVEN if it is the Nazis. In such a movie, the enemy is a caricature of evil, and not the complex understanding of that particular evil, like one can watch in movies like Hierschbiegel's Downfall (with the absolutely brilliant Bruno Ganz as Hitler) and Sokurov's Moloch.

They strive for realism, albeit in a fictional milieu.

Captain America, no matter what, is downright fantasy.

I don't believe you have to sacrifice believability for fantasy. X-men showed how prejudice affects people in our society and even showed a Holocaust scene and it was still a fantasy. Those moments made the film relevant and made people want to see it.

No-one is looking for a caricature here but the nazis are a definete evil threat. No one is saying the Red Skull should be a slogan waving moustache twirling caricature, quite the opposite in fact. They want to see Red Skull as the antithesis of Captain America, a reflection of a propoganda symbol used for evil purposes. Removing his nazism or minimalising it at all removes an important character trait from the Red Skull and reduces the analogy of superheroes as a metaphor for World War II. Captain America fights the nazis. That's what he does.

If you change Captain America into a G.I Joe character designed to give people mindless entertainment they'll just switch off and go watch something like The Dark Knight Returns which they will be sure can offer them thrills, great character moments and intelligent plotting. Think about the role of social networking today. It played a huge role in the success of movies like "The Social Network".

Also, don't forget that Captain America is not a guy who can shoot lasers out of his arms. He's not a norse god. He didn't escape an exploding planet. He's unique in that he's an ordinary human being with enhanced skills in an extraordinary setting and the movie should reflect his grounded abilities and personality.

This film just looks silly and I think people can tell it's aimed at selling things to children rather than giving an actual film experience. This will be the greatest difficulty in marketing Captain America (and then later on the Avengers, which also must be considered).

 

[Microchip]

I don't like the Hydra costumes, I don't like the Hydra vehicles, I don't like the amount of focus Hydra gets in the movie, and I don't like anything from Joe Johnston outside of October Sky!

Whew, glad I got that out of my system. Once I see the trailer, I'll know better whether or not my fears matter, or if they'll be able to turn all that into a good movie!

 

[roach]

1) the costume: I heard all the arguements for it."Its what a GI would wear back then' "No one wants to see him running around in a flag suit" and it baffles my mind. The WW2 suit that we see him wear is not standard issue for WW2 GIs. The colors of his costume dont match the colors of his shield.
2)The USO suit which is probably the 616 suit will be something that is made fun of

 

[Mercurius]

I don't believe you have to sacrifice believability for fantasy. X-men showed how prejudice affects people in our society and even showed a Holocaust scene and it was still a fantasy. Those moments made the film relevant and made people want to see it.

No-one is looking for a caricature here but the nazis are a definete evil threat. No one is saying the Red Skull should be a slogan waving moustache twirling caricature, quite the opposite in fact. They want to see Red Skull as the antithesis of Captain America, a reflection of a propoganda symbol used for evil purposes. Removing his nazism or minimalising it at all removes an important character trait from the Red Skull and reduces the analogy of superheroes as a metaphor for World War II. Captain America fights the nazis. That's what he does.

If you change Captain America into a G.I Joe character designed to give people mindless entertainment they'll just switch off and go watch something like The Dark Knight Returns which they will be sure can offer them thrills, great character moments and intelligent plotting. Think about the role of social networking today. It played a huge role in the success of movies like "The Social Network".

Also, don't forget that Captain America is not a guy who can shoot lasers out of his arms. He's not a norse god. He didn't escape an exploding planet. He's unique in that he's an ordinary human being with enhanced skills in an extraordinary setting and the movie should reflect his grounded abilities and personality.

This film just looks silly and I think people can tell it's aimed at selling things to children rather than giving an actual film experience. This will be the greatest difficulty in marketing Captain America (and then later on the Avengers, which also must be considered).

I have never said to turn Captain America into "a G.I. Joe character designed to give people a mindless entertainment".

Quite the contrary, as I am opposed to this opportunistic and unimaginative thing of making him wear this loose, padded horror of a costume with a half-cap, half helmet motorcycle club stuff on the top of his head. For him to be a, ah-ham, "soldier", or more or less something closer to that absurd idea.

So, I suppose we can leave this aside.

About believability: all good fiction is believable, be it outwordly The Lord of the Rings or The Doinel series, by Truffaut.

And believable is in no sense the same as "realism". Realism is an effort to portray reality without the addition of supernatural interference. It's to keep the proportions of our life as we know it from experience.

Believability is in the realm of the famous Coleridge dictum of the "suspension of disbelief": the wonders will be made in order to be accepted by our ideals, or as a purging fantasy.

I think this movie looks REALLY silly because its director and crew cannot understand that once you've opted for the "super" idea that's what you have to keep the proportions, and to harvest a result like Dark Knight, Iron Man and Hellboy, among few other good examples worth mentioning, that will endure the test of time.

Either one respects the icon, or one's movie sinks and stinks.

 

[roach]

I dont think trying to capture real WW2 was the right thing. I think they should have tried for Marvel's WW2...where vampires and giant robots fought in the war.

 

[JAK®]

I dont think trying to capture real WW2 was the right thing. I think they should have tried for Marvel's WW2...where vampires and giant robots fought in the war.

But they are doing that, kind of. HYDRA is the main enemy of the movie, Red Skull has the Cosmic Cube, there appear to be robot drones/men in battle armour...