The Official Costume Thread - - - - - - - - - - Part 19

[Tyrone Parker]

 

[Herolee10]

Tbh; I would have preferred that design over the one that we currently have.

 

[Nevaratoiel]

I think if they made the costume like that I would be less miffed... Still miss the trunks, but at least there's something red in that, um... area. it sort of breaks the blue. Y'know?

Nice manipulation, by the way.

 

[KyleDW2]

Meh, there's nothing left to say. Tradition sucks and Siegel and Shuster are nothing but two dead Jews, etc.

I've given up. Nothing lasts forever. It's not like I can change any minds if I'm nice or if I'm an ass.

Yes, because if you don't mind change you totally want to stick it to those...how did you put it? Those two dead Jews?

Really, by saying something as inflammatory as that, you just show that your attitude is probably the exact opposite of what S&S wanted Superman to stand for. Hell, they'd probably be embarrassed at how you're acting in their name. I know if I created something and one of my fans acted the way you are I wouldn't like it. But hey, this opinion is obviously coming from a hater of those two dead Jews, so what do I know?

 

[Scuba]

They didn't have to.

Honestly, I just don't care anymore.

No thoughts on the pretty well thought-out MASH analogy a poster made a few days ago? It was right on the mark and pretty much applies your exact logic.

 

[TheDragonator]

I guess Kuro realized how hypocritical that statement was. He also apparently equates liking the costume means you view the creators as 'two dead Jews' (why specifying the Jewish part is beyond me).

 

[Dr.]

He also apparently equates liking the costume means you view the creators as 'two dead Jews' (why specifying the Jewish part is beyond me).

Because any deviation from the traditional design = antisemitic. Though... I believe Snyder is Jewish. So there may be a slight flaw in the calculus.

 

[Scuba]

Kurosawa is a militant Superman fanatic and anyone who doesn't subscribe to his "puritanical" vision is a moron, I guess. I'm learning quick around here.


The problem is, Kuro, Superman is a concept. It's an idea with a general mythology to it, and that story has grown, regressed, and plain ol' changed over the years. If it hadn't, Superman would've died an earlier and much more permanent death than he did in 1993.


The character doesn't belong to the Shusters anymore, or to you. He belongs to everyone who is a fan, including Snyder. And he's got the means to add the next great flourishes to the character. I, for one, am excited.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Kurosawa is a militant Superman fanatic and anyone who doesn't subscribe to his "puritanical" vision is a moron, I guess. I'm learning quick around here.


The problem is, Kuro, Superman is a concept. It's an idea with a general mythology to it, and that story has grown, regressed, and plain ol' changed over the years. If it hadn't, Superman would've died an earlier and much more permanent death than he did in 1993.


The character doesn't belong to the Shusters anymore, or to you. He belongs to everyone who is a fan, including Snyder. And he's got the means to add the next great flourishes to the character. I, for one, am excited.

 

[El Payaso]

I think if they made the costume like that I would be less miffed... Still miss the trunks, but at least there's something red in that, um... area. it sort of breaks the blue. Y'know?

I hear you. In fact that's why going to the seaside just drives me nuts. So much blue and nothing to break it.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Because any deviation from the traditional design = antisemitic. Though... I believe Snyder is Jewish. So there may be a slight flaw in the calculus.

No. It's because Superman reflected their experiences as jewish immigrants in the USA.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I hear you. In fact that's why going to the seaside just drives me nuts. So much blue and nothing to break it.

Ever seen a truly blue sea?

 

[KyleDW2]

No. It's because Superman reflected their experiences as jewish immigrants in the USA.

And MASH was inspired by the writer's real life experiences. Didn't stop the writers of the TV show from changing everything about it. Didn't stop Kurosawa from thinking its the greatest TV show of all time. So why can he accept writers completely disregarding one creator's original ideas and not the same exact thing for Superman? And remember, in this thread we're just talking about his freaking underpants.

 

[Dr.]

No. It's because Superman reflected their experiences as jewish immigrants in the USA.

Okay. But we’re talking about changes to the costume. What part of red trunks reflects the Jewish experience? (Btw, Shuster moved to Cleveland from Toronto at age 10. So I guess he counts as an immigrant. But Siegel was born in the USA.)

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Okay. But we’re talking about changes to the costume. What part of red trunks reflects the Jewish experience?

Mainly talking about the character, but changes there usually lead to the other and vice versa.

(Btw, Shuster moved to Cleveland from Toronto at age 10. So I guess he counts as an immigrant. But Siegel was born in the USA.)

Technically he wasn't an immigrant, but real life tells us that people are usually treated still as one especially when they don't fit the majority of society. Siegel and Shusters were jews living in a WASP society trying to blend in.

Pre-Crisis Superman: jew. Post-Crisis Superman: White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

And MASH was inspired by the writer's real life experiences. Didn't stop the writers of the TV show from changing everything about it. Didn't stop Kurosawa from thinking its the greatest TV show of all time. So why can he accept writers completely disregarding one creator's original ideas and not the same exact thing for Superman? And remember, in this thread we're just talking about his freaking underpants.

I cannot comment on that since I am not a MASH fan and have only seen about 3 episodes.

 

[Scuba]

Pre-Crisis Superman: jew. Post-Crisis Superman: White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

Is this just another way for saying Superman used to be anti-establishment, but now he's part of it? That I can see, but I'd say that his transformation was a lot slower than one day in 1985. As he became more popular after his late 30's debut, he was hewn to American tastes in the mid 20th Century -- not exactly a bastion of Jewish (or of any minority's) culture. Plainly put, Superman was whitebread back then because the America that loved him was, too. Or at least the part of America that had any say in society was.


Or did you mean the Jewish/Protestant thing literally? Because why would an alien subscribe to any earth religion? And if it's a continuity where he's unaware of his roots, why he wouldn't he be a Methodist (which is a form of Protestantism)? That's what the Kents were.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Is this just another way for saying Superman used to be anti-establishment, but now he's part of it? That I can see, but I'd say that his transformation was a lot slower than one day in 1985. As he became more popular after his late 30's debut, he was hewn to American tastes in the mid 20th Century -- not exactly a bastion of Jewish (or of any minority's) culture. Plainly put, Superman was whitebread back then because the America that loved him was, too. Or at least the part of America that had any say in society was.

As he became popular they played the "stranger in a strangel and" card even more. He was pining for Krypton in the Silver and Bronze Age.



Like the jews until the late 1940s he didn't have an home "country". Yet he was loving his adopted country and planet but he never felt 100% comfortable with it.

Or did you mean the Jewish/Protestant thing literally? Because why would an alien subscribe to any earth religion? And if it's a continuity where he's unaware of his roots, why he wouldn't he be a Methodist (which is a form of Protestantism)? That's what the Kents were.

it's an allegory. And WASP just means mainstream American, at least in the old days. Technically the post-crisis Superman was some sort of pagan worshipping Rao Of course, John Byrne could never get into the "jewish immigrant" aspect (that's why Maggin did better, he's actually of that background) and instead turned Superman into something that reflected HIS own history, basically being a Brit coming to Canada and then the USA. Unlike Siegel and Shuster he became a full-grown WASP pretty easily.

That's what Mr Byrne said about the subject on his own internet board in 2005:

John Byrne:

Being an immigrant myself, I have something of an insight, I think, into the way Clark’s mind works. I was born in England, and I am proud of my English heritage (I was also quite a lot older than Kal-El when I left “home,” so my connections would be stronger) but I grew up in Canada and I have lived for the last 25 years in the US, and I don’t ever—ever—feel like a “displaced Englishman.”

Clark would be proud, too, of his Kryptonian heritage, but later portrayals of him have tried to shoehorn in too much of the pychobabble of adopted children longing for and seeking out their biological parents. Excuse my French, but to me, they fall under the heading of “ungrateful little *****s.”

Clark grew up as human, thinks as a human, reacts as a human. He lives and loves as a human. And that is what really defines him.

He didn't get it, like he didn't get Superman. Being a Brit coming to America is not comparable to coming from a Jewish-Lithuanian background.


The superhero and religion thing is funny. Frank Miller claimed once that Batman is "obviously Catholic", but of course if we assume that his parents were killed in the 1910s and 1920s it would be more unlikely that they were so rich and him coming from a quasi-aristocratic background.

 

[Scuba]

Well put.

I guess I just don't ever see Superman as Jewish in his early days because he didn't suffer like Jews did in the mid-20th century, especially in Europe. Yeah, he lost his entire homeworld, but that was before he could comprehend anything. Outside of that, he never had to physically suffer again. But then, I guess that's the wish-fulfillment part of the Superman fantasy. It's very interesting, you've given me something to consider.

 

[El Payaso]

Ever seen a truly blue sea?

I've seen skies that are truly light blue and again.............. no trunks. Felt like killing myself.

 

[Tyrone Parker]

I can't believe people really miss those silly looking trunks.

 

[C. Lee]

I can't believe people really miss those silly looking trunks.

Why? Does every one on here think exactly like you on everything? Or are there some difference of opinion on some things?

 

[spider_rob]

Why? Does every one on here think exactly like you on everything? Or are there some difference of opinion on some things?

Because trunks outside your pants look silly in this day and age.

 

[Superman 1265]

I can't believe people really miss those silly looking trunks.

People miss the trunks because they made the costume look... complete. I'm one of those people, but I'm not totally upset about it like some members are. And quite frankly, I'm starting to get a little sick of people ridiculing others for their opinions. No one is wrong if they like or dislike something. It's okay to disagree with someone, but it's not the least bit cool if you have to be a jerk about it.

 

[Nevaratoiel]

People miss the trunks because they made the costume look... complete. I'm one of those people, but I'm not totally upset about it like some members are. And quite frankly, I'm starting to get a little sick of people ridiculing others for their opinions. No one is wrong if they like or dislike something. It's okay to disagree with someone, but it's not the least bit cool if you have to be a jerk about it.

Well said; I don't understand the need to belittle and insult people and their opinions. I've seen it happen more than I care to.

And to say it again, I believe the trunks to be an essential part of his looks (among other parts). Sure, I'm not overly stressed about Superman not having them in Man Of Steel, but it just looks wrong to me.