The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 10

[spiderman2]

cool car

 

[DCW]

ZOMGZ TEH VENIM IZ IN TEH SPIDYS EYEZ!!!!!one!!! ,1!!!eleven

First thing I thought too. Oh the memories.

Because I watched the first Raimi Spider-Man movie on Friday, this piece of dialogue is still fresh in my mind:

"You know ... You're taller than you look."

"I hunch."

"Don't."

Love that part. I like how it's kind of mirrored with the "Oh boy, yeah" scene in SM2. Dunst and Maguire are so great in those scenes!

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I can't find the cheese people mention in these movies
Maybe little cheese, but it's definitely delightful

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I just finished rewatching the trilogy last night, and like Leenie said earlier, I still say SM3 isn't bad at all. It has some bad parts, or some of the scenes could have been switched around with others (alternate takes, like Venom's team-up with Sandman for example), but I still love it. All 3 Raimi films to be exact. He definitely nailed Spider-Man and his world, and even at the laziest of points, it's still 10,000 times the work put into the Webb series.

I really miss Raimi

 

[henzINNIT]

I'm really itching to do something, anything to push for a SM3.1 or a release of the deleted scenes. I dug up an email address for Sony's home media support and sent them a message asking about a "definitive" release, and urge everyone to do the same. Maybe enough pestering will reach someone in the company who could consider it *shrugs*

[email protected]

 

[Par Avion]

I just finished rewatching the trilogy last night, and like Leenie said earlier, I still say SM3 isn't bad at all. It has some bad parts, or some of the scenes could have been switched around with others (alternate takes, like Venom's team-up with Sandman for example), but I still love it. All 3 Raimi films to be exact. He definitely nailed Spider-Man and his world, and even at the laziest of points, it's still 10,000 times the work put into the Webb series.

I really miss Raimi

Yes! Wish they'd used this scene rather than the alley way one. Why can't these films get the LOTR treatment? I'd LOVE to see extended cuts, behind the scenes, in depth interviews, etc...

 

[henzINNIT]

Online petitions are normally useless, but should we take a stab at a new one? The only one I could dig up was from 2007

 

[Leenie]

Love that part. I like how it's kind of mirrored with the "Oh boy, yeah" scene in SM2. Dunst and Maguire are so great in those scenes!

There's something so innocent, sweet, and charming with Peter and MJ's relationship/chemistry in the first two Spider-Man movies. It's so easy to root for them as a couple, in my opinion.

I remember during one of the many times I saw Spider-Man 2 in theaters, some guy in the audience literally shouted "Kiss her!!" after the final battle with Doc Ock and when they were on the web. A lot of people in the audience applauded at that guy. Good times.

When it comes to Spider-Man 3, I think the relationship aspect was uneven. There were parts that I really enjoyed, but also parts that I did not. Overall, though, I still can't comprehend why so many people hate MJ in Spider-Man 3. Of all the characters in that movie, she's the one I felt most sorry for. Her character dealt with a lot of crap, and she tried being a supportive girlfriend. I thought she was completely right when she said "This isn't about you; it's about me, it's about my career." I don't see how that's a selfish thing to say? She supports Peter when he's Spider-Man; he needs to do the same for her. That's what a relationship is!

 

[sontin]

I think it was a genius idee to move them forward. Both have a full fleshed character. And giving them problems makes it so much more interessting to watch.

The relationship in SM3 between Peter and MJ is so much better than anything in TASM 2.

 

[Par Avion]

There's something so innocent, sweet, and charming with Peter and MJ's relationship/chemistry in the first two Spider-Man movies. It's so easy to root for them as a couple, in my opinion.

I remember during one of the many times I saw Spider-Man 2 in theaters, some guy in the audience literally shouted "Kiss her!!" after the final battle with Doc Ock and when they were on the web. A lot of people in the audience applauded at that guy. Good times.

When it comes to Spider-Man 3, I think the relationship aspect was uneven. There were parts that I really enjoyed, but also parts that I did not. Overall, though, I still can't comprehend why so many people hate MJ in Spider-Man 3. Of all the characters in that movie, she's the one I felt most sorry for. Her character dealt with a lot of crap, and she tried being a supportive girlfriend. I thought she was completely right when she said "This isn't about you; it's about me, it's about my career." I don't see how that's a selfish thing to day? She supports Peter when he's Spider-Man; he needs to do the same for her. That's what a relationship is!

Now, this may sound harsh-but it's mostly because the vast amount of people posting on these boards are emotionally immature, young men who don't known much about relationships, let alone the opposite sex.

It's the same reason that the comic book/gaming community is so ready to decry female fans as "fake nerd girls". It's a very insular, macho (all posturing of course) community. Just look at all of the "shaming" that goes on concerning how many guys MJ dated. The fanboys often refer to her as a "s*ut" or "wh*ore" That says it all right there.

The Raimi films had their issues (MJ being kidnapped every movie for instance), but the actual character of MJ was a well written, layered, multivalent character (she had goals, dreams, desires, autonomy, etc...that she achieved without/despite the main male character).

 

[Visualiza]

Now, this may sound harsh-but it's mostly because the vast amount of people posting on these boards are emotionally immature, young men who don't known much about relationships, let alone the opposite sex.

It's the same reason that the comic book/gaming community is so ready to decry female fans as "fake nerd girls". It's a very insular, macho (all posturing of course) community. Just look at all of the "shaming" that goes on concerning how many guys MJ dated. The fanboys often refer to her as a "s*ut" or "wh*ore" That says it all right there.

The Raimi films had their issues (MJ being kidnapped every movie for instance), but the actual character of MJ was a well written, layered, multivalent character (she had goals, dreams, desires, autonomy, etc...that she achieved without/despite the main male character).

Very well said. My perspective on MJ is that I was apprehensive about her at first, and that's mainly because as written, she wasn't the sassy, wild bombshell that I remember reading about. Didn't Peter break up with her initially because she partied too hard or something to that effect? That's what I wanted to see, the Yin to Peter's Yang, that kept him on his toes because of her bubbly personality. I'd still love to see a similar interpretation one day (although preferably not under this franchise; that ship sailed when they reduced Peter's time in college to a passing mention), I do, however, think that Dunst did well with what she was given. In a nutshell, I think that this may be where the criticisms from most others stem from; she simply wasn't the idealized image they had in their heads. Maguire's Peter was, so I think that such a disparity may have widened the rift even further.

I've always argued that MJ in the Raimi trilogy was given as much care and development, if not more, as Peter had across the board. She had a history, she had family problems, she had a myriad of different professional aspirations and experiments, as well as being torn among the men in her life. Oodles and oodles of depth; she easily went through as many things throughout the trilogy as the hero. Maybe aside from Lois Lane (and I mean from '78), there hasn't been a love interest that was as fleshed out as she was, bar none. Not Jane Foster, Jean Grey, Pepper Potts, Betty Ross, Rachel Dawes, Peggy Carter; none of them. Mind you, several of those have been excellent love interests in their own right, but they all seemed to play second fiddle to the hero in some way, shape, or form.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble, so I'm done. Just my 2 cents.

 

[henzINNIT]

The core of their relationship was pretty immature though to be honest. They don't communicate at all. It was understandable in the first two films because Peter had to keep secrets. I would have loved to see those guys actually confide in eachother somewhen.

MJ can easily be seen as pretty flimsy in her back-and-forths between men, and I do think the dialogue in SM3 in particular really did a disservice to what was a very relatable relationship issue. She's troubled, but her first spoken lines in the film are pretty much: "tell me how good I was, tell me again, the applause wasn't loud enough".

Raimi was a bit on the nose in a lot of dialogue in that film, and while MJ saying: "This isn't about you; it's about me, it's about my career" isn't an utterly selfish thought, there were far more effective ways to portray those feelings without alienating an audience. It was a ballsy move to centre their drama on Peter's growing ego, but it could have been handled with much more finesse. I know a lot of people find both characters flat-out obnoxious.

It's also a problem that we don't ever really see them happy together for enough time. She's a fantasy to Peter in the first two films, and we get very little time of them as a real couple. There's a moment I love in Iron Man 3: Pepper can see Tony is having issues and confronts him about it. He brushes it off, but as she starts walking away, he immediately flip-flops and tells her his problems. That's just magic right there, a total guy thing to do, and it says a lot about how strong their relationship is.

It's crazy that in the time between SM2 and 3, Peter never even told MJ the truth about him and Harry. Not only is it totally the kind of thing you'd want to tell your partner about, it's downright irresponsible to endanger your girlfriend by allowing her to hang around with someone who may very well try to hurt you both (and shock horror, he does just that)

My solution: Couples' Councelling in SM4, run by Bruce Cambell of course lol

 

[Picard Sisko]

I can't find the cheese people mention in these movies
Maybe little cheese, but it's definitely delightful

Well the cheese is definitely there, but I think it's a smart cheesiness. It had the feel of a comic book from the 60s and that's what I love about it.

 

[Human Torch]

Now, this may sound harsh-but it's mostly because the vast amount of people posting on these boards are emotionally immature, young men who don't known much about relationships, let alone the opposite sex.

It's the same reason that the comic book/gaming community is so ready to decry female fans as "fake nerd girls". It's a very insular, macho (all posturing of course) community. Just look at all of the "shaming" that goes on concerning how many guys MJ dated. The fanboys often refer to her as a "s*ut" or "wh*ore" That says it all right there.

The Raimi films had their issues (MJ being kidnapped every movie for instance), but the actual character of MJ was a well written, layered, multivalent character (she had goals, dreams, desires, autonomy, etc...that she achieved without/despite the main male character).

These guys that want to "shame" MJ for "bed hopping" are probably the same guys that fantasize how Cap has been bedding broads left,right and center despite the films themselves suggesting otherwise.

 

[Picard Sisko]

MJ seemed like a decent character up until Spider-Man 2. I think anyone giving her certain labels that Par Avion mentioned needs to rethink themselves a little bit.

 

[Leenie]

The core of their relationship was pretty immature though to be honest. They don't communicate at all. It was understandable in the first two films because Peter had to keep secrets. I would have loved to see those guys actually confide in eachother somewhen.

MJ can easily be seen as pretty flimsy in her back-and-forths between men, and I do think the dialogue in SM3 in particular really did a disservice to what was a very relatable relationship issue. She's troubled, but her first spoken lines in the film are pretty much: "tell me how good I was, tell me again, the applause wasn't loud enough".

Raimi was a bit on the nose in a lot of dialogue in that film, and while MJ saying: "This isn't about you; it's about me, it's about my career" isn't an utterly selfish thought, there were far more effective ways to portray those feelings without alienating an audience. It was a ballsy move to centre their drama on Peter's growing ego, but it could have been handled with much more finesse. I know a lot of people find both characters flat-out obnoxious.

It's also a problem that we don't ever really see them happy together for enough time. She's a fantasy to Peter in the first two films, and we get very little time of them as a real couple. There's a moment I love in Iron Man 3: Pepper can see Tony is having issues and confronts him about it. He brushes it off, but as she starts walking away, he immediately flip-flops and tells her his problems. That's just magic right there, a total guy thing to do, and it says a lot about how strong their relationship is.

It's crazy that in the time between SM2 and 3, Peter never even told MJ the truth about him and Harry. Not only is it totally the kind of thing you'd want to tell your partner about, it's downright irresponsible to endanger your girlfriend by allowing her to hang around with someone who may very well try to hurt you both (and shock horror, he does just that)

My solution: Couples' Councelling in SM4, run by Bruce Cambell of course lol

This is where some of my criticism towards Spider-Man 3 comes in. I honestly don't think they needed to add that much plot for the relationship (except for Peter pushing her away while he has the black suit). I also don't think the movie needed Peter to develop an ego because everybody loves him now, personally. I would have been perfectly happy with the movie taking its time with showing Peter and MJ being happy before the black suit comes in (and the problems between the two started before the symbiote took over). The whole ego thing, in my opinion, wasn't really needed. All that was needed was for the revenge theme of the film to take over Peter, thus causing a strain on all aspects of his life, including his relationship with MJ. It would have made the situation much sadder and more effective.

Maybe the relationship's plot would have worked a lot better if the movie had been split into two films? An overstuffed screenplay was definitely the biggest issue that Spider-Man 3 had. The movie simply didn't give itself time to show Peter and MJ's relationship blossom after Spider-Man 2.

As for the "This is about me" line, I think that particular line was needed for how Peter was acting. He was turning everything she was saying into about him, and he needed to be brought back down to reality. Just my two cents.

 

[Picard Sisko]

The whole fiasco between MJ and Harry in Spider-Man 3 was incredibly annoying and unnecessary.

 

[Leenie]

The whole fiasco between MJ and Harry in Spider-Man 3 was incredibly annoying and unnecessary.

It made sense for it to happen in context to everything else that happened in the film (like Peter's ego), but yes, I wish the series of events had been handled differently, as I mentioned in my previous post.

And I'm not even complaining about "The Twist" scene in particular; I actually wish a moment like that had happened between MJ and Peter at the beginning of the movie instead (which would have been cute!). The movie needed more moments of Peter and MJ being happy.

 

[Picard Sisko]

I agree. It would have been nice to just see Peter and MJ happy together considering everything that happened in the past 2 films. It would have made the whole symbiote storyline more dramatic IMO.

 

[Leenie]

Totally agreed.

 

[Leenie]

I can't find the cheese people mention in these movies
Maybe little cheese, but it's definitely delightful

I know exactly what you mean.

I wouldn't call the cheese in Sam Raimi's movies "cheese," exactly (in the first two movies, specifically). Cheese tends to have a negative connotation, and I definitely don't view the first two Spider-Man movies in a negative way whatsoever, so ...

I like to call Raimi's brand of cheese in the first two Spider-Man movies "schmaltz," which is a word that many people have used to describe Frank Capra's movies. Frank Capra is one of my all-time favorite directors, so I guess it would make total sense for someone like me to enjoy the tone of Raimi's Spider-Man 1 & 2.

The "cheese" in the first two Spidey movies works for me, because it's presented in a very sentimental, charming, and (as you put it) delightful way, which is why I prefer to call it "schmaltz." Of course, I think it's done really well because the first two Spidey flicks balance out the lighthearted and the heavyhearted scenes extremely well, in my opinion. There's just something that clicks with me whenever I watch Spider-Man 1 & 2.

 

[Visualiza]

I know exactly what you mean.

I wouldn't call the cheese in Sam Raimi's movies "cheese," exactly (in the first two movies, specifically). Cheese tends to have a negative connotation, and I definitely don't view the first two Spider-Man movies in a negative way whatsoever, so ...

I like to call Raimi's brand of cheese in the first two Spider-Man movies "schmaltz," which is a word that many people have used to describe Frank Capra's movies. Frank Capra is one of my all-time favorite directors, so I guess it would make total sense for someone like me to enjoy the tone of Raimi's Spider-Man 1 & 2.

The "cheese" in the first two Spidey movies works for me, because it's presented in a very sentimental, charming, and (as you put it) delightful way, which is why I prefer to call it "schmaltz." Of course, I think it's done really well because the first two Spidey flicks balance out the lighthearted and the heavyhearted scenes extremely well, in my opinion. There's just something that clicks with me whenever I watch Spider-Man 1 & 2.

I like it. That should be the new term of endearment around these parts.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Online petitions are normally useless, but should we take a stab at a new one? The only one I could dig up was from 2007

I emailed Sony a few years ago, and they said they had something special planned for the SM trilogy...turned out they were just ugly bluray covers.

 

[webhead731]

 

[Par Avion]

It made sense for it to happen in context to everything else that happened in the film (like Peter's ego), but yes, I wish the series of events had been handled differently, as I mentioned in my previous post.

And I'm not even complaining about "The Twist" scene in particular; I actually wish a moment like that had happened between MJ and Peter at the beginning of the movie instead (which would have been cute!). The movie needed more moments of Peter and MJ being happy.

That would have been so GREAT! Yes, it is a shame that we never got any little moments like that between Pete and MJ. Even Marc Webb, who captured tons of moments like this in 500 Days of Summer, hasn't really brought anything like this to the Spider-Man series (Gwen and Peter walking and talking about endearing affectations was nice though). I remember reading about a deleted scene in TASM where Gwen and Peter are just hanging out at a restaurant eating cheeseburgers. Wish we could've seen that

I know exactly what you mean.

I wouldn't call the cheese in Sam Raimi's movies "cheese," exactly (in the first two movies, specifically). Cheese tends to have a negative connotation, and I definitely don't view the first two Spider-Man movies in a negative way whatsoever, so ...

I like to call Raimi's brand of cheese in the first two Spider-Man movies "schmaltz," which is a word that many people have used to describe Frank Capra's movies. Frank Capra is one of my all-time favorite directors, so I guess it would make total sense for someone like me to enjoy the tone of Raimi's Spider-Man 1 & 2.

The "cheese" in the first two Spidey movies works for me, because it's presented in a very sentimental, charming, and (as you put it) delightful way, which is why I prefer to call it "schmaltz." Of course, I think it's done really well because the first two Spidey flicks balance out the lighthearted and the heavyhearted scenes extremely well, in my opinion. There's just something that clicks with me whenever I watch Spider-Man 1 & 2.

Exactly. Raimi knew exactly what he was doing when he made these creative choices. To the uninformed, it seems "cheesy" (the buzzword used in every other sentence around here that seems to be used to connote incompetence). It's not an accident that these films are heavy on sentiment and charm. The humour in these films is very self aware (something that flies over most fanboys heads), without being tongue in cheek (a tough line to walk).

Yes, SM1 and 2 just hit all their marks and nail the atmosphere/tone perfectly which leaves the viewer with a satisfying and rewarding film watching experience.