The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - Part 11

[The Joker]

Ant-Man is one I wouldn't say it's better than. Iron Man 2, Hulk, Thor 2, Captain America definitely.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I would probably put SM3 below the entire MCU, but I'd give it the same rating I would give the lesser MCU films, a 6 out of 10. I enjoyed it, but it is heavily flawed. It is comparable to the worst MCU films.

TASM1 & TASM2, I'd also put below the entire MCU.

SM2, on the other hand, I'd put above the entire MCU.

SM1, I'd have fifth in the MCU. It would be below Guardians of the Galaxy, The Winter Soldier, Iron Man, and The Avengers.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I would probably put SM3 below the entire MCU.

You really think it's worse than Ant-Man? They both shared the same problem with straying too much from the comics, but at least SM3 kept the focus on the tentpole character.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Ant-Man was freakin' awesome

 

[Lantern Venom]

Ant-Man was freakin' awesome

It was only decent. For the first time, a lead character was supported more by the MCU framework than adding something new and vital.

For all of my issues with VINO and GINO, Spider-man 3's main story, the relationship between Peter and Harry, was something that didn't need to be strung along by stronger elements.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

You really think it's worse than Ant-Man? They both shared the same problem with straying too much from the comics, but at least SM3 kept the focus on the tentpole character.

Oh definitely. Ant-Man is one of the better MCU films. It wasn't even the worst MCU film this summer. I'll take it over Age of Ultron any day.

Straying from the comics really isn't that big of a deal to me most of the time, especially for a character I don't particularly care about like Ant-Man. I think there are certain basics they need to get right to stay true to the character (ex. Spider-Man is a young man named Peter Parker who was bit by a radioactive spider and learns responsibility through the murder of his Uncle Ben). And I felt that Ant-Man didn't cross that line. Scott Lang is a down on his luck burglar who steals the Ant-Man suit from a genius inventor, while trying to care for his daughter Cassie. That's who Lang is in the comics, and that's who he is in the film as well. I'm not sure what you mean about Ant-Man not keeping the focus on the tentpole character as Lang was pretty clearly the main character in the film.

The real problem with SM3 is that there are spots where the plot gets really messy and the third act seems forced. The Sandman/Venom pairing happens way too quickly and without a solid enough explanation (it is probably a holdover from when Vulture was in the movie, who did have a reason to be paired up with Sandman at the end). The whole butler scene reeks of the plot having run out of time to convincingly get Harry back on the side of good for the finale. The whole amnesia subplot goes nowhere. Spider-Man forgives Sandman for killing Ben (which is good), but he also lets a wanted fugitive go free (which is bad). There are a lot of issues with SM3's script.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I couldn't care less about how comic-accurate Ant Man is. He is a D-List character, and the film made me a fan and excited to see him in future appearances. I don't base a film on how close it is to the source, Jurassic Park is wildly different than the book, the Lost World moreso. I still love those films, I base it on enjoyment.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Oh definitely. Ant-Man is one of the better MCU films. It wasn't even the worst MCU film this summer. I'll take it over Age of Ultron any day.


And I felt that Ant-Man didn't cross that line. Scott Lang is a down on his luck burglar who steals the Ant-Man suit from a genius inventor, while trying to care for his daughter Cassie. That's who Lang is in the comics, and that's who he is in the film as well. I'm not sure what you mean about Ant-Man not keeping the focus on the tentpole character as Lang was pretty clearly the main character in the film.

We'll just have to disagree there. Ant-Man was clearly the weakest MCU film to me. It's the first time that the studio felt like a parody of itself rather than boldly presenting its history.

When I say "tentpole", I mean Hank Pym, not Scott Lang. Michael Douglas, even in a supporting role, was more interesting because he portrayed a character with more history. What happened in the film felt like introducing Peter Parker and his universe just to tell Jessica Drew's story. There's something intrinsically "off" about that.

I couldn't care less about how comic-accurate Ant Man is. He is a D-List character, and the film made me a fan and excited to see him in future appearances. I don't base a film on how close it is to the source, Jurassic Park is wildly different than the book, the Lost World moreso. I still love those films, I base it on enjoyment.

Ant-Man is an original Avenger, and Hank Pym deserved more respect. His role in EMH is proof that a condensed version wouldn't have been that hard to produce.

None of the Ant-Men are among my personal favorites, but they don't have to be for me to understand their place in history of the Avengers and the larger Marvel Universe. For the minimal achievement that the Ant-Man film produced, Marvel could have just introduced Lang and Pym in supporting roles in phase 2, which could have culminated in Pym helping Tony build Ultron. Lang was just an ex-con running gag, which could have been easily dispersed over the Phase 3 films.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Once again, I don't care about accuracy as long as I enjoy the film itself.

 

[AnneFan]

Ant-Man was freakin' awesome

I liked it, but ultimately, I like Spider-Man more. SM3 is a film I'm more likely to rewatch. Not so sure about Ant-Man, to be honest. And I have to say, the issues SM3 has seem quite minor in comparison to other CBMs. But at the time people lost their minds, melted down and as a result we received the reboot. Oh well.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Once again, I don't care about accuracy as long as I enjoy the film itself.

I'm not surprised that we disagree on that concept. If a character's story is being adapted, it means that there is already a successful story in place. A translation doesn't need to be exact, but it need to hit a certain number of beats to be at its best. Ant-Man missed too many major notes.

I liked it, but ultimately, I like Spider-Man more. SM3 is a film I'm more likely to rewatch. Not so sure about Ant-Man, to be honest. And I have to say, the issues SM3 has seem quite minor in comparison to other CBMs. But at the time people lost their minds, melted down and as a result we received the reboot. Oh well.

I'm sure Fantastic Four fans would agree with you.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'd take SM3 over:

Thor 2
IM2
Incredible Hulk
Thor
Captain America: TFA
(Not a movie, but)
Agents of Shield

I will say, none of them are particularly bad, although Thor 2 isn't something I would care to ever watch again either.

I'd take The Incredible Hulk over Spider-Man 3, it's my favorite Marvel movie.
I'd definitely put Spider-Man 3 over everything else on this list.

You really think it's worse than Ant-Man? They both shared the same problem with straying too much from the comics, but at least SM3 kept the focus on the tentpole character.

beside the symbiote effects (taken from the 90s cartoon), Sandman killing Ben, and how Gwen is presented, Spider-Man 3 is very faithful to the comics.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I'd take The Incredible Hulk over Spider-Man 3, it's my favorite Marvel movie.
I'd definitely put Spider-Man 3 over everything else on this list.

beside the symbiote effects (taken from the 90s cartoon), Sandman killing Ben, and how Gwen is presented, Spider-Man 3 is very faithful to the comics.

That's a lot of "besides". We know Raimi had "Eddie" and Blonde Prop #1 forced on him, and I've never read if he originally intended Marko to be the shooter. However, the framework of the original story was solid well-executed for the most part.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

That's a lot of "besides". We know Raimi had "Eddie" and Blonde Prop #1 forced on him, and I've never read if he originally intended Marko to be the shooter. However, the framework of the original story was solid well-executed for the most part.

Those are not as big as you imagine.
Now that I'm watching Daredevil series again, that is taking lots of liberties, did lots of besides.

 

[OcStat]

Spider-Man 3 beats a lot of MCU movies in the action department, for sure. But the list of MCU films it is superior to is not very long, in my opinion. I feel confident that the next movie may place itself at the top, or at least near the top of the Spider-Man franchise. Marvel has plenty of practice under their belts now and they are not going to allow themselves to drop the ball on their flagship character.

I always hold out that the next movie will be the best one, there has always been room for improvement regarding Spider-Man on the silver screen.

 

[Leenie]

Great post.

As someone who obsesses over their work performance, I too get upset when things go wrong. In that regard, I feel for Sam. It sucks that he didn't get to finish the series on a high note nor have the chance to redeem himself. Sam accepted what was being told to him--that he wasn't doing right by the fans and forced or not, made changes to the film and ultimately regretted those decisions. He made two very good Spider-Man movies, one that is still considered the best CBM of all time...one disappointment doesn't change what he did accomplish.

I agree though, I'd love to see Sam back in the game. Feige did say he loved SM2 and is using that film as the barometer for the level of quality that they're shooting for with the new Spider-Man movie. Even if they brought back Sam as a consultant...that'd be stellar.

Just out of plain curiosity and not looking to debate, what films in the MCU are not as good as SM3?

Thank you! And I agree: I fully acknowledge that Spider-Man 3 is far from being a perfect movie, but one disappointing film doesn't overshadow the two great films he did make, in my opinion.

As for which MCU films that I think are not as good as Spider-Man 3 ...

-I think Spider-Man 3 is better than both Thor films, The Incredible Hulk, and Iron Man 2

-I also think that Spider-Man 3 is just as good as Avengers: Age of Ultron and vice-versa. Both movies are good, but they also both suffer from a very dense and crowded script ... But both films also have plenty of things to enjoy.

Keep in mind that I'm not knocking on Spider-Man 3 or any of the MCU films. I've pretty much enjoyed all of the Marvel Studios movies on some level; I just think that there are some movies that are way better than others.

 

[Leenie]

Ant-Man was freakin' awesome

Hear, hear. I loved Ant-Man!

I totally had my doubts (because I was so disappointed about Edgar Wright leaving the film), but I thoroughly enjoyed myself. It's a really fun heist movie, and a good change of pace for the MCU (since everything else in the MCU is so grand in scope). Plus, I find that Edgar Wright's fingerprints were still all over the film, which I appreciated. I love that Marvel still gives him a lot of the credit.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Thank you! And I agree: I fully acknowledge that Spider-Man 3 is far from being a perfect movie, but one disappointing film doesn't overshadow the two great films he did make, in my opinion.

As for which MCU films that I think are not as good as Spider-Man 3 ...

-I think Spider-Man 3 is better than both Thor films, The Incredible Hulk, and Iron Man 2

-I also think that Spider-Man 3 is just as good as Avengers: Age of Ultron and vice-versa. Both movies are good, but they also both suffer from a very dense and crowded script ... But both films also have plenty of things to enjoy.

Keep in mind that I'm not knocking on Spider-Man 3 or any of the MCU films. I've pretty much enjoyed all of the Marvel Studios movies on some level; I just think that there are some movies that are way better than others.

Thanks for the response. I certainly don't think the MCU is flawless like some may because there's definitely different tiers of quality when it comes to their films. No different than any other studio really however the MCU is enjoying significant success at the moment. Hopefully that trend continues.

SM3 while, imo, still a massive disappointment it does have enjoyable moments. Most of that disappointment though comes from the expectation level that was set with the first two Raimi films. SM3 does have its own set of issues for sure but with some minor changes here and there it could have been greatly improved. I think it is at least on par with IM2 and Thor2, maybe even a little better.

 

[Slade W]

I consider all of the Marvel films that I have seen to be better than SM3 (Ant-Man, Age of Ultron and the Hulk movie are the only movies that I haven't seen). I do not consider any of the Marvels films to be bad, I think they are at worst a 6/10. SM3 was a bad movie IMO. When I re-watched the trilogy back in July I had to force myself to keep watching SM3. The humour fell flat, the acting was bad and the characters and storylines were not interesting IMO. The only part that I enjoyed was where Venom and Sandman captured MJ and Peter and Harry fought to save her. That part wasn't enough to save the movie though IMO.

 

[Leenie]

Thanks for the response. I certainly don't think the MCU is flawless like some may because there's definitely different tiers of quality when it comes to their films. No different than any other studio really however the MCU is enjoying significant success at the moment. Hopefully that trend continues.

I agree. Right now, it seems that the MCU can't "fail" at anything at the moment. I also hope that trend continues.

SM3 while, imo, still a massive disappointment it does have enjoyable moments. Most of that disappointment though comes from the expectation level that was set with the first two Raimi films. SM3 does have its own set of issues for sure but with some minor changes here and there it could have been greatly improved. I think it is at least on par with IM2 and Thor2, maybe even a little better.

I've found that over the years, Spider-Man 3 has become a better movie for me. I've never hated the film, but I definitely felt disappointed after seeing it for the first time. As the years have gone by, though, the good stuff in the movie stands out more for me now.

For me, the biggest negative that Spider-Man 3 has going for it is the finale. While some of the action is great, I feel that the movie would have been greatly improved if they had just let Gwen get captured by Venom instead of MJ, and then have MJ be the one to tell Harry about forgiveness (you know, instead of having that dumb butler scene). I know that Bryce Dallas Howard got pregnant at the time of filming, though, so ... Whatcha gonna do? I still stand by my opinion on what would have been better for the film, though.

I also think that adding a few scenes with Black Suit Spidey doing his thing would have been beneficial for the film. That picture revealed with Spidey shoving a criminal through a car window? That looked awesome! Wish I could have seen that in the movie instead of just a picture! I bet if more scenes like that had been in the movie, I don't think the fan vitriol for "Beatnik Peter" would have been nearly as strong (I personally find Beatnik Peter to be funny, but I know that's a very unpopular opinion).

As for the MCU films, the only real "step backwards" for me is Thor: The Dark World. I still find the movie to be really fun (and I can watch Chris Hemsworth and Tom Hiddleston argue all day), but it's a pretty sloppy story with a pretty terrible and boring villain. I also think that some of the actors outside of our main hero and villain were phoning it in (*cough cough* Natalie Portman *cough cough*). I feel like Marvel has their stuff together, because Thor: Ragnarok seems to be very promising!

 

[OcStat]

I would loved more black costume scenes, not at the expense of other scenes but just added in. I also thoroughly believe the movie would be a lot better just by removing the butler scene altogether. Harry showing up at the final battle without seeing any more of him after Peter's plea for help would have been perfect, his friends words finally allowing him to set aside his quest for revenge.

 

[henzINNIT]

I've never read if he originally intended Marko to be the shooter.

He did. That was the plan pre-Venom.


As for MCU films. I like them all but there are several I'd put below SM3:

Incredible Hulk
Iron Man 2
Thor
Thor: The Dark World
Avengers: Age Of Ultron
Ant-Man

 

[Spidey_62]

Real cool print by Raid71 for Spider-Man 2.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

Awesome photo!

Gonna have to have a Raimi Spider-Man marathon in the future.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Real cool print by Raid71 for Spider-Man 2.

That is so brilliant.