The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - Part 11

[Lantern Venom]

Lantern Venom, T.J., gentlemen.

I guess the difference is that Betty Brant was already there, so at least you could think, "mh, yes, there was something flirty going on between them that's finally explored." With Gwen, it was a character put there out of nowhere. I mean, considering that in the comics she was so very important to Peter and that her death scarred him forever reducing her to a mere plot device was cheap and way too easy. Betty wasn't as relevant in the comics, so using her as could have been better. Not saying it would have been for sure but it would have a better use of a previously established character.

And then again, Betty works at the Daily Bugle, so it's natural that she and Eddie Brock would meet, and that "something else" would develop between she and Peter. But it's as T.J. said, she was probably better known to fans.

You hit the nail on the head with the phrase "out of nowhere". There was nothing organic about the relationship. It was a case of "insert random cute girl here so Peter can royally hack off MJ later in the film". I didn't have a problem with that type of character or BDH's acting (what little she actually got to do), I only had a problem with the character being called Gwen Stacy. Gwen's role in Peter's life and the circumstances of her death scarred Peter in a similar way to Uncle Ben's death. She shouldn't have been a random fling.

 

[The Joker]

Disagreed. Betty was the nice girl who worked at the Daily Bugle for years with Peter. They had nothing in common and he only saw her when he visited the Bugle to sell photos. It would be unnatural if Betty suddenly looked like a threat to Peter and MJ's relationship.

Gwen was a better character to look like a threat to their relationship because she is new in Peter's life, she is prettier, she has more in common with Peter with the Science, she sees him outside of class too because he helps her with her studies, and she has status in the city because she is Captain Stacy's daughter so it was natural that a big deal would be made if Spider-Man saved her life. Also with Eddie Brock being an opportunist dating the daughter of the city's Police Captain made more sense. He could use her to get news scoops and photo opportunities if he got in good with her daddy.

Gwen was better for Spider-Man 3 to be used this way than Betty.

There is also a classic rivalry between Gwen and MJ for Peter's attention and affections from Stan Lee's comic books. So that is another reason why Gwen was perfect for this part in Spider-Man 3.

Exactly. And yes I did like that nod to the MJ/Gwen rivalry of the classic days.

He was joking tho

I agree. Listen to the podcast to hear the context of it when it was being said and how it was said. The interviewers say they don't think bad is the right term to describe the movie, then Sam says awful in a joking context, and they all laugh. He was kidding.

 

[Venom75]

So,I caught the original on tv earlier today and I gotta say that Tobey is the perfect Peter Parker. I mean,wow. He captured the character so well. It's always nice to watch these films after you haven't seen them for a while. It makes you really appreciate how good these movies are.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think it is obvious to everyone Raimi wanted SM3 to turn out different. But, I still like the movie!

 

[NewYorkSpider]

So,I caught the original on tv earlier today and I gotta say that Tobey is the perfect Peter Parker. I mean,wow. He captured the character so well. It's always nice to watch these films after you haven't seen them for a while. It makes you really appreciate how good these movies are.

I watched bits and pieces of it last night as well and I agree, Tobey really hit it with Peter Parker. I thought Andrew was a decent PP, but nothing compared to Tobey's.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I'd love to see Spider-Man with Tobey & Co, which obviously will never happen, but it'd be a cool elseworlds tale. Kinda like what's-his-face when he went and did that Punisher one-shot.

 

[Spider2099]

Oh, you mean the short film called "Dirty Laundry." And it was Tom Jane who played the Punisher.

Yeah, I think I would love for that to happen. Tobey is currently 39 years old but they can easily make him look like he's in his early 30s. He was about 26 years old when he played a 17 year old in SM1.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

What I like about SM3 is that it feels like a conclusion, it would have been awful if the franchise ended in a cliffhanger like most Spidey cartoons.

 

[Spider2099]

What I like about SM3 is that it feels like a conclusion, it would have been awful if the franchise ended in a cliffhanger like most Spidey cartoons.

I'd say it was a satisfactory conclusion. It works as the final movie of the franchise, but there was still so much more that I wanted to see:

Peter and MJ finally getting married
Peter telling Aunt May that he's Spider-Man
Dyan Baker's version of the Lizard

And I generally wanted to see Raimi continue his beautiful vision of Spider-Man. It was like a comic book come to life.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Yeah I would have loved the franchise to continue but Im just glad that it didn't end with any cliffhanger that would make the cancellation of SM4 even worse.

 

[Spider2099]

Yeah I would have loved the franchise to continue but Im just glad that it didn't end with any cliffhanger that would make the cancellation of SM4 even worse.

The main arc of this film franchise was basically Harry wanting revenge for his father's death, and that was resolved pretty nicely.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I'd say it was a satisfactory conclusion. It works as the final movie of the franchise, but there was still so much more that I wanted to see:

Peter and MJ finally getting married
Peter telling Aunt May that he's Spider-Man
Dyan Baker's version of the Lizard

And I generally wanted to see Raimi continue his beautiful vision of Spider-Man. It was like a comic book come to life.

Agreed. I think we would have seen some of that in Spider-Man 4. Raimi knew that one would definitely be his last.

 

[Spider2099]

Agreed. I think we would have seen some of that in Spider-Man 4. Raimi knew that one would definitely be his last.

I think he said he wanted to end his franchise in a bang. Spider-Man 4 would have been the film that made up for the third installment's failure, and this would have been his best Spider-Man movie yet. Such a shame that Sony couldn't play ball and just let him make his movie. Sorry Raimi.

 

[Venom75]

After seeing the first one again today it amazed me how many times Mary Jane needed saving. 3 times by my count,and that's just in the first film alone. Now,I LOVE the trilogy,but it's not without flaws and I would rank MJ's constantly needing rescued as one of the trilogy's major flaws.

 

[Spider2099]

After seeing the first one again today it amazed me how many times Mary Jane needed saving. 3 times by my count,and that's just in the first film alone. Now,I LOVE the trilogy,but it's not without flaws and I would rank MJ's constantly needing rescued as one of the trilogy's major flaws.

That didn't really bother me. I only got irked with MJ needing saving in the third film. At that point I said, "Okay... ENOUGH!"

 

[The Joker]

It was originally supposed to be Gwen who gets taken hostage by Venom. Which would have been a refreshing change. I mean there's deleted scenes of Brock going to her house and all.

The problem I personally find isn't that MJ was kidnapped for a third time, it's that it really didn't have any significant repercussions to the development of her relationship with Peter. In the previous two movies it did. In SM-1 it made Peter choose to not be with her because he felt his life as Spidey was too dangerous. In SM-2 it had the biggest consequence of all; MJ found out Peter was Spider-Man, and it led to them finally being together. In SM-3, it really didn't serve any significant purpose. The only real benefit was she got to be there when Harry died. But even that wasn't vital to her character.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Yeah, BDH was found to be preggers, so they needed to change it. I find it more emotionally satisfying to have MJ there anyways.

 

[Spider2099]

It was originally supposed to be Gwen who gets taken hostage by Venom. Which would have been a refreshing change. I mean there's deleted scenes of Brock going to her house and all.

That would have been really cool to see on film. Still wish we would get an extended cut someday, but I won't get my hopes up. At least we have the Spider-Man 3 official novelization.

The problem I personally find isn't that MJ was kidnapped for a third time, it's that it really didn't have any significant repercussions to the development of her relationship with Peter. In the previous two movies it did. In SM-1 it made Peter choose to not be with her because he felt his life as Spidey was too dangerous. In SM-2 it had the biggest consequence of all; MJ found out Peter was Spider-Man, and it led to them finally being together. In SM-3, it really didn't serve any significant purpose. The only real benefit was she got to be there when Harry died. But even that wasn't vital to her character.

That's true. Something significant always came out of MJ being kidnapped in the first two movies. In the third movie, it felt like she was there just to be there and get Spidey to confront Sandman and Venom. If they left the scene in of Brock visiting Gwen's home and all, it would have made sense if they went with Gwen being kidnapped instead of MJ. Oh well. Still enjoy the film though.

 

[The Joker]

One thing I always did think was funny about MJ being kidnapped a third time was that it didn't raise any eyebrows. I mean that last two times a super villain has shown up in NY she ended up being kidnapped by them.

The newscaster shouldn't have said "The hostage is Mary Jane Watson. An actress recently seen in a brief stint on broadway". It should have gone "The hostage is Mary Jane Watson, previously known to have famously been kidnapped by The Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus. Just what is the super villain attraction to this woman?".

 

[Spider2099]

One thing I always did think was funny about MJ being kidnapped a third time was that it didn't raise any eyebrows. I mean that last two times a super villain has shown up in NY she ended up being kidnapped by them.

The newscaster shouldn't have said "The hostage is Mary Jane Watson. An actress recently seen in a brief stint on broadway". It should have gone "The hostage is Mary Jane Watson, previously known to have famously been kidnapped by The Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus. Just what is the super villain attraction to this woman?".

Hehe that's pretty true. You know I never had a problem with Doc Ock kidnapping MJ in the second movie. Even though it was the second time that it had happened, it sort of just made sense. Why wouldn't Doc Ock kidnap Mary Jane to get Spider-Man to come back? The events of that film also took place 2 years after SM1 as well, so it was spaced out pretty well.

I think the issue with SM3 is that so many things happens all at once. For instance:

In one night, Harry turns into New Goblin, Harry fights Peter, Harry gets knocked out, the symbiote lands on earth, and Flint Marko begins his transformation into the Sandman. Also, doesn't SM3 take place only months after SM2?

I think a lot of what happens in SM3 is actually good, but it was just crammed into one movie and nothing had room to breathe. If they split it up into two films it might have been better.

 

[Venom75]

The thing that always annoyed me was that Peter didn't want to be with MJ for fear that her life would be in danger,but her life was in danger the whole trilogy,whether she was dating Peter or not! lol
I loved the idea of Venom kidnapping Gwen instead. It was a nice change of pace and I also love the idea of MJ going to Harry and asking him to help Peter(as seen in deleted scenes). It would've been a lot better and more heartfelt than Harry changing his mind suddenly because of his...butler.

 

[The Joker]

Hehe that's pretty true. You know I never had a problem with Doc Ock kidnapping MJ in the second movie. Even though it was the second time that it had happened, it sort of just made sense. Why wouldn't Doc Ock kidnap Mary Jane to get Spider-Man to come back? The events of that film also took place 2 years after SM1 as well, so it was spaced out pretty well.

Doc Ock's abduction is the best one of the trio because it served the most solid purpose. Both in his motivation to abduct her, and the consequence of it afterward.

I think the issue with SM3 is that so many things happens all at once. For instance:

In one night, Harry turns into New Goblin, Harry fights Peter, Harry gets knocked out, the symbiote lands on earth, and Flint Marko begins his transformation into the Sandman. Also, doesn't SM3 take place only months after SM2?

Exactly. You can tell Raimi was working at break neck speed trying to accommodate all the story baggage he was lumbered with. It was literally a cascade of new plot points (none of them connected to each other - Harry Goblin, Sandman, symbiote). Yes, Spider-Man 3 is supposed to be set months after the 2nd movie.

The thing that always annoyed me was that Peter didn't want to be with MJ for fear that her life would be in danger,but her life was in danger the whole trilogy,whether she was dating Peter or not! lol

Not true. After she's abducted by the Green Goblin because he was Spider-Man and that he cared about her, that's when he decides not to be with her. In Spider-Man 2, after MJ learns who he really is and he still rejects her on the same grounds that his life is too dangerous for her, she makes him see that it's her decision to face the risks with him and he should respect that, and that it's wrong that they should only be half alive and half of themselves when they both clearly want to be together.

That's why they reconcile at the end of 3 even after she was kidnapped again because of her connection to him. This is the life they've chosen to face together because they love each other.

 

[Spider2099]

Doc Ock's abduction is the best one of the trio because it served the most solid purpose. Both in his motivation to abduct her, and the consequence of it afterward.

Good point.

Exactly. You can tell Raimi was working at break neck speed trying to accommodate all the story baggage he was lumbered with. It was literally a cascade of new plot points (none of them connected to each other - Harry Goblin, Sandman, symbiote). Yes, Spider-Man 3 is supposed to be set months after the 2nd movie.

I think all of the plot points would work fine in separate movies. I liked what Sam was doing with Sandman and the story about his daughter (not a fan of the retcon, but whatever). I was super excited to see Harry become Goblin as well, but the only way to fit his story into the movie was to "knock him out" and give him memory loss until Sandman is defeated by Spidey and disappears. I also liked Sam's version of Venom. The only problem with all of these concepts is that they didn't fit into one movie. That's all.

Not true. After she's abducted by the Green Goblin because he was Spider-Man and that he cared about her, that's when he decides not to be with her. In Spider-Man 2, after MJ learns who he really is and he still rejects her on the same grounds that his life is too dangerous for her, she makes him see that it's her decision to face the risks with him and he should respect that, and that it's wrong that they should only be half alive and half of themselves when they both clearly want to be together.

Exactly. At this moment Peter realized he was responsible for MJ getting kidnapped by the Goblin (after he discovered his secret identity at Thanksgiving).

 

[spiderman2]

One thing I always did think was funny about MJ being kidnapped a third time was that it didn't raise any eyebrows. I mean that last two times a super villain has shown up in NY she ended up being kidnapped by them.

The newscaster shouldn't have said "The hostage is Mary Jane Watson. An actress recently seen in a brief stint on broadway". It should have gone "The hostage is Mary Jane Watson, previously known to have famously been kidnapped by The Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus. Just what is the super villain attraction to this woman?".

lol

 

[The Joker]

I think all of the plot points would work fine in separate movies. I liked what Sam was doing with Sandman and the story about his daughter (not a fan of the retcon, but whatever). I was super excited to see Harry become Goblin as well, but the only way to fit his story into the movie was to "knock him out" and give him memory loss until Sandman is defeated by Spidey and disappears. I also liked Sam's version of Venom. The only problem with all of these concepts is that they didn't fit into one movie. That's all.

In Raimi's defense of the Harry amnesia, that is actually a big storyline from the comics. For both Harry and Norman. Losing their memory, and then Peter walking on eggshells around them in fear they'll remember they're the Goblin and he's Spider-Man. So I have no issue with that.

I think Sam's version of Venom is infinitely superior to the comic books. He had a believable motivation to hate Peter, not to mention they had an actual connection before they became enemies.

Exactly. At this moment Peter realized he was responsible for MJ getting kidnapped by the Goblin (after he discovered his secret identity at Thanksgiving).

That's right, which was in the final act of Spider-Man 1. Before this any danger MJ was in (the Thanksgiving parade Goblin attack, the muggers in the alley) were not a result of him or his being Spider-Man which is why he never made any decision to not be with her after these incidents.