The Official Pirates of The Caribbean: World's End Thread!

[DACrowe]

What I was writing earlier was in the first one all thre characters had their arcs (even Norrington did too and Barbossa). While none were particularly deep, they were fu nand ever yscene in the movie was used to expand on the characters and most of all create a fun break-neck speed plot full of action and entertainment.

The second movie was obviously written (or rewritten) so that it could be a trilogy and nothing more. The first 2 hours nothing really happens that is terribly important besides exposition. And besides Will being wipped by his own father nothing really develops that doesn't feel forced (like Elizabeth all of a sudden wanting to **** Jack real bad, just because they can have the love triangel set-up, even though she barely trusted him by the end of the first movie) until the last 20 minutes with the good sowrd fight and cliffhanger.

And those last 20-30 minutes are god and remincent of the first movie. But literally the entire cannibal island for example was completely superfolous and could have been cut out to make the movie at least a managable length for something so light.

I'll put it this way I never got bord or felt like this was wasting time with the first, I did many occasions on the second.

And I think that this (along with much stiffer competition in '07) will contribute to a smaller box office than the second movie had.

 

[Darth Elektra]

AWE will not make as much as DMC.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

I gotta tell you guys, I think what I missed the most on POTC 2 was the fact that there was no Geoffrey Rush's Captain Barbossa save for the end. I kind of have this platonic softspot for Geoffrey Rush and I sorely missed his talents in this movie.

 

[Ultimate Movie-Man]

You've seen the third film? I thought he was in the third film?
"I sorely miss his talents in this film"...I thought he played a major role in the third film?

PSYCHE!

I know you're talking about movie 2 but this is the thread about movie 3.

 

[Darth Elektra]

I gotta tell you guys, I think what I missed the most on POTC 2 was the fact that there was no Geoffrey Rush's Captain Barbossa save for the end. I kind of have this platonic softspot for Geoffrey Rush and I sorely missed his talents in this movie.

i've heard alot of people say that. You guys should be happy with the third film .

 

[Boom]

There's nothing more childish than box office competition between fanboys/girls .

 

[DACrowe]

^^ Very true. I just was more responding to the non-sensical "I hope Pirates squashes Spidey" type stuff. I myself care very little about who wins. Though it does seem premature to call a winner 5 months before hand anyway.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

AWE will not make as much as DMC.

More than likely yes, but that is like telling the Heat they won't win the NBA finals this year

I'm not saying they will, but they are the defending champs and are the champs untill someone else beats them

a billion is a lot though

 

[L0ngsh0t]

I gotta tell you guys, I think what I missed the most on POTC 2 was the fact that there was no Geoffrey Rush's Captain Barbossa save for the end. I kind of have this platonic softspot for Geoffrey Rush and I sorely missed his talents in this movie.

Davy Jones rules, but Barbossa is one of my absolute favorite baddies of all time, probably up there with Vadar, and Michael Meyers, he was the Pirate in the movie, and was brilliant

 

[OverMyHead]

As I've said--transformers will squash both spiderman and pirates. I will bet you a million dollars. t:

 

[Hunter Rider]

I just watched the second movie for the first time since i saw it in the cinema in the summer
I loved it this time (i liked it the first time)a lot of the story is really intricate and the double plays of the characters make it intriguing as all their character arcs are built nicely while the humour and action are fantastic

The Kraken sequences are off the chart and the Sword battles good.
The part where Will goes aboard the remains of the ship that the Kraken had destroyed and fights off some of Davey's men with the flaming sword is stunning and the CGI throughout is some of the best ever

Davey Jones goes down as a classic not only in terms of CGI achievement but also as a wonderfully written and acted villain

 

[Darth Elektra]

As I've said--transformers will squash both spiderman and pirates. I will bet you a million dollars. t:

We shall see .

 

[L0ngsh0t]

What I was writing earlier was in the first one all thre characters had their arcs (even Norrington did too and Barbossa). While none were particularly deep, they were fu nand ever yscene in the movie was used to expand on the characters and most of all create a fun break-neck speed plot full of action and entertainment.

The second movie was obviously written (or rewritten) so that it could be a trilogy and nothing more. The first 2 hours nothing really happens that is terribly important besides exposition. And besides Will being wipped by his own father nothing really develops that doesn't feel forced (like Elizabeth all of a sudden wanting to **** Jack real bad, just because they can have the love triangel set-up, even though she barely trusted him by the end of the first movie) until the last 20 minutes with the good sowrd fight and cliffhanger.

And those last 20-30 minutes are god and remincent of the first movie. But literally the entire cannibal island for example was completely superfolous and could have been cut out to make the movie at least a managable length for something so light.

I'll put it this way I never got bord or felt like this was wasting time with the first, I did many occasions on the second.

And I think that this (along with much stiffer competition in '07) will contribute to a smaller box office than the second movie had.

think of it like a book, the first half is all set ups, I garuntee this...and you can quote me on it...everything that happened in the first hour and a half of DMC(i.e. Davy Jones story, Jacks backstory and continuing tale, Will meeting his father, Norrington being disgraced, Cutler beckett tearing **** up) It will all get paid off in AWE, because that is the climax and conclusion.

I garuntee you like DMC better once AWE comes out, because they are one movie, they aren't two separte movies, they are one movie split in two

secondly, the cannibale island, if you pay close enough attention is to keep the pace of the movie lively while the plot is being set in motion, I don't know about you, but if the movie started out with Cutler Beckett, Elizebeth, and Will talking for 10 minutes, instead of the intersperced cuts for like 20 minutes, it may cut down on the running time, but it would be a lot less entertianing. And even if you think it would be fine, its still a movie that kids can go to, and they would get bored even faster.

I also don't understand why a light fanfare movie can't be an epic ether, Indiana Jones isn't deep by any means, and most would consider that an Adventure epic.

And so what if DMC is left open ended too, is Empire a complete story, with complete character arcs for all its characters? no, you need Jedi, even though it is the lamest of the three, you need it so Empire can work

 

[TheComicbookKid]

^I see what you're getting at with the comparisons but the only flaw is something you won't be able to convince someone else of.

Was the setup for the third good?

If someone feels cheated in the setup then it maybe over. I thought the second Matrix was awful, but I went to see the third because the overall story was still intriguing. The second Matrix was too long, overly CG, and too preachy in some of the dialogue.

The second pirates was too long, and the story was needlessly convoluted to me. I lost interest enough to see it in a packed theater when I have the choice of Shrek, Spidey, FF2, and Transformers to give my money to.

I do hope it's good. I'll catch it on DVD.

 

[Darth Elektra]

^I see what you're getting at with the comparisons but the only flaw is something you won't be able to convince someone else of.

Was the setup for the third good?

Wait till you see the teaser/trailer... you'll change your mind.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

^I see what you're getting at with the comparisons but the only flaw is something you won't be able to convince someone else of.

Was the setup for the third good?

If someone feels cheated in the setup then it maybe over. I thought the second Matrix was awful, but I went to see the third because the overall story was still intriguing. The second Matrix was too long, overly CG, and too preachy in some of the dialogue.

The second pirates was too long, and the story was needlessly convoluted to me. I lost interest enough to see it in a packed theater when I have the choice of Shrek, Spidey, FF2, and Transformers to give my money to.

I do hope it's good. I'll catch it on DVD.

You make an excellent point...who am I trying to convince, the only people who are going to agree with me, already think the movie is as good as I do, and folks like you and DACROWE I simply will not convince you no matter how right I think I am, and it is fine with me, I am doing it more so for sake of argument

but still the question remains, what if AWE wraps it up like ROTJ...could DMC be the sleeper that actually ends up being the most popular amongst fans in the series? I dunno, maybe I am a bit to fanboyish to Pirates (because they do ****ing rule all in my opinion) but I think they are stellar, and DMC was the perfect 2 movie for me

 

[Agentsands77]

think of it like a book, the first half is all set ups, I garuntee this...and you can quote me on it...everything that happened in the first hour and a half of DMC(i.e. Davy Jones story, Jacks backstory and continuing tale, Will meeting his father, Norrington being disgraced, Cutler beckett tearing **** up) It will all get paid off in AWE, because that is the climax and conclusion.

Yeah, that's what people said about MATRIX RELOADED - that everything it set up would have its pay-off in REVOLUTIONS. And guess what? It didn't happen.

DEAD MAN'S CHEST/AT WORLD'S END has some chilling similarities to RELOADED/REVOLUTIONS. For example, at the end of the second film, Neo and Jack both end up in a weird limbo, and the first segment of the third film deals with getting them out.

DEAD MAN'S CHEST was ultimately a pointless movie. So much of the film was entirely extraneous - and a lot of it wasn't even story set-up (the pointless cannibal side quest). At the end of DEAD MAN'S CHEST, absolutely nothing has been resolved. In fact, we feel as if we've watched half a movie - and a very bloated first half at that. It needed better structuring and some serious streamlining.

But that wasn't DEAD MAN'S CHEST's biggest mistake. It's hugest mistake was attempting to take these characters and go darker with them. The characters of Will and Elizabeth aren't deep - they're shallow characters with little personality. The first film covered up that flaw with the constant humor. It was funny, so we could overlook the flaws.

But DEAD MAN'S CHEST wasn't anywhere near as comedic. In fact, it lost a lot of the humor that made the first one so watchable. Instead, they decided to attempt for serious character arcs. As soon as you try and get serious with these characters, though, it falls apart. THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which had great characters with solid emotional attachments, was able to establish interesting and unique character arcs because we cared.

With Will Turner and Elizabeth Swan, they're cardboard cut-outs, and they don't have the sort of audience rappor that Han Solo and Princess Leia did (partially because they're not that well acted). We don't care about Will and his father. We don't care about Elizabeth's torment between the two men. The only worthwhile characters in CURSE OF THE BLACK PEARL were Jack Sparrow and Captain Barbossa.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Yeah, that's what people said about MATRIX RELOADED - that everything it set up would have its pay-off in REVOLUTIONS. And guess what? It didn't happen.

DEAD MAN'S CHEST/AT WORLD'S END has some chilling similarities to RELOADED/REVOLUTIONS. For example, at the end of the second film, Neo and Jack both end up in a weird limbo, and the first segment of the third film deals with getting them out.

DEAD MAN'S CHEST was ultimately a pointless movie. So much of the film was entirely extraneous - and a lot of it wasn't even story set-up (the pointless cannibal side quest). At the end of DEAD MAN'S CHEST, absolutely nothing has been resolved. In fact, we feel as if we've watched half a movie - and a very bloated first half at that. It needed better structuring and some serious streamlining.

But that wasn't DEAD MAN'S CHEST's biggest mistake. It's hugest mistake was attempting to take these characters and go darker with them. The characters of Will and Elizabeth aren't deep - they're shallow characters with little personality. The first film covered up that flaw with the constant humor. It was funny, so we could overlook the flaws.

But DEAD MAN'S CHEST wasn't anywhere near as comedic. In fact, it lost a lot of the humor that made the first one so watchable. Instead, they decided to attempt for serious character arcs. As soon as you try and get serious with these characters, though, it falls apart. THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which had great characters with solid emotional attachments, was able to establish interesting and unique character arcs because we cared.

With Will Turner and Elizabeth Swan, they're cardboard cut-outs, and they don't have the sort of audience rappor that Han Solo and Princess Leia did (partially because they're not that well acted). We don't care about Will and his father. We don't care about Elizabeth's torment between the two men. The only worthwhile characters in CURSE OF THE BLACK PEARL were Jack Sparrow and Captain Barbossa.

The comparison you where going for was Luke, and Will, not Han and Will, it would be Han and Jack, hence the anti-heroness

umm, yeah this is all opinion, which we can sit here and argue opinions all we want and get nowhere

I will say this though, not enough credit is given to Will Turner being interesting...is no one besides me interested in what Tia Dalma was talking about when she says he has a touch of destiny to him? I personally think it is interesting that both movies revolve around Will, and then Tia Dalma says that, and also it is only after Will says he would save Jack, that Dalma suggests going to Worlds End, there is something about Will that hasn't been said yet, and I want to know what that it, and I think that is the definition of interesting. Sure he may not be the galaxies only hope, but they are two totally different movies

that is also the difference between Matrix, and POTC, is Keanu Reeves is the Will of those movies, the movie revolves around him, in Pirates, Jack is the main character, but like I said before, nothing in those movies happens without Will. So they can focus the beginning of the movie on Will and co rescuing Jack, as opposed to Jack just sitting around waiting for them.

And you're totally hatting on Davy Jones to by saying he isn't interesting, Norrington and Beckett I sure as hell am intruiged by, and want to see where they go

and the movie being to Dark? What is like the core rule of a trilogy, or better yet...a Book, or any work of fiction? screen play what have you

1. The first act introduces the characters, and shows them as triumphant, and winners etc.
2. the second act, put those characters in the worst possible situation
3. third act, get the characters out of the worst possible situation, and back on the success side of things

You could probably just read "Trilogies for Idiots" and find that out...of course the second one is going to be darker than the First

Now, you are sure free to not like the movie, there are some people who don't like Star Wars, it happens, DMC is not as universally liked as Curse was, so its not like you are the first of its kind

But what I am saying is based on hope, and what you are saying is based on a totally different movie franchise, that has no relation to POTC. btw the Matrix sequels stories where excellent, I just think they went about them, especially Revolutions the wrong way

 

[Agentsands77]

I will say this though, not enough credit is given to Will Turner being interesting...is no one besides me interested in what Tia Dalma was talking about when she says he has a touch of destiny to him?

I wasn't interested at all. Frankly, I hate his character. I think he's irritating, and I can't stand Orlando Bloom's performance.

And you're totally hatting on Davy Jones to by saying he isn't interesting, Norrington and Beckett I sure as hell am intruiged by, and want to see where they go

I didn't say Davy Jones wasn't interesting. I said CURSE OF THE BLACK PEARL only had two interesting characters in Sparrow and Barbossa. DEAD MAN'S CHEST did have Davy Jones, though the character was very underdeveloped.

and the movie being to Dark? What is like the core rule of a trilogy, or better yet...a Book, or any work of fiction? screen play what have you

But this film series didn't have to be like a three act play. They could have been three independent stories, ala Die Hard. Personally, I would have preferred this approach - three independent adventures that had very little to do with the other besides some consistent characters.

1. The first act introduces the characters, and shows them as triumphant, and winners etc.
2. the second act, put those characters in the worst possible situation
3. third act, get the characters out of the worst possible situation, and back on the success side of things

This series wasn't intended to be a trilogy from the get-go. They weren't setting up further installments - they've been making this up as they go along, and it shows.

But what I am saying is based on hope, and what you are saying is based on a totally different movie franchise, that has no relation to POTC. btw the Matrix sequels stories where excellent, I just think they went about them, especially Revolutions the wrong way

I'm not saying what I say based on other film series. I'm using those film series to point out where and why DEAD MAN'S CHEST doesn't work. Hopefully AT WORLD'S END will be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[BloodyWolverine]

While i would like to see Transformers do well a movie not a sequel. I am pretty sure though no matter who is on top in teh end. Spidy Pirates or Shrek. May is going to be a great movie season. All three of these like the Star Wars movies are garanteed big money. I can acre less who wins B.O wise just as long as they are good.

Now can we please talk about what we figure will happen in Pirates 3. I am tired of discussing B.O and not the story. I am hoping that Barbossa is not killed again. Jack and Barbossa already died. Its Will or Elizabeths turn. Does anyone think as i do that we will learn that Jack wasn't a pirate when Beckett branded him and as like of nobeler blood like Elizabeth and just adapted as a pirate.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

I wasn't interested at all. Frankly, I hate his character. I think he's irritating, and I can't stand Orlando Bloom's performance.

Opinion, you could say you didn't think it was interesting at all, because you didn't, but basically if you thought ether plot where interesting, you thought Will was, cause his character arc has been the plots of both movies.

I didn't say Davy Jones wasn't interesting. I said CURSE OF THE BLACK PEARL only had two interesting characters in Sparrow and Barbossa. DEAD MAN'S CHEST did have Davy Jones, though the character was very underdeveloped.

Again, there is a movie coming out in May that will continue his story...who was Vadar after A New Hope? After three movie we know who he was, but there is the same level of uncertiantiy to him, as DJ

But this film series didn't have to be like a three act play. They could have been three independent stories, ala Die Hard. Personally, I would have preferred this approach - three independent adventures that had very little to do with the other besides some consistent characters.

This series wasn't intended to be a trilogy from the get-go. They weren't setting up further installments - they've been making this up as they go along, and it shows.

well making it up, is the name of the game when it comes to story making...what are all original work? made up stories....In saying that, they aren't making it up as they go along, AWE script had been done awhile before they started shooting DMC, ever since they started working on sequels they knew where they where going, they just needed to get there.

The independent stories would have also worked, but it takes away from the mystique in my opinion, Die Hard 3, and Die Hard 4 the anticipation to watch them is there, but once you realize they are going nowhere with Mclaine, and its just going to be a kick ass action moive...yeah, i'll still see it, but i have no anticiaption for it

What is Beckett going to do with the Chest? How does Norrington play into all this, What is Wills destiney? What has happened to Jack, and how will they get him back? Is Barbossa good or bad? That is what a trilogy, and continuing storylines brings, that seperate adventures cannot

I'm not saying what I say based on other film series. I'm using those film series to point out where and why DEAD MAN'S CHEST doesn't work. Hopefully AT WORLD'S END will be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Ye of no faith, want a cookie?

 

[Agentsands77]

Does anyone think as i do that we will learn that Jack wasn't a pirate when Beckett branded him and as like of nobeler blood like Elizabeth and just adapted as a pirate.

I doubt it. Considering we know his pirate daddy is going to be Keith Richards. But if that detail wasn't revealed, I'd think that revelation was a possibility (even though I'd dread it).

 

[L0ngsh0t]

While i would like to see Transformers do well a movie not a sequel. I am pretty sure though no matter who is on top in teh end. Spidy Pirates or Shrek. May is going to be a great movie season. All three of these like the Star Wars movies are garanteed big money. I can acre less who wins B.O wise just as long as they are good.

Now can we please talk about what we figure will happen in Pirates 3. I am tired of discussing B.O and not the story. I am hoping that Barbossa is not killed again. Jack and Barbossa already died. Its Will or Elizabeths turn. Does anyone think as i do that we will learn that Jack wasn't a pirate when Beckett branded him and as like of nobeler blood like Elizabeth and just adapted as a pirate.

I personally think Jack is a pirate...hence bringing his father Captian grant sparrow into the mix

but i do think there will be some very interesting nuggets released about Jacks past, and that he may not be who he claims he was, and it was only untill Davy Jones raised the Pearl, and Tia Dalma gave him the compass, that he became "Captian" Jack Sparrow

I asked a question earlier that was never answered

In the trailer trascript posted a couple pages back, there is this shot description of Norringtons new ship, with the Kraeken crawling up behind it

does anyone share the thought with me, that It would be badass for Norrington to actually controll the Kraken since he took the heart from Jones...(Who ever has the heart, controlls the sea)

 

[Agentsands77]

Opinion, you could say you didn't think it was interesting at all, because you didn't, but basically if you thought ether plot where interesting, you thought Will was, cause his character arc has been the plots of both movies.

Not necessarily. I think Jack Sparrow is really the story of both movies, not Will Turner.

Again, there is a movie coming out in May that will continue his story...who was Vadar after A New Hope? After three movie we know who he was, but there is the same level of uncertiantiy to him, as DJ

True, but Darth Vader was cool even if we didn't have a second of backstory. Same with Captain Barbossa. Davy Jones? Not so much - he wasn't an interesting character aside from his backstory, and they barely touched on it.

well making it up, is the name of the game when it comes to story making...what are all original work? made up stories....In saying that, they aren't making it up as they go along, AWE script had been done awhile before they started shooting DMC, ever since they started working on sequels they knew where they where going, they just needed to get there.

Pretending the first film is merely the "first act" when they had no intention of doing that beforehand is cheating, IMO.

The independent stories would have also worked, but it takes away from the mystique in my opinion, Die Hard 3, and Die Hard 4 the anticipation to watch them is there, but once you realize they are going nowhere with Mclaine, and its just going to be a kick ass action moive...yeah, i'll still see it, but i have no anticiaption for it

You see, let me explain it this way.

When DIE HARD came out, we only cared about John McClane. We didn't care about the cast of supporting characters and their futures. With DIE HARD 2, all we wanted was John McClane back again doing his shtick in a decent scenario.

Well, when BLACK PEARL came out, all I cared about was Jack Sparrow. I didn't give a damn about Will Turner or Elizabeth Swan. When DEAD MAN'S CHEST came out, I wanted Jack Sparrow back again doing his shtick in a decent scenario, not lots of pretentions about giving the other characters depth and making things "dramatic."

Honestly, my ideal POTC 2 would have only featured Jack Sparrow and his crew returning, with perhaps a cameo appearance from someone else. I didn't want Will or Elizabeth to return. Honestly, this would have been the far more interesting route to take, IMO.

What is Beckett going to do with the Chest? How does Norrington play into all this, What is Wills destiney? What has happened to Jack, and how will they get him back? Is Barbossa good or bad? That is what a trilogy, and continuing storylines brings, that seperate adventures cannot

You see, I don't particularly care about all of that. :::shrugs:::

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Not necessarily. I think Jack Sparrow is really the story of both movies, not Will Turner.


True, but Darth Vader was cool even if we didn't have a second of backstory. Same with Captain Barbossa. Davy Jones? Not so much - he wasn't an interesting character aside from his backstory, and they barely touched on it.


Pretending the first film is merely the "first act" when they had no intention of doing that beforehand is cheating, IMO.


You see, let me explain it this way.

When DIE HARD came out, we only cared about John McClane. We didn't care about the cast of supporting characters and their futures. With DIE HARD 2, all we wanted was John McClane back again doing his shtick in a decent scenario.

Well, when BLACK PEARL came out, all I cared about was Jack Sparrow. I didn't give a damn about Will Turner or Elizabeth Swan. When DEAD MAN'S CHEST came out, I wanted Jack Sparrow back again doing his shtick in a decent scenario, not lots of pretentions about giving the other characters depth and making things "dramatic."

Honestly, my ideal POTC 2 would have only featured Jack Sparrow and his crew returning, with perhaps a cameo appearance from someone else. I didn't want Will or Elizabeth to return. Honestly, this would have been the far more interesting route to take, IMO.


You see, I don't particularly care about all of that. :::shrugs:::

Okay, I am not going to cut this up to make it neat cause there are only a few points here I want to discuss

1. You say they made up that they where going to be made as a trilogy, you are wrong...from the momment they decided to make a sequel they said it would cut down on production costs just to film them at the same time, so they wrote one movie, to be split into two different sections. They actually planned from the momment of inception they where going to do this, they aren't making it up on the fly

2. If you dont care about the list I said there of interesting things, then you just plain don't want to like the movie, cause all that crap is as interesting as movies get

3. Jack Sparrow is the star of POTC sure, but Will was the main character