The Dark Knight The Official Plot holes thread.

[bobguy64]

then people need to quit repeating that theres no plot holes. if you cant explain something thats as integral to the plot as the sonar was, then its a plot hole. if you guys are okay with that plot hole, fine thats your choice, cool. but its a plot hole none the less.

It was explained, and you didn't buy it. That's not a plot hole.







.

 

[jackjack924]

It's not exactly a plot hole, it's more of an issue of suspension of disbelief. It doesn't go against the plot of the story (realism is not a plot, it's style). It's not even a Deus ex machina since the sonar device was established during the Hong Kong scenes and hinted at during the movie.

 

[Silver Souper]

In Marilyn Manson's book, he details being arrested on a 'lewd conduct' charge. He was wearing his stage makeup, which was greasepaint. Water won't remove it. It was the next morning before they gave him floor cleaner to remove his makeup.

The cops would have made Joker wash his face (or wash it for him) given just a bit more time. There's no absolute timeline, but I was under the impression Joker was only in custody a few hours.


.

well it was very rubbed off/smeared in jail so maybe we can *guess* that they cleaned his face and that made some come off but not most. your grease paint point makes sense too. i would've liked a brief scene of them trying to clean his face and only some of it coming off and the police getting frustrated. add a shot of jokers face with the camera under water in the sink and him smiling or laughing under the water. you could throw in a great joke from joker. could add to the whole "how much of his face is makeup" discussion. as a coworker and I were speculating- we still guess that he augments a semi-permawhite face with a white makeup top.

I'm pretty sure they just threw him in there. Also Gordon ordered everyone to "treat him like glass." They didn't want anything to be considered a form of police brutality. And I'm sure it's not just regular face paint that with a splash of water it comes off.

 

[Motown Marvel]

It was explained, and you didn't buy it. That's not a plot hole.

well then, perhaps you can explain to us how it was feasible?

It's not exactly a plot hole, it's more of an issue of suspension of disbelief. It doesn't go against the plot of the story (realism is not a plot, it's style). It's not even a Deus ex machina since the sonar device was established during the Hong Kong scenes and hinted at during the movie.

its a plot hole because the device was integral to the plot. batman had to find the joker. it was the only way he could stop him, to resolve the plot. he was only able to find him with the use of the magic sonar machine.

im cool with suspending my belief, you have to in these films. but that only works to a certain degree.

and it is a deus ex machina. because instead of the protagonist resolving the plot through his own means, this magic machine just appeared to resolve it for him. and yes, it was hinted at. a single cell phone modified to encomplass the technology required to create a 3-d sonar image of an entire skyscraper (thats a suspension of belief that i can buy). but that just tailored the story for the deus ex machina of the magic sonar machine that just appeared with little to no explanation. but semantics of it being a deus ex machina aside, the machine is still impossible and seemed like lazy writing.

 

[abcdefz]

Many grenades have ceramic or carbon fiber casings. The shattering casing causes hot, jagged fragments to be deadly projectiles. The blast can take your head off, but the shrapnel is deadly for a much greater distance.

At last -- a genuine explanation!

 

[Mikelus]

Motown Marvel, you seem to be an obsessive-compulsive, fixating over a freaking plot, get over it, is just fantasy, not supposed to be scientific reality!

Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder most commonly characterized by obsessive, distressing, intrusive thoughts and related compulsions (tasks or "rituals") which attempt to neutralize the obsessions. OCD is distinguished from other types of anxiety, including the routine tension and stress that appear throughout life. The phrase "obsessive-compulsive" has become part of the English lexicon, and is often used in an informal or caricatured manner to describe someone who is meticulous, absorbed in a cause, or otherwise fixated on something or someone.

 

[Anita18]

and it is a deus ex machina. because instead of the protagonist resolving the plot through his own means, this magic machine just appeared to resolve it for him. and yes, it was hinted at. a single cell phone modified to encomplass the technology required to create a 3-d sonar image of an entire skyscraper (thats a suspension of belief that i can buy). but that just tailored the story for the deus ex machina of the magic sonar machine that just appeared with little to no explanation. but semantics of it being a deus ex machina aside, the machine is still impossible and seemed like lazy writing.

Not a deus ex machina, because the machine did not make Joker's cell phone explode while he was talking on it, therefore it didn't resolve anything on its own. It was a tool that Lucius and Batman used, and the technology was mentioned 3 times before it was unveiled - in HK where a single phone was used to image an entire lobby, Reese's mention to Fox, and then Bruce's explanation of a "government telecommunications project" shortly after. If you didn't catch it, you weren't paying attention.

 

[The Battousai]

Not a deus ex machina, because the machine did not make Joker's cell phone explode while he was talking on it, therefore it didn't resolve anything on its own. It was a tool that Lucius and Batman used, and the technology was mentioned 3 times before it was unveiled - in HK where a single phone was used to image an entire lobby, Reese's mention to Fox, and then Bruce's explanation of a "government telecommunications project" shortly after. If you didn't catch it, you weren't paying attention.

Exactly

 

[CaptainClown]

Not a deus ex machina, because the machine did not make Joker's cell phone explode while he was talking on it, therefore it didn't resolve anything on its own. It was a tool that Lucius and Batman used, and the technology was mentioned 3 times before it was unveiled - in HK where a single phone was used to image an entire lobby, Reese's mention to Fox, and then Bruce's explanation of a "government telecommunications project" shortly after. If you didn't catch it, you weren't paying attention.

damn I wanted this one..You win again Anita..

 

[Motown Marvel]

Not a deus ex machina, because the machine did not make Joker's cell phone explode while he was talking on it, therefore it didn't resolve anything on its own. It was a tool that Lucius and Batman used, and the technology was mentioned 3 times before it was unveiled - in HK where a single phone was used to image an entire lobby, Reese's mention to Fox, and then Bruce's explanation of a "government telecommunications project" shortly after. If you didn't catch it, you weren't paying attention.

stating a government project doesnt explain the absolute sheer impossibility of a machine existing. in order for sonar to even work, it requires the emitted waves to bounce back to be recieved by the emitter. in this case a cell phone. problem is, cell phones emit microwaves which dont bounce back, only penetrate. so again, in order for this machine to work, bruce would have had to personally modify every phone in gotham with highly advanced sonar technology.

if you guys want to suspend your belief and buy this impossibility, fine, thats cool. but its an impossible device fabricated by sheer fantasy to service the plot. which, in my opinion, is lazy writing.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Motown Marvel, you seem to be an obsessive-compulsive, fixating over a freaking plot, get over it, is just fantasy, not supposed to be scientific reality!

im no less obsessive than everyone else who are determined to blindfold themselves from the facts. and im so sorry that i fixate over plot. i mean, god forbid i hope a film, who's job is to tell a quality story with plot, delivers to reasonable expectations. and im not saying TDK didnt. it was a good film. but it had its flaws. and im not going to ignore them.

 

[CaptainClown]

stating a government project doesnt explain the absolute sheer impossibility of a machine existing. in order for sonar to even work, it requires the emitted waves to bounce back to be recieved by the emitter. in this case a cell phone. problem is, cell phones emit microwaves which dont bounce back, only penetrate. so again, in order for this machine to work, bruce would have had to personally modify every phone in gotham with highly advanced sonar technology.

if you guys want to suspend your belief and buy this impossibility, fine, thats cool. but its an impossible device fabricated by sheer fantasy to service the plot. which, in my opinion, is lazy writing.

You know what your saying is like breaking down the mechanics of the death star and determining that it would be impossible therefore it should not have been in the movie as it was lazy writing.

 

[Motown Marvel]

You know what your saying is like breaking down the mechanics of the death star and determining that it would be impossible therefore it should not have been in the movie as it was lazy writing.

no. within the world of star wars, the death star is a perfectly acceptable piece of technology. it fits perfectly within the rules of the universe, which allows it to exist without question. batman, and these films in particular, are sci-fi/fantasy stories rooted in the world of reality. sure, not everything in the film is actually possible in reality, but its plausible using real world logic and rules. but in this particular instance, its not even almost plausible. its just straight up impossible.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

stating a government project doesnt explain the absolute sheer impossibility of a machine existing. in order for sonar to even work, it requires the emitted waves to bounce back to be recieved by the emitter. in this case a cell phone. problem is, cell phones emit microwaves which dont bounce back, only penetrate. so again, in order for this machine to work, bruce would have had to personally modify every phone in gotham with highly advanced sonar technology.

if you guys want to suspend your belief and buy this impossibility, fine, thats cool. but its an impossible device fabricated by sheer fantasy to service the plot. which, in my opinion, is lazy writing.

Uhhh....Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know cell phones send and receive Radio signals to cell site base stations fitted with microwave antennas.

If I'm right all cell phone networks in the world use a portion of the Radio frequency spectrum,The "UHF" band, for the transmission and reception of all their signals. The UHF band is also used with TV's,Bluetooth and Wi-Fi transmissions.

Radio Signals do bounce off of objects.But I'm not sure how well they bounce off of them.

 

[The Battousai]

Uhhh....Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know cell phones send and receive Radio signals to cell site base stations fitted with microwave antennas.

If I'm right all cell phone networks in the world use a portion of the Radio frequency spectrum,The "UHF" band, for the transmission and reception of all their signals. The UHF band is also used with TV's,Bluetooth and Wi-Fi transmissions.

Radio Signals do bounce off of objects.But I'm not sure how well they bounce off of them.

Ba-zing

 

[Motown Marvel]

Uhhh....Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know cell phones send and receive Radio signals to cell site base stations fitted with microwave antennas.

If I'm right all cell phone networks in the world use a portion of the Radio frequency spectrum,The "UHF" band, for the transmission and reception of all their signals. The UHF band is also used with TV's,Bluetooth and Wi-Fi transmissions.

Radio Signals do bounce off of objects.But I'm not sure how well they bounce off of them.

they're pretty much on the cusp between being radio waves and microwaves. but the waves cell phones emit arent strong enough to bounce back for sonar purposes.

EDIT: microwaves are a subset of radio waves. cell phones operate on the microwave frequencey of the radio wave spectrum. too weak for sonar.

 

[combusticator]

Uhhh....Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know cell phones send and receive Radio signals to cell site base stations fitted with microwave antennas.

If I'm right all cell phone networks in the world use a portion of the Radio frequency spectrum,The "UHF" band, for the transmission and reception of all their signals. The UHF band is also used with TV's,Bluetooth and Wi-Fi transmissions.

Radio Signals do bounce off of objects.But I'm not sure how well they bounce off of them.

Yes they use Radio Frequencies.

if you guys want to suspend your belief and buy this impossibility, fine, thats cool. but its an impossible device fabricated by sheer fantasy to service the plot. which, in my opinion, is lazy writing.

I don't think it's "lazy writing" within a realm of "hyper-reality" where plausibilities are brought to life.

If you understood the context/themes of its use, and not a simple "lets use this" it represented "too much power" and the morally complex gray area of rather it is OK to use that type of power for the purpose of good, just like the issues we face today against terrorism.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Yes they use Radio Frequencies.

Also, it is not "lazy writing" within a realm of "hyper-reality" where plausibilities are brought to life.

If you understood the context/themes of its use, and not a simple "lets use this" it represented "too much power" and the morally complex gray area of rather it is OK to use that type of power for the purpose of good, just like the issues we face today against terrorism.

i fully understand the intentions and reasoning behind the use of it, thats not being questioned. im just saying, those intentions and reasoning could have been executed in a fashion thats not...uh...impossible.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

they're pretty much on the cusp between being radio waves and microwaves. but the waves cell phones emit arent strong enough to bounce back for sonar purposes.

EDIT: microwaves are a subset of radio waves. cell phones operate on the microwave frequencey of the radio wave spectrum. too weak for sonar.

Again....correct me if I'm wrong but most modern cell phones sold in the last 10 years or so, operates between the frequencies of 900/1800/1900 MHz or 850/1800/1900 MHz or 850/900/1800/1900 MHz .

Shortwave radio operates between the frequencies of 3 MHz and 30 HMz and somehow they manage to bounce signals for up to a good number of miles.

 

[combusticator]

From:
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2008/07/bat_gadgets

3-D Sonar System Real-World Counterparts: Lidar and Sonar
Usually utilizing lasers, a Lidar system measures reflected light to find the range, dimensions and other properties of far-off objects. Sonar, of course, is the technology of bouncing sound waves off faraway objects to get a realistic picture of where those objects are. Combine the two, and you've got the 3-D system Batman uses to hunt his quarry.


From:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2008/07/21/of-hackers-and-batmen/#more-133

The sensor network in The Dark Knight relied making regular cell phones emit and receive precisely timed supersonic signals. This sonar data from each cell phone gets sent to the Batcave, where it is combined to create a detailed, real-time, 3-D picture of the entirety of Gotham City. While the idea that regular cell phones can be hacked to have such capabilities may be pure fantasy, the idea of networking sensors together to create powerful aggregates of data is not, even when those sensors are themselves relatively primitive and distributed haphazardly.

At the HOPE conference, hackers were testing this idea out in practice. Many attendee badges had a low-power radio transmitter circuit built right into the badge. This radio transmitter simply broadcast a serial number over and over. An array of receivers spread out throughout the floors of the Hotel Pennsylvania where the conference was being held picked up the badge’s signal. Each receiver was networked to a central processor. Using data from multiple receivers, the location of the badge could be triangulated. A web site was set up that allowed anyone to see where every badge was at anytime during the conference. Popular talks or vending tables were easily identified as badges clustered around particular locations. New ways to mine the data kept being added on throughout the conference by caffeinated coders, creating rich features from the complex aggregate of simple data.

 

[nickyg641]

The sonar device did confuse me, and it does feel like Batman could have accomplished it some other way. Wouldn't there have to be a cell-phone on in the area for that to actually work?

 

[Motown Marvel]

Again....correct me if I'm wrong but most modern cell phones sold in the last 10 years or so, operates between the frequencies of 900/1800/1900 MHz or 850/1800/1900 MHz or 850/900/1800/1900 MHz .

it's 5am....i'll come back to this later. ha, my mind is done thinking for the night.

From:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2008/07/21/of-hackers-and-batmen/#more-133

The sensor network in The Dark Knight relied making regular cell phones emit and receive precisely timed supersonic signals. This sonar data from each cell phone gets sent to the Batcave, where it is combined to create a detailed, real-time, 3-D picture of the entirety of Gotham City. While the idea that regular cell phones can be hacked to have such capabilities may be pure fantasy, the idea of networking sensors together to create powerful aggregates of data is not, even when those sensors are themselves relatively primitive and distributed haphazardly.

At the HOPE conference, hackers were testing this idea out in practice. Many attendee badges had a low-power radio transmitter circuit built right into the badge. This radio transmitter simply broadcast a serial number over and over. An array of receivers spread out throughout the floors of the Hotel Pennsylvania where the conference was being held picked up the badge’s signal. Each receiver was networked to a central processor. Using data from multiple receivers, the location of the badge could be triangulated. A web site was set up that allowed anyone to see where every badge was at anytime during the conference. Popular talks or vending tables were easily identified as badges clustered around particular locations. New ways to mine the data kept being added on throughout the conference by caffeinated coders, creating rich features from the complex aggregate of simple data.

you might want to pay attention to the bolded text. no doubt cell phones waves can be used for tracking,like this experiment seems to show, i.e. GPS and such. but not sonar. and certianly not a live feed of 3-D sonar imaging.

 

[krisl]

stating a government project doesnt explain the absolute sheer impossibility of a machine existing. in order for sonar to even work, it requires the emitted waves to bounce back to be recieved by the emitter. in this case a cell phone. problem is, cell phones emit microwaves which dont bounce back, only penetrate. so again, in order for this machine to work, bruce would have had to personally modify every phone in gotham with highly advanced sonar technology.

if you guys want to suspend your belief and buy this impossibility, fine, thats cool. but its an impossible device fabricated by sheer fantasy to service the plot. which, in my opinion, is lazy writing.

It was pretty silly considering the importance of realism in this series. A lot of the critcism levelled at BB was at the over the top finale with the microwave thingy, seems odd they would go down the incredible technological route again.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The sonar device did confuse me, and it does feel like Batman could have accomplished it some other way. Wouldn't there have to be a cell-phone on in the area for that to actually work?

I believe so.

But I guess its also possible that most and mobile communication device would also be capable of working with the Sonar thing.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

it's 5am....i'll come back to this later. ha, my mind is done thinking for the night.

You dont have to...

I wasnt trying to put it up for debate.

you might want to pay attention to the bolded text. no doubt cell phones waves can be used for tracking,like this experiment seems to show, i.e. GPS and such. but not sonar. and certianly not a live feed of 3-D sonar imaging.

You might want to read it more closely.

The only thing that means is that "Hacking" every cell phone in the city is not possible......not that the sonar trick itself wouldnt work.