Apocalypse The Official Sophie Turner/Jean Grey Thread - Part 2

[iacobusleo]

I don't feel they erased it, it is part of them. It can really be felt when Xavier meet is future self or when he call for Jean's help and set her free. But this way they have of connected all those elements (wich we have already discuss above). It really feel like a whole. It makes it stronger, it is like they say "i did not forget you, you are still part of me, we can be together in a new way". Those films are family

Continuing the idea that X:A serves as a resolution of X3, notice how the Mansion is rebuilt by Magneto and Jean specifically, the two antagonists of X3.

This franchise is really all about Charles, his failures and his redemption. He learns his lesson about the abuse of control with first Mystique, Jean and now Moira.

In the original timeline, his mistakes led to a dark future.

FC: His patronizing attitude drives Mystique into Magneto's arms and he failed to convince Magneto to give up vengeance.

X1: The result of his mistakes in FC, with a Brotherhood led by Magneto and Mystique.

X2: Failure or unwillingness to cure Jason Stryker led to William Stryker's genocidal plan.

X3: Suppressing Jean's powers resulted in Phoenix, leading to death and devastation of Alcatraz Island which presumably fast tracked the Sentinels.

In the new timeline, him acknowledging Mystique's agency led to the redemption of the antagonists of the OT, who also happen to be Xavier's closest loved ones: Magneto (his best friend), Mystique (his sister), Phoenix (his daughter figure).

I think it's brilliant. And my girl Jean plays a huge part in this.

 

[ApophènX]

That's totally it! In XMA they even draw parallel beetwen Charles and Erik's family.

Erik told everything to his wife where Charles stole her memory.

We see Jean shooting an arrow when Scott destroy Charles tree who was is "oldest memory", then in Jean's room above her bed there is a picture of z forest burning and paper birds hanging at the ceilling.

Next scene is in the wood, Erik's daughter summon birds and is taken away by an arrow.

To me Moira and Jean are Charles's wife and daughter. Moira discover Apocalypse, Jean destroy him, both with sun/fire.

And that make Jean and Erik building back the house really powerfull, plus the movie is about balancing woman and man and fining harmony, young and old.

Think it is brilliant too and really make it a "whole" experience, all those parallels and interconnection really create a great emotional depth.

I didn't notice the antagonist X3 thanks!

 

[Guard82]

After seeing the movie a second time, I can definitely say this: Sophie Turner's Jean Grey is one of the biggest reasons that I'm excited to see the new younger cast in future X-Men films. She was fantastic.

 

[Paradox1]

How many times did you nerdgasm? For me, it was...countless multiple times for Jean and Psylocke...lols okay and Magneto. ... Especially during the climax...lols

The first came during the opening sequence in ancient Egypt, Storm stealing scene(made me imagine she was working for the shadow king), anything Quicksilver, Psylocke vs beast, Jean going full Phoniex, Prof X vs Apocalpyse in the astral plane,and the danger room. So that is seven times, yeah I really liked this movie.

 

[jaymes_e06]

^Same! Exact effing same!

 

[Batsfan1]

Continuing the idea that X:A serves as a resolution of X3, notice how the Mansion is rebuilt by Magneto and Jean specifically, the two antagonists of X3.

This franchise is really all about Charles, his failures and his redemption. He learns his lesson about the abuse of control with first Mystique, Jean and now Moira.

In the original timeline, his mistakes led to a dark future.

FC: His patronizing attitude drives Mystique into Magneto's arms and he failed to convince Magneto to give up vengeance.

X1: The result of his mistakes in FC, with a Brotherhood led by Magneto and Mystique.

No way. Magneto's homicidal choices, along with Mystique's are not Charles' fault. They made choices to be murderers. He didn't mess with their head or alter their personality. Raven failed herself and chose to go off with a genocidal maniac and commit to his ways. No matter how disconnected he was, Erik and Raven's actions are their own and aren't connected to his failures. As a matter of a fact, it was Charles telling Raven to go do what she wanted that led to her dark path.

X2: Failure or unwillingness to cure Jason Stryker led to William Stryker's genocidal plan.

What? It's not Xavier's job or within his real capabilities to cure a mutant because their dad asks him to. Stryker's vendetta isn't his fault.

X3: Suppressing Jean's powers resulted in Phoenix, leading to death and devastation of Alcatraz Island which presumably fast tracked the Sentinels.

In the new timeline, him acknowledging Mystique's agency led to the redemption of the antagonists of the OT, who also happen to be Xavier's closest loved ones: Magneto (his best friend), Mystique (his sister), Phoenix (his daughter figure).

I think it's brilliant. And my girl Jean plays a huge part in this.

Magneto had no redemption. His actions in XM: A prove that. If he can do what he did based on losing his loved ones, he's still a loaded weapon that needs to be locked up. The fact that Charles had to allow Mystique to have agency to get her to not become a genocidal maniac proves how much of Raven's actions are based on her choices. If she had to be convinced to not be a murderer, then she'd made her choice. With Jean, yes. That's Charles' mistake. But the genocidal tendencies of Raven, Erik and Stryker are their own and not Charles' fault. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[ApophènX]

Charles is a telepath and a very empathic person i think he would admit that he, relativily, is responsible for a lot of things. Magneto is chained by is experience, his past trauma, and so is Stryker. It is what made them. They are slaved to their memories and their pain. Charles also repeat some mistakes and they can have grave consequences, he is responsible for many death just like Erik

There is no point slicing the good guys and the bad guys in two well disticnt category. They interact in such subtle and complex manners it wouldn't be accurate. Charles and Erik are two face of the same coin. And it is the same with all the bad guys. One does not go without the others. Stryker represent a darker side of Charles, as is Apocalypse. XMA end with Charles redemption and accepting and integrating Apocalypse, his dark side. He will repeat his words. He needed to change and accept, just like Magneto.

Magneto told everything to his wife and did not try to control her. That is Charles mistakes. But because Moira is looking for the repress memory a earthcake happen and Erik lost his family, wich was totally unfair and Charles fault.

Coming from there we could say FC was Erik accepting his dark side and becoming really Magneot where XMA is Charles accepting is and becoming Professor X. Magneto become hismelf by killing and his chain to memory, he repeat the ritual with the coin to show it. Charles is creating a new way, he communicate with his future self and will learn not to repeat his mistakes of the past and ... Future too.

 

[Mars123]

That's totally it! In XMA they even draw parallel beetwen Charles and Erik's family.

Erik told everything to his wife where Charles stole her memory.

We see Jean shooting an arrow when Scott destroy Charles tree who was is "oldest memory", then in Jean's room above her bed there is a picture of z forest burning and paper birds hanging at the ceilling.

Next scene is in the wood, Erik's daughter summon birds and is taken away by an arrow.

To me Moira and Jean are Charles's wife and daughter. Moira discover Apocalypse, Jean destroy him, both with sun/fire.

And that make Jean and Erik building back the house really powerfull, plus the movie is about balancing woman and man and fining harmony, young and old.

Think it is brilliant too and really make it a "whole" experience, all those parallels and interconnection really create a great emotional depth.

I didn't notice the antagonist X3 thanks!

Love this summary. It definitely appears we have a solution focused professor x. Both have been played very well.

I want to see more of sophie turners phoenix also

 

[Batsfan1]

Charles is a telepath and a very empathic person i think he would admit that he, relativily, is responsible for a lot of things. Magneto is chained by is experience, his past trauma, and so is Stryker. It is what made them. They are slaved to their memories and their pain. Charles also repeat some mistakes and they can have grave consequences, he is responsible for many death just like Erik

Charles is responsible for the Phoenix and nothing else. That's his only real direct mistake. Everything else is just silly finger pointing at Charles because he couldn't stop people from doing bad things. That's completely unreasonable. Charles isn't responsible for the actions of his bratty sister or genocidal friend or maniacal parent just because he was over protective or unable to convince them that they were doing the wrong thing, which anyone who wasn't sociopath should be able to figure out on their own, or didn't or couldn't cure someone's son.

There is no point slicing the good guys and the bad guys in two well disticnt category. They interact in such subtle and complex manners it wouldn't be accurate. Charles and Erik are two face of the same coin. And it is the same with all the bad guys. One does not go without the others. Stryker represent a darker side of Charles, as is Apocalypse. XMA end with Charles redemption and accepting and integrating Apocalypse, his dark side. He will repeat his words. He needed to change and accept, just like Magneto.

It's fully accurate. Good and bad intentions and actions define our entire world.

Magneto told everything to his wife and did not try to control her. That is Charles mistakes. But because Moira is looking for the repress memory a earthcake happen and Erik lost his family, wich was totally unfair and Charles fault.

That's fully irrelevant. Erik makes a choice. He's responsible for that choice. No one else. Maybe by some causal theory Charles' actions have brought about this result. But Erik has free will and what he does in reaction to is his fault. Even then the reason Erik is wanted in the first place is because dropped a football stadium on the white house and made a declaration of war on live television. The police coming after him are his chickens coming home to roost for his actions. If anyone brought this situation into play, it was Erik.

Coming from there we could say FC was Erik accepting his dark side and becoming really Magneot where XMA is Charles accepting is and becoming Professor X. Magneto become hismelf by killing and his chain to memory, he repeat the ritual with the coin to show it. Charles is creating a new way, he communicate with his future self and will learn not to repeat his mistakes of the past and ... Future too.

Accepting that you've made mistakes doesn't make you responsible for the choices and actions of other people. The only people responsible for the choices of Erik, Raven and Stryker are Erik, Raven and Stryker. I'm very sorry for my intensity. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[ApophènX]

I already summed it up, they all are part of a whole and them interactions are so intricate one would not exist without the other. They are no good or bad guys, is Magneto a sociopath, did he really had a choice? Your choice, your intepretation.

Good actions and bad actions shapping our world ha, the world is so complex i don't know what my action will bring in the futur. We only see our perceptions of it all. Wich is very little and i would be pretentious to think i know what is good and what is wrong.

Charles and Erik being the same is a path of compassion, compassion come from the holystic perception, you see things are connected and if you love have to love the other, the light and the dark. Isn't that love, no separation?

I think both our interpretation are right, because they are ours and we are different.

I think Charles is a telepath and like Jean says he can hear all the voice all the suffering, he is connected to all. Magneto has an helmet he failed to have that connection, just like Apocalypse, i would rather be taken by a great deal of pity for those poor souls who come looking for trouvle for they are in trouble. And i believe it is why Charles desperatly want to help.

 

[Batsfan1]

I'm sorry, but no. Everyone makes a choice. Their choices are their own. No one else. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[ApophènX]

Everybody makes choice but why do you lake these choice, where do they come from? Your life experience. Who you are is what you lived, you are a composition of something that is totally out of your control. Most of your personnality come from your parents and you societal environnement, did you choose these?

When you make a choice you choose beetwen certain possibilities that come to your mind and maybe another person in the same situations would have had different thought process and make a different choice.

 

[Donner]

I'm sorry, but no. Everyone makes a choice. Their choices are their own. No one else. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

People don't make choices in a bubble. Their environment and social circles play a huge part.

 

[iacobusleo]

No way. Magneto's homicidal choices, along with Mystique's are not Charles' fault. They made choices to be murderers. He didn't mess with their head or alter their personality. Raven failed herself and chose to go off with a genocidal maniac and commit to his ways. No matter how disconnected he was, Erik and Raven's actions are their own and aren't connected to his failures. As a matter of a fact, it was Charles telling Raven to go do what she wanted that led to her dark path.

I'm hesitant to go too much into this otherwise we will derail the thread, but it is of course ridiculous to assign blame to Xavier for everything that went wrong in the original timeline. The difference between us is that when I say the OT is about Xavier's failures, you automatically think I'm assigning blame to Xavier. But that's not my intention. Xavier merely handled things in a less than ideal way (specifically as someone who is in the role of teacher/mentor/older brother) which unfortunately got compounded by the bad choices of others and a combination of different events. And since Xavier is the protagonist, he just so happens to be the center of it all, making the X-movies less random than they would appear.

Indeed, whatever we may think, it seems that Xavier himself thinks that he is a failure where Jason Stryker is concerned. Magneto suggested that him taking in Wolverine was a way of making up for his failure with Jason, and Xavier did not correct him.

People don't make choices in a bubble. Their environment and social circles play a huge part.

Exactly this.

 

[Batsfan1]

People don't make choices in a bubble. Their environment and social circles play a huge part.

Everybody makes choice but why do you lake these choice, where do they come from? Your life experience. Who you are is what you lived, you are a composition of something that is totally out of your control. Most of your personnality come from your parents and you societal environnement, did you choose these?

When you make a choice you choose beetwen certain possibilities that come to your mind and maybe another person in the same situations would have had different thought process and make a different choice.

That doesn't change anything. No one is responsible for the choices of others unless they forced them to do it. Charles forced no one here. But yes, I've chosen every action I've made and I'm responsible for them. Not my parents. Any other thought process is shirking responsibility and falsely assuming that I'm not to blame for my bad actions. I know right from wrong. If I choose wrong I'm the only person who made that choice and the only person responsible it. Same with everyone else. We all choose our reactions. Have a very great day both of you and everyone!

God bless you both! God bless everyone!

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Wow......I am away for a bit and come back to find this thread is still in deep lengthy discussions...hard to keep up. Lol.

 

[henzINNIT]

Hardly. Kitty outthinks Juggernaut and saves the boy. Storm is the head of the school at the end. Rogue exercises her free will and what she wants to do with her life. The only disadvantaged in that regard is Mystique and Jean. Cyclops and Charles are killed by Jean. That plays a pretty equal stance. The movie even goes out of it's way to say that Charles was wrong for messing with Jean's mind. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Kitty was fine in her small role for the most part. Could have done without another love triangle.

Rogue taking the cure was implied to be "over a boy", which sucks. It's more troubling when being a mutant in this universe is often used a metaphor for being an outcast minority. She did very little in the film and this creative decision killed her progress toward the strong, confident woman Rogue should be.

Storm is awful. She's a leader in name only. Halle Berry got more screen time but no content, playing second fiddle to Wolverine in battle and having no character development whatsoever.

Mystique makes a massive sacrifice for her cause only to be cured and discarded by her allies. She then ditches her life's mission in order to get revenge like a jilted lover (she's even described as such).

Jean's story is the worst and has really ugly connotations. She can't handle her own power. It is established that Jean had to be tampered with in order to be safe, and once her male mentor lost control of her, she was helplessly destructive. She has no agency at all, is used by an evil man for his own selfish goals and is eventually put down by another man who agrees to kill her before any more harm is caused. Wonderful.


Jean is portrayed much better in Apocalypse, though I'll admit I'm not hugely fond of Sophie Turner's portrayal. She was okay, the worst of the newbs though in my opinion.

 

[ApophènX]

Rogue taking the cure was implied to be "over a boy", which sucks. It's more troubling when being a mutant in this universe is often used a metaphor for being an outcast minority. She did very little in the film and this creative decision killed her progress toward the strong, confident woman Rogue should be.

Mystique makes a massive sacrifice for her cause only to be cured and discarded by her allies.

Jean's story is the worst and has really ugly connotations. She can't handle her own power. It is established that Jean had to be tampered with in order to be safe, and once her male mentor lost control of her, she was helplessly destructive. She has no agency at all, is used by an evil man for his own selfish goals and is eventually put down by another man who agrees to kill her before any more harm is caused. Wonderful.

Rogue accepting to give away her power was to show coexistance beetwen mutant and human i think. Her personnage evolves in parallels of Jean or Angel. Angel represent Jean spirit, a bird, they are both shown at the beggening of the film (discovery of their powers and the mutilation/horror aspect of the OT). And right after Prof X want to restore mental barriers in the mansion Angel refuse the cure,fly away and then Jean escape.

At the end we see Angel flying other a broken bridge. And a scene before, or after, Rogue was holding hand with Billy, it felt like nice poetry. A relation that is both broken and in construction and the bird flying...

Getting back to Rogue and Jean. Jean felt really like a bipolar and it went along the cure option. Logan and Jean was an impossible relationship. Rogue is tring to make hers work out and end up doing what Jean couldn't do, be cured. logzn stays alone...

I am very happy XMA dealt with the male using woman stuff and the "cure" approach to special gifts (enhance them is a better path, more confident, less afraid). I repember Billy saying something like "you should have stayed in school" and i didn't like it because all the guy that looked different in the movie, tatoo, dreadlocks and other stuff, were the "hippie-punk..." Gathering with Magneto who act like an ******* with womans and his people. I really rejected that because Xmen supposed to be about minority and it really felt not like it here.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I was over at another site and someone said how Jean Grey is...yet another Mary Sue. Seriously? Enough is enough! First Rey! even though Rogue One isn't out yet, but the main female lead is also being targeted as a Mary Sue and now! Jean Grey! What the - AHHH!

*extends claws ala Wolverine* Come on Bub, I ain't no time for this s*** fest. Cut the crap!

 

[Frankeh]

Rogue accepting to give away her power was to show coexistance beetwen mutant and human i think. Her personnage evolves in parallels of Jean or Angel. Angel represent Jean spirit, a bird, they are both shown at the beggening of the film (discovery of their powers and the mutilation/horror aspect of the OT). And right after Prof X want to restore mental barriers in the mansion Angel refuse the cure,fly away and then Jean escape.

At the end we see Angel flying other a broken bridge. And a scene before, or after, Rogue was holding hand with Billy, it felt like nice poetry. A relation that is both broken and in construction and the bird flying...

OMG, no offense, but you read symbolism that isn't there, having a justification for everything. Reminds me of BvS boards...

 

[Batsfan1]

Kitty was fine in her small role for the most part. Could have done without another love triangle.

I think we could have done without those before this.

Rogue taking the cure was implied to be "over a boy", which sucks. It's more troubling when being a mutant in this universe is often used a metaphor for being an outcast minority. She did very little in the film and this creative decision killed her progress toward the strong, confident woman Rogue should be.

It wasn't implied to be over that at all. Her last words are literally, "It's what I wanted." in response to Bobby's, "This isn't what I wanted." There's nothing not strong or confident about giving up powers that keep you from living any kind of life. But that was done because Anna Paquin couldn't be in the movie more and the writers thought that Rogue abandoning the team without taking the cure made her look bad.

Storm is awful. She's a leader in name only. Halle Berry got more screen time but no content, playing second fiddle to Wolverine in battle and having no character development whatsoever.

I like Storm fine. But I would call that more a Wolverine being pimped out more, than a woman issue.

Mystique makes a massive sacrifice for her cause only to be cured and discarded by her allies. She then ditches her life's mission in order to get revenge like a jilted lover (she's even described as such).

Actually, the plan was that she faked her turn. They just couldn't Rebecca Romign back for the end of the movie scene where they showed her with Erik to show that.

Jean's story is the worst and has really ugly connotations. She can't handle her own power. It is established that Jean had to be tampered with in order to be safe, and once her male mentor lost control of her, she was helplessly destructive. She has no agency at all, is used by an evil man for his own selfish goals and is eventually put down by another man who agrees to kill her before any more harm is caused. Wonderful.

Again no. She was very much portrayed to be someone who had had her mind messed with by Xavier because he thought she couldn't handle. Logan straight blames Xavier for Jean's condition. The clear statement is that Charles was wrong. This isn't because Jean can't control her power. It's because a man tried to control her power and it created a monster. It's not because of Jean's lack of control, but the fact that control was taken away from her. Jean is the one who asks to be killed either way. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Paradox1]

I was over at another site and someone said how Jean Grey is...yet another Mary Sue. Seriously? Enough is enough! First Rey! even though Rogue One isn't out yet, but the main female lead is also being targeted as a Mary Sue and now! Jean Grey! What the - AHHH!
J
*extends claws ala Wolverine* Come on Bub, I ain't no time for this s*** fest. Cut the crap!

Jean nah, everything she did was well within her power set. If people are unaware of just how powerful she is or the Phoenix. I can see how they came to that conclusion. They just need to watch the Phoenix Saga of the 90's cartoon which is a big inspiration for Bryan Singer.

 

[ApophènX]

OMG, no offense, but you read symbolism that isn't there, having a justification for everything. Reminds me of BvS boards...

This is pretty basic story telling technique. To fit into a theme you take what is alike, make the whole coherent. The creative process is all about assembling things are alike, morphin them together.

Like in X2 Nightcrawler was a good choices because he has: scarification and believe in god, father figure. The bad guy is Stryker: a father who experiment and mutilate his son.

Jean meet Charles, who wants to "help", take this in control. The cure boy represent Charles desire to help her, in a radical way. On the other hand you have a father who wants to cure his son of his mutant gene.(looks familiar). And on all the mutant they took one with white wings, because birds means nothing. Magneto said Charles always wanted to build bridges, human-mutant....

When i see a movie i try to keep in mind that they past more time doing it than me watching it. And surrely have a vetter understanding on how to built a story since they may have watch way more than i have.

But it's all subjective. And maybe you are they just make the bird fly above the broken bridge for nothing because who cares the guy just died and they try to celbrate his ideals and stuff.. But don't say it's not there, it is and it is not. Depends on you.

 

[BeholdMe]

Does anyone know if archery was just her hobby, I figured it would've been explained more in the movie or it was a way to help her control her powers but I could be wrong.

 

[Mad Ones]

I feel like that's in the cutting room floor too.