The Dark Knight The Official "The Dark Knight Is Overrated" Thread.

[Ryan]

The reveal by Bane at the end was far less impactful than it would have been in a healthy Gotham. People may have been disappointed or upset, but it hardly matters when you're living in a feudal state with the threat of a nuke over your head.
Bane and Talia were always coming, I agree. The whole motivation for the attack was revenge for Ra's, after all.
I never thought Batman and Gordon working together would have prevented that.
It likely would have continually drawn smaller threats, but that would have kept them at the top of their game.
My thoughts were that without the lie, maybe Gordon and Bruce were not as complacent, out of practice or sidelined as they were at the start.
Bruce would have been in fighting shape and probably beaten Bane, as he did at the end after recovering from his "breaking" and getting back to fighting fit.
The police would be working with him instead of against him ("He's drawing the cops off Bane") when he first reappeared.
If they had kept their eye on the ball and remained active and vigilant, they would not have stopped Talia and Bane from arriving, but Bruce should have noticed and likely prevented the mass constructions with explosive concrete leading to a direct confrontation with a lot less damage and loss of life.

Lot of great points and thanks for this conversation. I guess the let down for me was the whole 'lie'. In my mind I had figured that the tdk ending was a setup for tdkr. That the whole lie was going to be this huge deal when it would be exposed in tdkr, when in fact, it turned out to be a non event when it was exposed.
Here's a question for you. Bane's motivation. Other than helping out his love interest talia, was there any other real reason for his attack on gotham and batman.

 

[AndrewOz]

Lot of great points and thanks for this conversation. I guess the let down for me was the whole 'lie'. In my mind I had figured that the tdk ending was a setup for tdkr. That the whole lie was going to be this huge deal when it would be exposed in tdkr, when in fact, it turned out to be a non event when it was exposed.
Here's a question for you. Bane's motivation. Other than helping out his love interest talia, was there any other real reason for his attack on gotham and batman.

....No.
That was a massive problem for me with this movie. Bane was created to be the ultimate Batman villain in many ways.
A self-made physical marvel, a brutal combatant, a genius level intellect and given a physical edge with Venom.
He wasn't evil per se, but in contrast to Batman's strict moral code he was utterly amoral.
They originally presented him as though he was a faithful adaptation of Batman's most dangerous foe.
By co-opting his legend, they relegated him from being a grand villain who saw the defeat of Batman as the ultimate expression of his superiority, to a love-struck thug of a man-servant, who was brutalised by the inmates of the prison rather than being held in awe as their unassailable King.
He was basically neutered.
It cheapened his victory over Batman in the film and cheapened Batman's subsequent victory.
....You really know how to pick at a scab

 

[Ryan]

....No.
That was a massive problem for me with this movie. Bane was created to be the ultimate Batman villain in many ways.
A self-made physical marvel, a brutal combatant, a genius level intellect and given a physical edge with Venom.
He wasn't evil per se, but in contrast to Batman's strict moral code he was utterly amoral.
They originally presented him as though he was a faithful adaptation of Batman's most dangerous foe.
By co-opting his legend, they relegated him from being a grand villain who saw the defeat of Batman as the ultimate expression of his superiority, to a love-struck thug of a man-servant, who was brutalised by the inmates of the prison rather than being held in awe as their unassailable King.
He was basically neutered.
It cheapened his victory over Batman in the film and cheapened Batman's subsequent victory.
....You really know how to pick at a scab

Haha...sorry about that. Thanks for giving your take on that and other aspects of the films

 

[Batsfan1]

....No.
That was a massive problem for me with this movie. Bane was created to be the ultimate Batman villain in many ways.
A self-made physical marvel, a brutal combatant, a genius level intellect and given a physical edge with Venom.
He wasn't evil per se, but in contrast to Batman's strict moral code he was utterly amoral.
They originally presented him as though he was a faithful adaptation of Batman's most dangerous foe.
By co-opting his legend, they relegated him from being a grand villain who saw the defeat of Batman as the ultimate expression of his superiority, to a love-struck thug of a man-servant, who was brutalised by the inmates of the prison rather than being held in awe as their unassailable King.
He was basically neutered.
It cheapened his victory over Batman in the film and cheapened Batman's subsequent victory.
....You really know how to pick at a scab

A man not being a king and caring about a woman doesn't make him neutered. That's a little offensive. He wasn't love struck or even a real servant. Him being brutalized fits the normal human thing. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[shauner111]

The prisoners still feared Bane. He wasn't necessarily in love with Talia, he may have just loved her like one loves a child or a sister. We don't know if it was romantic. I also don't see him as a servant. Him and Talia were together on this. He did things without consulting her and even goes against her request at the end to not kill Batman. It's a 50/50 partnership. I NEVER saw it like Bane was a man-servant.

 

[Herofan]

This is a pretty interesting read from a critical point of view, and it basically sums up my feeings for the movie.

http://therawness.com/why-i-hated-the-dark-knight/

Despite some pettiness, especially complaining a lot about the death of Harvey Dent (which was clearly unintentional/incidental to saving Gordon's son), I thought he made a few good points.

Batman is weak and indecisive, letting people die on his watch regularly, agonizing over every decision, and even trying to steal a woman he loves from her fiance while claiming to admire said fiance.

I forget if he outright tried to "steal" Rachel away but it was annoying how he just assumed Rachel would of course choose him over Harvey. Also him flirting with revealing his identity but Harvey claiming it felt like building up Harvey at the expense of Bruce.

The message is that the average person who follows the rules or is in charge of enforcing them, when under pressure, is at the end of the day no morally better than your worst death row murderer. So even though the Joker lost because the ships didn’t blow up, he has still proven to be sort of right about the ugliness of humanity.

That the prisoners were more moral than the rest always seemed a little pretentious and the overall message is indeed pretty grim, that ordinary institutions can't handle pressure (i.e. the police come to despise Batman and want to abandon him if he leads to dead cops), the authorities need less restraint and more power (the mass surveillance even though it tries to have it both ways by insisting it's for just this one time) and the masses need to be manipulated. Those aren't really story weaknesses but they seem a little underdeveloped and ignored by a lot of the viewers.

Nolan has created a bad guy that blatantly looks crazy and psychotic and depraved from the moment you see him, before he even speaks, like Leatherface or the blonde Japanese guy from Ichi the Killer. When you see Ledger’s Joker, there’s no doubt from the beginning that you are looking at a depraved lunatic, that subtle cognitive dissonance you get from seeing a fun looking clown also switch into psycho killer mode is taken away and instead you just see a guy that looks like a sick serial killer acting like a sick serial killer.

The Joker probably shouldn't look outright harmless or fun-looking but the creepiness of the appearance should be somewhat subtle. Ledger's Joker looked and acted a little too angrily crazy and evil with too little humor, even dark humor, or charisma (though he had a few moments of dark charisma). He seems much more like an anarchist who incidentally uses a clown appearance rather than a dark/evil clown.

 

[Steamteck]

This is a pretty interesting read from a critical point of view, and it basically sums up my feeings for the movie.

http://therawness.com/why-i-hated-the-dark-knight/

This guy is on my wavelength also. Thanks for the link

 

[wnjcwjkk]

I agree with the points made in the OP, although I think it's a fantastic movie, one of my favorite CBMs, but I agree it kinda comes apart in the final act, for whatever reason, every time I watch it, I'm like "This movie is incredible!" But then, the final act never lives up to the hype of the first two acts. People have called it The Godfather of CBMs, and I feel like it could have lived up to that if it had been a bit longer, closer to 3 hours, and the final hour was as good as the first hour. It needed a better climax, and more Two Face and a little more exploring Harvey Dent's other side before he turned into Two Face.


I wouldn't call it overrated though. I remember seeing it in the theater, knowing absolutely nothing, aside from the one teaser with Joker in the cell, I didn't even know Harvey Dent was gonna be in the film, much less Two Face. And, as soon as Joker pulled off the clown mask, I was riveted, every time he showed up on screen, Idk that I've ever been that intrigued and blown away by a character and performance while watching a movie. One poster above said it right, Nolan and the cast captured lightning in a bottle.

I don't think no matter what they do with Joker from now on, it will never be able to achieve that level, because it was just so unexpected and unheard of in a CBM at the time, but I don't think that should stop them from trying. I had high hopes after seeing that quick clip of Leto's Joker at the end of the CC trailer. But unfortunately, I don't think David Ayer was the right man for the job.

 

[shauner111]

The final hour is incredible.

 

[guardians]

It;s a good movie, if you don't like it then move on - A lot of depth to it.

 

[Consona]

Re-watched it. It's the best film ever. t:

 

[shauner111]

Eaaaaasy big fella!

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I love CBMs but this is the only one to make it into my all-time top ten films (it comes in at #8). As for live-action Batman movies I think Nolan and Burton both had some fantastic ideas - I'd rank my top 5 as

1. The Dark Knight
2. Batman Returns
3. The Dark Knight Rises
4. Batman Begins
5. Batman '89

 

[2002SpideyFan]

But Spidey or Flash, or Iron Man don't need to be taken seriously for the majority of a film. That's the opposite of what should happen.

Iron Man, out of all Marvel heroes, is the one that should be taken seriously.

Granted, movies didn't do that. But that's not to say as if he never should be taken seriously.

 

[The_Manhunter]

My problems:

The sub plot about Bruce wanting to give up being Batman because of Dent makes no sense and almost ruins the film for me. For one thing Bruce states 'He locked up 500 criminals and he did it without wearing a mask.' but he completely ignores the fact that the only reason Dent was able to do this was because Batman went to China and brought Lau back. Also this is bad because it makes no sense that Bruce would go away and train for 7 years of his life just to want to quit after a year. But that is a symptom of my next problem.

Another thing that ruins the trilogy for me is that Batman is almost entirely motivated by his feelings for Rachel when Batman should be above that sort of thing. In Begins the only reason he targets the mob is because she tells him they are responsible for his parent's death. In TDK he wants to quit being Batman after only one year just so he can be with her. In TDKR he quits for 8 years just because of her death! If I had my way I would have just had Bruce's childhood friend who becomes a lawyer be Harvey Dent and just not have a love interest until Catwoman.

It's annoying too that Batman seems to have become much worse at his job than in Begins. In the scene with Scarecrow he tries (and fails) to cut into the back of the van and I have no idea why. That was probably the most pointless thing to try and do because Crane wasn't even in the back of the van! And in the nightclub scene some random henchman manages to knock Batman over the head with a glass bottle, if he hadn't been wearing a helmet he would have been killed right then and there and the movie would be over. That's so much different than when he managed to take out a group of several armed gunmen in Begins with ease.

The thing that actually ruins this film for me is the fact that mere minutes after making a speech to the Joker about how he would never break his rule, he pushes Harvey off of a ledge and kills him! I could have been okay with this is it had been played up in the movie as a big deal that Batman broke his rule, but the movie just seems to not realise that Harvey's death was entirely Batman's fault. And it's not even like he had no other choice, as a ninja he could of easily snuck up behind Dent while he was holding Gordon's son and choked him until he passed out. Then they could have had a nice long talk about philosophy through Harvey's prison bars, but no he just walks right up to him like an idiot! This ending completely ruins the movie for me.

I still think it's a great movie, but I can't enjoy it because it's terrible as a Batman movie. It's a shame too because I felt that Begins-Batman could have easily developed into a comic book accurate Batman, but he just got weaker over the course of the trilogy.

I know this is an old post, but I agree with much of what you said. That being said, I think TDK is still the best of the trilogy and an all-time great among comic book films. Really the only issue I have with it is the amount of sway Rachel has over Bruce.

 

[shauner111]

Lmao so if he hadn't been wearing a helmet he would have been killed? "If". And that's why it's stupid? Ooooookaaay.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think the thread is fan-baitey.

"Let's insult one of your favorite movies."

A simple "criticisms of TDK" would do.

That being said, I think TDK falters the most with its third act.

The fight on top of the building is downright cartoony, with Batman rigging up safety cables on the fly while saving everyone even with him moving sluggishly at times.

I'm in the minority where I think TDK is brilliant at first viewing, but loses appeal on subsequent viewings.

It's like it's designed for the mystery of what's going to happen to carry along the second half of the movie.

I'm sure there's some character analysis out on the web, and maybe I should read some, but the characters seem to be straightforward outside of the Joker.

So while I think it's an exceptional entry in the superhero genre, I don't think it's one of the best movies ever made. So in that sense I find it overrated.

 

[Batmannerism]

You know, every time I think this movie is overrated I watch it....and re-discover that it isn't.

 

[Alex Logan]

The prisoners still feared Bane. He wasn't necessarily in love with Talia, he may have just loved her like one loves a child or a sister. We don't know if it was romantic. I also don't see him as a servant. Him and Talia were together on this. He did things without consulting her and even goes against her request at the end to not kill Batman. It's a 50/50 partnership. I NEVER saw it like Bane was a man-servant.

Exactly.

 

[Alex Logan]

I know this is an old post, but I agree with much of what you said. That being said, I think TDK is still the best of the trilogy and an all-time great among comic book films. Really the only issue I have with it is the amount of sway Rachel has over Bruce.

At least two of these points are inaccurate. Bruce didn't quit being Batman because of Rachel's death and he didn't "push" Harvey Dent. However, he does make a good case for no love interest and Dent being his childhood friend. I've long said that "Batman Begins" and "The Dark Knight" didn't need a love interest.

 

[BruceWayne2]

I love the film. But some criticisms would be that a lot of the internal logic of the real world aspect of the film is a little flawed, like too many things kinda just coincidentally work out just to move the story quickly, or you can't really stop and think about certain things too long. Like the whole Gordon faking his death thing. How did they plan that it was gonna work out like that, when they didn't even know how the assassination attempt was gonna go down? And if Batman was in on it, why does he show up at Gordon's residence all brooding and "God help whoever he does wanna talk to." You could say it was just for show and to protect his family and get the element of surprise on Joker, but really it was all just meant to be a big twist for the audience.

Or what was Scarecrow doing, selling his fear toxin as a drug then showing up to rub it in the guy's face after he bought a lot without testing it out first, but then maybe he's gonna buy some more of it because Batman didn't leave anybody else to score drugs from. And then all these Batman impersonators find out about this weird meeting and show up to stop it, and somehow Batman has his Batmobile programmed to just crash into this third story parking garage and shoot a rocket launcher without killing anybody, all on it's own.

The bus backs straight into a bank in broad daylight, then Joker pulls out perfectly into a big line of school buses and drives off like it's all normal? Any one of those buses Would have seen that and have access to a radio, the cops would come and Joker would have a hard time escaping under those circumstances. But it's just meant to show how slick Joker is

Joker knew they would be taking a boatload of escaping Gothamites as well as a boatload of prisoners st the same time. The whole thing acting like Harvey's Rico arrests were responsible for everybody on the boat, and that one big arrest cleaned up the streets and put a stop to all organized crime. Just seems too convenient and easy

Those are a couple examples off the top of my head. But they're easy to overlook, because the film moves at such a speed and is so high quality that you don't really need to stop and think about the internal logic too much

 

[BruceWayne2]

It was never confirmed that any of that happened though. I guess you can take from it that something bad did happen to him though, which set him off on his dark path (in addition to being disfigured by the chemicals). Personally I like the idea that Zero Year presents as Jokers origin more than Killing Joke (even though I think Killing Joke is a better story than Zero Year, overall). It had him as the leader of a gang that was causing chaos around Gotham and trying to get across the message that life is meaningless and worthless and that instead of being afraid of it, you should embrace it. Bruce summed up the leader of the gang (who was supposedly Joker) with a great speech at the end.

Personally I prefer the idea of the Joker being evil even before he became the Joker. It makes more sense to me and I guess I just like the idea better. I also find it more believable that he was capable of coming up with all of his great plans as the Joker after having experience of being a leader of a criminal gang, instead of being an average joe that suddenly became this evil genius in what, I think, is supposed to be a short period of time before he first meets Batman (although the idea of the Joker being a normal person who became this mastermind that Batman struggles with is also a good take IMO and I like that story too, I just prefer the story that Zero Year presents).

I like it being a mystery, but my favorite is the online fan theory that he used to be a soldier and something terrible happened to him ("A truckload of soldiers will get blown to bits. Nobody panics.") that would make sense with his knowledge of weapons, explosives, and hand to hand combat. Maybe he was a sociopath so he signed up for the military to get to participate in chaos and killing. Then his unit got blown to bits and he was captured, a POW, tortured, and snapped.

 

[shauner111]

I love the film. But some criticisms would be that a lot of the internal logic of the real world aspect of the film is a little flawed, like too many things kinda just coincidentally work out just to move the story quickly, or you can't really stop and think about certain things too long. Like the whole Gordon faking his death thing. How did they plan that it was gonna work out like that, when they didn't even know how the assassination attempt was gonna go down? And if Batman was in on it, why does he show up at Gordon's residence all brooding and "God help whoever he does wanna talk to." You could say it was just for show and to protect his family and get the element of surprise on Joker, but really it was all just meant to be a big twist for the audience.

Or what was Scarecrow doing, selling his fear toxin as a drug then showing up to rub it in the guy's face after he bought a lot without testing it out first, but then maybe he's gonna buy some more of it because Batman didn't leave anybody else to score drugs from. And then all these Batman impersonators find out about this weird meeting and show up to stop it, and somehow Batman has his Batmobile programmed to just crash into this third story parking garage and shoot a rocket launcher without killing anybody, all on it's own.

The bus backs straight into a bank in broad daylight, then Joker pulls out perfectly into a big line of school buses and drives off like it's all normal? Any one of those buses Would have seen that and have access to a radio, the cops would come and Joker would have a hard time escaping under those circumstances. But it's just meant to show how slick Joker is

Joker knew they would be taking a boatload of escaping Gothamites as well as a boatload of prisoners st the same time. The whole thing acting like Harvey's Rico arrests were responsible for everybody on the boat, and that one big arrest cleaned up the streets and put a stop to all organized crime. Just seems too convenient and easy

Those are a couple examples off the top of my head. But they're easy to overlook, because the film moves at such a speed and is so high quality that you don't really need to stop and think about the internal logic too much

Cant argue with a lot of this. Most of what you're saying is the reason why I can't look at TDK or any of the films as masterpieces. TDK is still a classic, always enjoyable. One of my favorites from that decade. But you have to ignore some things, not unlike Begins or Rises. That's why I still roll my eyes when ppl on here tear Rises apart but act like the first two movies were so neat and tidy.

 

[Herofan]

I kind of hate the discussion of the Roman dictator-protectors, trying to use it as a positive model seems like a really weak, forced claim since it's a very obvious response that sooner or later one would/actually did come, and became infamous, who refused to give up the power.

 

[ashwilliams8891]

The plotting of the film up to this point is fierce and perfectly paced.