BvS The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 3

[sf2]

If the word "Martha" can change Bruce's mind so easily, then I don't see how Superman explaining things couldn't.

haha... this is exactly what i wanna say but the opposite way.

you think by explaining, it can change bruce's / batman's perception???

that's how powerful the 'Martha' word is to Bruce. and the movie has put so much ink and emphasis on it.

put yourself into bruce's shoe... you thought you are still the good guy doing the right thing... and all a sudden your enemy saying you are letting them kill martha... your mother... your deep wound... wouldn't you pause to find out why?

 

[Lencho01]

haha... this is exactly what i wanna say but the opposite way.

you think by explaining, it can change bruce's / batman's perception???

that's how powerful the 'Martha' word is to Bruce. and the movie has put so much ink and emphasis on it.

put yourself into bruce's shoe... you thought you are still the good guy doing the right thing... and all a sudden your enemy saying you are letting them kill martha... your mother... your deep wound... wouldn't you pause to find out why?

Nah, I don't buy it. Snyder and co. didn't present a character who would just stop his illogical and hellbent mission on killing Superman due to one word. It was a dumb moment.

 

[Limonade]

haha... this is exactly what i wanna say but the opposite way.

you think by explaining, it can change bruce's / batman's perception???

that's how powerful the 'Martha' word is to Bruce. and the movie has put so much ink and emphasis on it.

put yourself into bruce's shoe... you thought you are still the good guy doing the right thing... and all a sudden your enemy saying you are letting them kill martha... your mother... your deep wound... wouldn't you pause to find out why?

Martha. It's like the reverse yo' momma joke. Instead of starting a fight, it ends one.

 

[sf2]

Nah, I don't buy it. Snyder and co. didn't present a character who would just stop his illogical and hellbent mission on killing Superman due to one word. It was a dumb moment.

and if snyder and co. did the explanation thing. u and your co. will still bit.ch and complain till the 7th heaven... because he is batman!!! no one can convince batman!!! not even Alfred!

no chance he can get in if you close the door.

 

[Lencho01]

and if snyder and co. did the explanation thing. u and your co. will still bit.ch and complain till the 7th heaven... because he is batman!!! no one can convince batman!!! not even Alfred!

no chance he can get in if you close the door.

EDIT: Gerry Conway gives a good explanation why Snyder and co's storytelling didn't work with using Batman as his example...

Narrative and character in “Batman vs Superman”

 

[sf2]

EDIT: Gerry Conway gives a good explanation why Snyder and co's storytelling didn't work with using Batman as his example...

Narrative and character in “Batman vs Superman”

...
"When Superman says "Save Martha" and "You're letting Martha die" or something to that effect, Batman is instantly snapped back to the loss that he could never cope with, the real nightmare that has haunted him all his life and that has pushed him further and further away from the feminine. He gave his life up to battle crime, it was his coping mechanism but in the end he realised it was all for nothing. Neither could he stop crime and make Gotham a better place nor could he ever change what had happened with his parents even though he tried to fix it with his actions for 20 years by taking up the mantle of the Bat, which was the "beautiful lie" he references at the beginning of the film.

All the losses he faced during his life - the death of his parents, the death of Jason Todd (Robin), seen by the Robin suit with the Joker's scribbled taunts, in the Batcave, the loss of his Wayne Financial employees in the battle between Superman and Zod - all lead him further and further away from the feminine. When Luthor manipulates Bruce and strikes the final blow with the note that says "You let your family die" it invokes the darkest parts of the masculine in Bruce since it reminds him of all the times that he was powerless to save his various families, and takes over him completely leading to his absolute and unwavering resolve in killing Superman.

(An interesting point to note, noticed by someone online: Bruce's dreams all start and end with the sound of the World Engine destroying Metropolis in the Zod battle, signifying that the losses faced by Bruce at that point subconsciously reminded him of his losses as a child since he was powerless to do anything in both instances. He therefore equated his parents' killer to Superman and the Kryptonians and started seeing himself as the potential saviour of humanity.)

By becoming blind with rage and almost killing Superman, he truly was "letting Martha die" since he had suppressed his losses and the feminine, the good, and became the very thing he fought against all his life - the overpowering and uncontrollable masculine. But hearing his mother's name reminded him of why he started fighting crime in the first place (to do good) and that brought him back from the edge."
...
you can read it here... if you care... and want to know why it works
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=512399

 

[FunkMiller]

...
"When Superman says "Save Martha" and "You're letting Martha die" or something to that effect, Batman is instantly snapped back to the loss that he could never cope with, the real nightmare that has haunted him all his life and that has pushed him further and further away from the feminine. He gave his life up to battle crime, it was his coping mechanism but in the end he realised it was all for nothing. Neither could he stop crime and make Gotham a better place nor could he ever change what had happened with his parents even though he tried to fix it with his actions for 20 years by taking up the mantle of the Bat, which was the "beautiful lie" he references at the beginning of the film.

All the losses he faced during his life - the death of his parents, the death of Jason Todd (Robin), seen by the Robin suit with the Joker's scribbled taunts, in the Batcave, the loss of his Wayne Financial employees in the battle between Superman and Zod - all lead him further and further away from the feminine. When Luthor manipulates Bruce and strikes the final blow with the note that says "You let your family die" it invokes the darkest parts of the masculine in Bruce since it reminds him of all the times that he was powerless to save his various families, and takes over him completely leading to his absolute and unwavering resolve in killing Superman.

(An interesting point to note, noticed by someone online: Bruce's dreams all start and end with the sound of the World Engine destroying Metropolis in the Zod battle, signifying that the losses faced by Bruce at that point subconsciously reminded him of his losses as a child since he was powerless to do anything in both instances. He therefore equated his parents' killer to Superman and the Kryptonians and started seeing himself as the potential saviour of humanity.)

By becoming blind with rage and almost killing Superman, he truly was "letting Martha die" since he had suppressed his losses and the feminine, the good, and became the very thing he fought against all his life - the overpowering and uncontrollable masculine. But hearing his mother's name reminded him of why he started fighting crime in the first place (to do good) and that brought him back from the edge."
...
you can read it here... if you care... and want to know why it works
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=512399

As someone who actually studied Jung, and didn't just read about it in a post somebody else had written on an internet forum, your constant misappropriation and poor understanding of the terms 'the feminine' and 'the masculine' quite frankly make my teeth itch. Try actually reading Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious, before trying to use it to justify this silly film.

The post you link to in your off the mark defence of BvS, uses the Wikipedia page about Jung as its primary - and only - source of reference for his argument. That should tell you all you need to know about the veracity of this particular defence.

TL DR?

Read a ****ing book sometime.

 

[FunkMiller]

EDIT: Gerry Conway gives a good explanation why Snyder and co's storytelling didn't work with using Batman as his example...

Narrative and character in “Batman vs Superman”

An extremely good sum up there of how people are 'filling in the blanks' to justify poor story telling and characterisation in BvS. Narratives should indeed be closed loops. If they rely on external information to make the story make sense, then that narrative has failed. This is absolutely true of BvS.

 

[Loki882]

Also there's a difference between say, leaving larger moral or philosophical questions ambiguous because there is really no one "correct" answer and you want to leave it up to the audience to make up their own minds, and then just flat-out not explaining (or at least not explaining well) basic plot-points and character motivations.

THAT is just lazy and sloppy.

 

[Lencho01]

...
"When Superman says "Save Martha" and "You're letting Martha die" or something to that effect, Batman is instantly snapped back to the loss that he could never cope with, the real nightmare that has haunted him all his life and that has pushed him further and further away from the feminine. He gave his life up to battle crime, it was his coping mechanism but in the end he realised it was all for nothing. Neither could he stop crime and make Gotham a better place nor could he ever change what had happened with his parents even though he tried to fix it with his actions for 20 years by taking up the mantle of the Bat, which was the "beautiful lie" he references at the beginning of the film.

All the losses he faced during his life - the death of his parents, the death of Jason Todd (Robin), seen by the Robin suit with the Joker's scribbled taunts, in the Batcave, the loss of his Wayne Financial employees in the battle between Superman and Zod - all lead him further and further away from the feminine. When Luthor manipulates Bruce and strikes the final blow with the note that says "You let your family die" it invokes the darkest parts of the masculine in Bruce since it reminds him of all the times that he was powerless to save his various families, and takes over him completely leading to his absolute and unwavering resolve in killing Superman.

(An interesting point to note, noticed by someone online: Bruce's dreams all start and end with the sound of the World Engine destroying Metropolis in the Zod battle, signifying that the losses faced by Bruce at that point subconsciously reminded him of his losses as a child since he was powerless to do anything in both instances. He therefore equated his parents' killer to Superman and the Kryptonians and started seeing himself as the potential saviour of humanity.)

By becoming blind with rage and almost killing Superman, he truly was "letting Martha die" since he had suppressed his losses and the feminine, the good, and became the very thing he fought against all his life - the overpowering and uncontrollable masculine. But hearing his mother's name reminded him of why he started fighting crime in the first place (to do good) and that brought him back from the edge."
...
you can read it here... if you care... and want to know why it works
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=512399

An extremely good sum up there of how people are 'filling in the blanks' to justify poor story telling and characterisation in BvS. Narratives should indeed be closed loops. If they rely on external information to make the story make sense, then that narrative has failed. This is absolutely true of BvS.

Yeah, they just didn't showcase well enough in the film why Batman would just stop his attempt at killing Superman. It really just didn't work with the story they told. To make it work, you end up filling gaps that the film should have.

 

[sf2]

As someone who actually studied Jung, and didn't just read about it in a post somebody else had written on an internet forum, your constant misappropriation and poor understanding of the terms 'the feminine' and 'the masculine' quite frankly make my teeth itch. Try actually reading Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious, before trying to use it to justify this silly film.

The post you link to in your off the mark defence of BvS, uses the Wikipedia page about Jung as its primary - and only - source of reference for his argument. That should tell you all you need to know about the veracity of this particular defence.

TL DR?

Read a ****ing book sometime.

sorry. as you know i seldom read a ***ing book and my ****ing english is poor. i thought the poster explained better than me, therefore i quoted him, hoping you guys would understand better... i was so ****ing wrong.

even though my ****ing english is poor, i still understand BvS better than you guys... hmmm shame on me i suppose...

perhaps zack snyder should apologise for trying to make it an epic than another pop-culture movie.

 

[sf2]

example of epic ness

Joseph Campbell quote
it is also the theme of the movie...

“And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god;" - refer to Lex, he found superman who saved him from another abomination.

"where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves;" refer to bruce / batman. the batmonster he has became he managed to slay it in the end.

"where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.” refers to superman... the travel alone to find answer and then returns to embrace his world...

 

[Xrated48]

sorry. as you know i seldom read a ***ing book and my ****ing english is poor. i thought the poster explained better than me, therefore i quoted him, hoping you guys would understand better... i was so ****ing wrong.

even though my ****ing english is poor, i still understand BvS better than you guys... hmmm shame on me i suppose...

perhaps zack snyder should apologise for trying to make it an epic than another pop-culture movie.

It's not about understanding the film better than other people it's about being a good piece of cinema and most people who saw the film including myself did not enjoy it. I understood the film but the way Snyder put the narrative together was awful imo.

 

[Tony Gunk]

The "Martha" thing is going to be a running joke for years much in the same way the bat credit card is mocked.

It was unbelievably stupid

 

[Light]

The "Martha" thing is going to be a running joke for years much in the same way the bat credit card is mocked.

It was unbelievably stupid

Unbelievably stupid and illogical even for a movie with a flying man, this man was enraged and completely bloodlusted yet a name convinced him to stop his mission of ending a being he was convinced could wipe out the human race. What changed with the word Martha being uttered that wouldn't make Superman wipe out humanity? It also highlights what an idiot this Batman is, my definitive Batman would have carried out research on Superman to the point of deducting that his favourite food is corn bread and that he lives as a civilian when he isn't helping emphasis on helping.

 

[Tony Gunk]

The whole idea of Superman even saying Martha is flawed. In reality he'd have said mom so Batman knew he had a mother, then Lois wouldn't have had to explain it.

It's one of the most embarrassing plot points I've seen in a blockbuster film. That's why it was roundly mocked with memes and all sorts.

 

[sf2]

The whole idea of Superman even saying Martha is flawed. In reality he'd have said mom so Batman knew he had a mother, then Lois wouldn't have had to explain it.

It's one of the most embarrassing plot points I've seen in a blockbuster film. That's why it was roundly mocked with memes and all sorts.

batman is about to kill him, do you think if he mentioned his mother is in danger, he will give a damn about it??? at least by mentioning 'Martha', batman might wanna save an innocent after killing him.

clear?

if you are to kill your enemy, do you still care about the safety of your enemy's mother??? clear???

if clark'a mother name isn't martha, is maria, batman will proceed to kill him... maybe later will go and save maria... an innocent... and superman will at least save his mother this way...

clear???

It's not about understanding the film better than other people it's about being a good piece of cinema and most people who saw the film including myself did not enjoy it. I understood the film but the way Snyder put the narrative together was awful imo.

xrate, see above. understanding is an issue.

people hate thing they don't understand... martha is always right.

 

[Tony Gunk]

None of its clear. The story doesn't even make it clear that the two are aware of their respective mothers names, that's part of the reason it doesn't work and everyone's laughing at it. It's just incredibly poor, sloppy, amateurish writing.

 

[Lencho01]

The whole idea of Superman even saying Martha is flawed. In reality he'd have said mom so Batman knew he had a mother, then Lois wouldn't have had to explain it.

It's one of the most embarrassing plot points I've seen in a blockbuster film. That's why it was roundly mocked with memes and all sorts.

And if he said, "Mom" it wouldn't have "worked" since before that scene Batman said that one line about Superman's parents telling him that he was special or whatever

 

[sf2]

None of its clear. The story doesn't even make it clear that the two are aware of their respective mothers names, that's part of the reason it doesn't work and everyone's laughing at it. It's just incredibly poor, sloppy, amateurish writing.

amateurish writing???

i think it's more of philosophical writing...

Joseph Campbell's quote is the theme of the movie...

“And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god;"
refer to Lex, he found superman who saved him from another abomination.

"where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves;"
refer to bruce / batman. the batmonster he had became he managed to slay it in the end.

"where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.”
refers to superman... he traveled alone to north pole to find answer and then returned to embrace his world...

epic, isn't it?

problem is people prefer pop-culture, Simple words for simple minds... everything must be drawn on the wall bold & clear...

 

[Xrated48]

clear???
xrate, see above. understanding is an issue.
people hate thing they don't understand... martha is always right.

Understanding is not an issue at least for this film. The general audiences and comic book fans understand the movie just fine, but like most people they hate film not because they can't understand it but because it is not good film for many reasons.

 

[sf2]

Understanding is not an issue at least for this film. The general audiences and comic book fans understand the movie just fine, but like most people they hate film not because they can't understand it but because it is not good film for many reasons.

there are plenty of not good films, people won't waste their precious time to hate them... if they are wise...
people are trying to make out like its a worse movie than it is. They just won't let the movie be, they won't judge it as a standalone movie. They bring all these expectations of what Superman or Batman should be, what a Comic Book Superhero film should be.

 

[Xrated48]

there are plenty of not good films, people won't waste their precious time to hate them... if they are wise...
people are trying to make out like its a worse movie than it is. They just won't let the movie be, they won't judge it as a standalone movie. They bring all these expectations of what Superman or Batman should be, what a Comic Book Superhero film should be.

Fans are passionate for these characters and all the fans who did not like it will express there dissapointment about the film.

 

[FunkMiller]

sorry. as you know i seldom read a ***ing book and my ****ing english is poor. i thought the poster explained better than me, therefore i quoted him, hoping you guys would understand better... i was so ****ing wrong.

even though my ****ing english is poor, i still understand BvS better than you guys... hmmm shame on me i suppose...

perhaps zack snyder should apologise for trying to make it an epic than another pop-culture movie.

Don't you think it might be better to not defend your movie using psychological theory you don't understand? Undermines your argument completely.

Just saying you understand BvS better than us does not make it so.

Getting mad because you feel I'm patronising you? Stop telling people you understand the movie better than others then. Same thing.

...and read a book.

 

[sf2]

Don't you think it might be better to not defend your movie using psychological theory you don't understand? Undermines your argument completely.

Just saying you understand BvS better than us does not make it so.

Getting mad because you feel I'm patronising you? Stop telling people you understand the movie better than others then. Same thing.

...and read a book.

then what are we here for???

just to dump and dump shiiit, and negative thoughts endlessly? hoping to get better or trying to make others as negative... ?

perhaps read a book comment suit you better... to calm yourself down as u said you are getting mad?