The Punisher The Punisher FULL SEASON ONE Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[righthooksrus86]

I think they radically changed Frank's character to appease the politically correct era of 2017. Maybe that wasn't it, but what kind of ending is that really? And how do you go back from that?

Yea definitely, which makes me really sad because Marvel probably will never hsve the cajones to do a season based on some Up is Down and Black is White because or In the Begnning because of this.

 

[Snikt]

For anyone who's finished the series, please tell me the massive shootout from the trailers (with him wearing the skull on his chest) isn't the season finale.

Watching episode 5 now.

 

[mikeboydus]

For anyone who's finished the series, please tell me the massive shootout from the trailers (with him wearing the skull on his chest) isn't the season finale.

Watching episode 5 now.

Its from episode 12, which might as well be the finale. Episode 13 is more like an epilogue.

 

[strangelove]

For me, this was a slow burn masterpiece. Essentially a hybrid Year One story but not adopting any particular arc. Loved how they dared to step away from the beaten path and also explore the characters and their motivations. Next level "ish". A wholesome rendition.

 

[Hotwire]

I think they radically changed Frank's character to appease the politically correct era of 2017. Maybe that wasn't it, but what kind of ending is that really? And how do you go back from that?

What's the politically correct part?

 

[Heretic]

For me, this did something that other Marvel Netflix shows haven't....it build in excitement. Most shows start great and kind of run out of steam midway through (or, in the case of Iron Fist, never really get going). This show started a bit slow and I was worried about all of the "subplot" characters that tend to just be time fillers...but I actually got connected to them this time. By the time episode 9 and 10 rolled around...usually when I'm really losing interest...this show was peaking into some real excitement.

Not perfect...I may have to think about where it fits in my Netflix Marvel list (I ABSOLUTELY prefer it to Iron Fist, Defenders, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage), but really really good.

 

[inomilan]

I loved this series! Loved the characters and felt the brutality they were going for. Tho I still like DD and Jessica Jones more (or at least tied with JJ), this was way better than Luke Cage, Defenders and Iron Fist.

 

[dmcreif]

-I love Frank/Karen, but don't want an actual romance.

Yeah, that probably would go against what the Punisher stands for. Frank doesn't do female attachments. And I think it would be very hypocritical of Karen to not accept/have uneasiness about Matt being Daredevil, yet be totally cool with Frank killing people.

-Never much cared for Ben Barnes, but I thought he did well as Russo. There were no villains here on the level of Kingpin or Purple Man, but I'm still looking forward to his return as Jigsaw.

You know, with some of the stuff Billy does, like that whole bit with his mother, or his seducing Dinah, I almost wonder if Ben Barnes was considered as an alternate casting choice for Kilgrave if David Tennant wasn't available.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

I think Ben Barnes has great potential when he comes back as Jigsaw. He was really falling apart towards the end and I love how it was such an apparent contrast from how smooth and charming he was in the beginning. Honestly, if I hadn't seen Punisher: Warzone I wouldn't even have known he was a bad guy, because he was so likable at first.

 

[Hotwire]

Yeah, that probably would go against what the Punisher stands for. Frank doesn't do female attachments. And I think it would be very hypocritical of Karen to not accept/have uneasiness about Matt being Daredevil, yet be totally cool with Frank killing people.



You know, with some of the stuff Billy does, like that whole bit with his mother, or his seducing Dinah, I almost wonder if Ben Barnes was considered as an alternate casting choice for Kilgrave if David Tennant wasn't available.

The coup de grace for Billy, in my opinion, was washing Sam's blood off of Dinah, consoling her the whole time. That's sadistic!

 

[Mike Murdock]

So is this like the other series and about 5 episodes too long? Are there any Easter Eggs to the rest of the MCU?

To the MCU? Not really. This is very much something that didn't even have to be a comic book show if it didn't want to be (which is something often true for the Punisher in the comics). The bigger Easter Eggs are to Punisher comics references like the Gnuccis.

I'll start off by saying that this series isn't at all what you think it will be. Don't go in expecting something like John Wick because this is honestly closer to First Blood than anything else.

It honestly should be. The inspiration for the Punisher and for First Blood are precisely the same.

- Wilson's subplot was also lame and the fact Frank didn't finish him off himself was frustrating.

Honestly, I thought that subplot worked very well. Of all the shows with a subplot, this is the first that didn't feel forced or superfluous to me. It was part of the thematic core of the show and led to the reveal about Russo, which progressed the plot.

-The Frank/Micro dynamic makes the show. It really does.

-I love Frank/Karen, but don't want an actual romance.

I agree wholeheartedly about both of these.

-The ending, however, was NOT. Seriously, that is the exact opposite of the ending a Punisher show should have. I was looking forward to seeing how they would find a way to segue this back into his war on criminals from DD S2, and realize his war is never ending, even after revenge. Not...this. That's not not The Punisher. Boo.

I thought it made a ton of sense for the story they were telling. Honestly, they didn't have a second season, it was a fitting ending. The problem is more that they'll have to undermine it all to continue the story. That being said, the core of Punisher as a story is that his killing of criminals is because he views it as a war because he can't live with peace. The ending is very much exploring that. He's expressing uncertainty with how to live with peace.

Its from episode 12, which might as well be the finale. Episode 13 is more like an epilogue.

I was honestly confused with five minutes left in episode 12 because it felt like an ending. But the final episode made a lot of sense and I thought it was well done. Having it come down to him and Billy was necessary.

 

[UnknownCriminal]

This is easily the most well written, directed, acted and developed of all of the Netflix Marvel shows. Every character is well fleshed out and I actually cared about what was going on for a change. They feel like real people. The overall story arc and structure to the season was incredibly well designed and played out. It had a purpose. This is on par with Daredevil as the best Marvel Netflix show so far. The only real issue I have with it is the same issue that plagues every single one of these shows: They're just too damn long. Not a single one of them justified the 13 episode count and it always feels like they're dragging things out just to get there. 10 episodes would be pretty much perfect for all of them, and in this particular case you could also easily shave off 5 or 10 minutes out of every episode without losing anything of real value. It would make the whole thing much tighter and even better. Other than that, I honestly have no complaints. Even things that were annoying me at the beginning and either felt wrong or seemed like were leading nowhere played a significant part at the end. Well done, Netflix and Marvel. After the hot garbage that was Iron Fist and the dispassionate mediocrity of The Defenders, this show renewed my faith on the whole endeavor.

 

[Hotwire]

I liked how it ended. It closed the book on that chapter. We all know that the peace won't last. The first couple episodes show us this. Plus, we all know The Punisher. Given that Billy is still alive, they left an option for season 2. Billy can become Jigsaw and come after Frank, Micro, Karen, etc.. Frank then falls right back into the role of Punisher. By the end of season 2, he realizes it's never going to end.

Someone compared this to First Blood. That's a very good comparison! Season 2 should be a lot like Rambo.

 

[MurkeNyou]

What's the politically correct part?

Who knows, I keep seeing these kind of comments in regards to this show, it's eye-rolling.

Bad enough hearing family parrot that "anti PC" crap when it's just a-holes complaining about being called a-holes for their opinions.

 

[hellblazer103]

who knows, i keep seeing these kind of comments in regards to this show, it's eye-rolling.

Bad enough hearing family parrot that "anti pc" crap when it's just a-holes complaining about being called a-holes for their opinions.

" we gotta do sumthin'...


About da liberal *******s,

who wanna take away our rights,

and take our guns !!! "

 

[UnknownCriminal]

Who knows, I keep seeing these kind of comments in regards to this show, it's eye-rolling.

Bad enough hearing family parrot that "anti PC" crap when it's just a-holes complaining about being called a-holes for their opinions.

What I think they mean is that the producers felt they couldn't do a show about the Punisher nowadays without dragging a discussion about gun control into it or making his vigilantism more personal and less black and white. I think the people complaining about that mean they feel the producers shoehorned that stuff into the show just out of fear they would seem to be glorifying or condoning what Frank does. I'll admit that I initially thought the show was headed towards the direction of a forced, hypocritical message as well, but by the end of it I thought it was actually handled quite well and it definitely served both a character and narrative purpose within the season. It effectively discusses the subject and how it relates to the character without taking any obvious stances. Still, some people seem to be mad about the show even questioning Frank's motivations and actions to begin with.

 

[MurkeNyou]

What I think they mean is that the producers felt they couldn't do a show about the Punisher nowadays without dragging a discussion about gun control into it or making his vigilantism more personal and less black and white. I think the people complaining about that mean they feel the producers shoehorned that stuff into the show just out of fear they would seem to be glorifying or condoning what Frank does. I'll admit that I initially thought that stuff was headed towards the direction of a forced, hypocritical message as well, but by the end of it I thought it was actually handled quite well and it definitely served both a character and narrative purpose within the season. It effectively discusses the subject and how it relates to the character without taking any obvious stances. Still, some people seem to be mad about the show questioning Frank's motivations and actions.

Your kidding right? This "argument" about the character has been going on since the 80's. People put what they want into the character, but it's telling when gun-nut people act like a character like Castle would support their worldview. When more often or not, they'd be the ones being shot at. The Chris Kyle dirtbags are the ones that tried to make The Punisher a superhero, when he's always been just a murderous vigilante.

 

[hellblazer103]

What I think they mean is that the producers felt they couldn't do a show about the Punisher nowadays without dragging a discussion about gun control into it or making his vigilantism more personal and less black and white. I think the people complaining about that mean they feel the producers shoehorned that stuff into the show just out of fear they would seem to be glorifying or condoning what Frank does. I'll admit that I initially thought the show was headed towards the direction of a forced, hypocritical message as well, but by the end of it I thought it was actually handled quite well and it definitely served both a character and narrative purpose within the season. It effectively discusses the subject and how it relates to the character without taking any obvious stances. Still, some people seem to be mad about the show even questioning Frank's motivations and actions to begin with.

Seriously, it's not like Frank is ripping people apart limb by limb for assuming his gender.

 

[WeaponXCII]

To echo the sentiments of most other commenters, I found The Punisher to be an amazing show- in fact, I might even go so far as to say that it was nearly perfect. It probably goes without saying, but I binged the series (which might make my recollection of things a bit hazy), so I think I’m going in for a second viewing soon in order to appreciate it more deeply. The pacing- perhaps one of the most significant criticisms of the Netflix shows- was very well done; I never felt bored for a single moment. I will say, however, that although the show is solid throughout, as Heretic mentioned, episode 9 was were things really went to the next level. Later episodes (such as episode 12 I believe, where Frank takes out an enemy by hanging him, and also another in which Castle tortures the enemy for information), really serve to showcase that “tactical torturer” that the Punisher is, which really serves to set him apart from other characters, whether also from Marvel or other media. Marvel usually has a villain problem, but that’s not the case here with Rawlins and Russo- the latter of which provides the most purely disturbing scene in the entire MCU, gently sponging off the blood of Stein from Madani, after he himself brutalized the agent. I went into the show expecting more of a straight shooter (it is the Punisher, after all), but after some reflection, I appreciated the engaging plot, and realize that thirteen episodes of near-incessant guns and gore would have been monotonous. The only notable flaw was the ancillary characters, who I think possibly could have benefitted from less screen time. Let’s face it: nobody watches a show about the Punisher for a Homeland Security agent. All in all, a tremendous start, and I can’t wait for The Punisher’s sophomore season.

 

[UnknownCriminal]

Your kidding right? This "argument" about the character has been going on since the 80's. People put what they want into the character, but it's telling when gun-nut people act like a character like Castle would support their worldview. When more often or not, they'd be the ones being shot at. The Chris Kyle dirtbags are the ones that tried to make The Punisher a superhero, when he's always been just a murderous vigilante.

I'm not and I know. That's just what I think those comments about the show being too "politically correct" actually mean. Some people feel the showrunners were forced to touch on the subject of gun control and make Frank a bit "softer" and more relatable. Which, to a certain extent, is true. They certainly did. I still think it worked within the context of the show, made sense for the narrative and that it turned out to be a good interpretation of the character, but some people are feeling the show didn't do the character justice and are blaming "PC culture" for it. Come to think of it, I don't think the issue those people have is with the show questioning Frank's actions and motivations, but maybe with the character himself questioning his actions and motivations.

 

[Spiderdevil]

This series wasn't really a Punisher series. Sorry, but it wasn't.

What kind of ending was that for this season anyway? IMHO, that's something you could do if you want to give some type of ending to Frank Castle's character. As unrealistic as it is for the government to just let him go scotfree.

Here's the problem now. There's no need for The Punisher to exist anymore. He's cleaned the table for everything. His whole motivation was taking down the people behind his family's death. Now he's given that up. He accepted the government's deal, and he's going to group therapy. He said he doesn't have a war to fight anymore.

The whole point of The Punisher is that his war is against crime itself. As irrational as that is. But whoever said Frank Castle was rational. But this show changed all that around. He's not really interested in dispensing justice to the other drug cartels or mafia bosses.

So where does that really leave us for a second season? Nowhere.

I think the issue is that the writers and producers were scared to go that far with Frank Castle. His revenge was focused on the government conspiracy to give him a fixed end to his journey, so he can let go of it at some point. He basically does twice. At the start and at the end. I think Hollywood was too scared that they would be glorifying this type of character who just wants to murder criminals instead of beating them up and see them get arrested so they will eventually get back out and cause more trouble.

Unfortunately, I fear we will never get the "real" Punisher anymore at this point.

The soap opera stuff this season was mind-numbing. I saw what happened with Sarah and Frank coming a mile away. First of all, he's a wanted fugitive playing house with them. He's well known in New York. I refuse to believe Micro's family never saw his face before. And then you have Sarah kissing Frank, which was so telegraphed that would happen at some point.

The Lewis Wilson subplot was awful and basically went nowhere. Had nothing to do with the central plot really, and Frank had no connection to that character either.

Person of Interest was a superior Punisher series to this one really.

The other issue is the show really overdid it with Frank's beatings. He comes back from near death in multiple episodes and then he's up and about with just some cuts and bruises in a matter of hours.

The ending was stupid as hell, there is no way Homeland and the CIA is gonna set free someone like Frank Castle, the same Castle who was a heavily wanted just a week ago, whose name and picture they plastered all over news

There is no way a hotshot like Dinah Madani with a promising career in homeland would harbour a known vigilante and criminal like Punisher, [BLACKOUT]and c'mon, gettting treated at her home by father, and blood being donated by Micro directly into his blood stream!! WTF!![/BLACKOUT]

It would have been much better had the season ended after episode 12 with Billy Russo getting away and the final shot being Frank making a mission impossible esque houdini disappreance act from a hospital

 

[Dasher10]

Why are people complaining about the show being, "politically correct." It didn't feel like a preachy message show to me.

It is because the Liebermans were Jewish or because the show discussed veterans issues and/or gun control? Those seem like stupid reasons. I didn't have a problem with the show's politics. I felt like Daredevil's politics lent a bit too far to the right and Luke Cage may have gone a bit too far to the left but Punisher didn't seem like it really went out of it's way to engage in polemics aside from, "corruption in the government is bad and so is terrorism."

 

[UnknownCriminal]

Why are people complaining about the show being, "politically correct." It didn't feel like a preachy message show to me.

It is because the Liebermans were Jewish or because the show discussed veterans issues and/or gun control? Those seem like stupid reasons. I didn't have a problem with the show's politics. I felt like Daredevil's politics lent a bit too far to the right and Luke Cage may have gone a bit too far to the left but Punisher didn't seem like it really went out of it's way to engage in polemics aside from, "corruption in the government is bad and so is terrorism."

It's the extra attention given to the PTSD ridden veteran subplot and the gun control discussion. And I'm guessing it's also because they made Frank a bit less sure of himself and of what his "mission" is. I also didn't think it was preachy at all, but I'll admit it could've been very easily. In the end, I think it was handled very well. What I think is rubbing those people the wrong way is not how they handled the subject, but just that it was included in the show. That's already enough to trigger a response. They think the subject was shoehorned in just to please the PC crowd and that's why we don't get to watch Frank murdering people left and right without any questioning or a hint of remorse. It's kind of an automatic "keep your real world musings out of my shoot-shoot bang-bang action, please" reaction. Personally, I think people are nuts if they were thinking they could've made this show today without touching on those subjects.

Well, at least that's what I think it is. Who knows?

 

[rogue trooper]

A solid and powerful first entry. Started off a little slow, but boy did the wheels get going after episode 4. I really appreciated the cues they took from "Welcome Back, Frank", and probably a bit from "Return To The Big Nothing" stories. Bernthal came back just as sharp as in DD season 2, if not more. It was quite a different approach to Billy Russo but it worked. I loved Micro.

 

[Dasher10]

It's the extra attention given to the PTSD ridden veteran subplot and the gun control discussion. And I'm guessing it's also because they made Frank a bit less sure of himself and of what his "mission" is. I also didn't think it was preachy at all, but I'll admit it could've been very easily. In the end, I think it was handled very well. What I think is rubbing those people the wrong way is not how they handled the subject, but just that it was included in the show. That's already enough to trigger a response. They think the subject was shoehorned in just to please the PC crowd and that's why we don't get to watch Frank murdering people left and right without any questioning or a hint of remorse. It's kind of an automatic "keep your real world musings out of my shoot-shoot bang-bang action, please" reaction. Personally, I think people are nuts if they were thinking they could've made this show today without touching on those subjects.

Well, at least that's what I think it is. Who knows?

I feel like a LOT of those same people are going to be upset if we see Kathryn O'Brien, Rachel Alves or Lynn Michaels in Season 2. If you start tossing a female sidekick in, expect a strong backlash. (Keep in mind that I really want O'Brien to show up in Season 2 and Alves in Season 4.)