gliderpilotgirl said:
I love a good, thoughtful debate.
which of these qualities does MJ not have?
MJ has them all. But Gwen had them
first. As has oft been mentioned, MJ has essentially become Gwen, once they decided she was marrying material for Peter.
What the trouble is, is that over a twenty plus year period, these traits aren't so much aspects of her character, as traits she pulls out when needed, much like in the old Batman TV show he'd pull impossible things from his utility belt.
What I'm saying is that MJ should have remained as she was, and allowed to be a three dimensional character with flaws. The thing about Spidey that's made him such an icon is his ability to fail, pick himself up and triumph. But MJ isn't allowed to be that way.
I'd argue it takes and makes more bravery and strength to come from a past like MJ did than from a loving home like Gwen did.
MJ doesn't have a difficult past. It isn't like she was actually abused, or fell into drugs or crime or anything. Her parents fought. The fact that 50% of marriages end in divorce tells you that this isn't a rarity.
And the fact is,
we don't know if Gwen had a loving home. We know she had a close relationship with her father- but we know nothing about her relationship with her mother. Again, we don't know that her mother died. She might have walked out. She might have been killed. She might have been involved in crime in some way. We don't know. We also don't know if Gwen and her Dad always had a great relationship. This might have only come about in recent years.
AND As Fangrl06 said, it takes more bravery to know the truth and live with it and know, than to be oblivious, in regards to his secret identity.
Why is that? Plain and simple- Which would be more hurtful to you-
1. Your boyfriend/Husband disappears during a time of crisis, and you don't know why.
2. Same boyfirend/Husaband disappears, and you know he's the guy in the mask kicking the crap out of the criminal.
Which is harder to maintain love?
Many of these stories HAVE been done with MJ.
1) done. Parallel Lives.ASM 257? ( yes, I knew it was a retcon. So what? it didn't fundamentally change anything from before. Unlike Sin's Past )
Oh it changed ALOT. It made Peter and MJ's relationship that much more puzzling- if you go back to the previous source material. There were numerous instances when Peter needed a friend and understanding because of his predicaments. If MJ knew he was Spidey, she had to be an out and out ***** not to support him. And it also made somethings easier- Again no worries for Pete when he had to dash and make the change.
But worse- the fact that fans accepted such a deep and interwoven retcon, made it clear to Marvel that they could now do and say anything- which is why we have things like Sins Past, The Other and so forth.
2) nope. But if it had been done with Gwen, we would have gotten one good story out of it, and would be back in the same place we are now. Writer's complaining of not wanting to write a marriage. DO you think Gwen and Peter would have been exempt from this?
Well, yes I do. Which is why I'm raising these points. You see, the problem with the Peter-MJ marriages is that MJ only really effects one side of Peter's life. Yes, she can be a hostage against Spidey but that's about it.
What I'm suggesting with Gwen is that she could effect both sides of Peter's life. The superhero
and everyday side.
Of course it still comes down to execution. A bad writer/editor team could (And has) ruin the best of concepts.
And yes- there could certainly be a way to make the Peter-MJ marriage better. But only so much.
3) They did some stories with MJ and her Dad.
But are they meaningful to Spider-Man's life? Not really. It's just a personal struggle for MJ, which yes, spills over to Peter because he loves her.
Let's remember- that Spidey is a superhero. A crime fighter. The excitement in the stories is generated in his dealing with CRIME. Regarding her mother- there's so much open ground that a really good writer could generate something great from it. I mean she could be the female version of the Kingpin for all we know.
4) ok, I grant you that one.
Thanks.
5) Was there any indication she wanted to be a cop? or that they would have made her one? She was studying science. Not criminal law. And if I recall right, that possibility was brought up with Jean de Wolffe.
There wasn't any indication that she wanted to do
anything. We didn't even know what type of science she was interested in.
But as to hints that she'd become a cop? Plenty. Her bravery. Her pluck. Her sense of justice (the protests, defending Peter). Her hero cop dad dying in the line of duty (Yeah, he was retired, but that didn't stop him from doing what a cop does). And, let's say she survived the Goblin's attack. That would likely make her more prone to see criminals brought down.
As for Jean DeWolfe- yeah, but Peter didn't love her. In fact, she was always portrayed as being rather butch. But he loved Gwen. And it's a differnt thing his courting a woman that's already a cop versus a woman who chooses to become one during the course of the relationship.
Sure there is that cop angle. As I just said, what evidence do you have of her wanting to become a cop? If you have some I haven't seen..then by all means say so.
See above.
The potential for an affair is also there with MJ. Just in her world.
I know. That's what I was saying. That these types of stories,
which have been done with MJ, could be done with Gwen, even though I don't like them.
Kids, Danger, has been done.
I know. I'm saying that they could easily have been done with Gwen as well.
The fault of MJ being unable to conront these issues is entirely the writers. They refused to let MJ keep her baby. Who says Gwen would have been exampt? Danger? been done.
Like I said- I know these things have been done with MJ. Again I'm saying they could be done with Gwen as well. But the difference is, that even if Gwen lost a baby for example, she could return to action in the Spidey stories, whereas MJ just goes back to modeling or whatever.
And If recall correctly, MJ has faced danger many times, and with considerably more guts then Gwen ever showed. ( Chameleon with a baseball bat, those crooks with the electrical wiring, and she shot the Green Goblin!!)
More guts than Gwen? Gwen is the one that was always slugging people for pissing her off. She stood up to the Kingpin, Spidey and Kraven. she didn't even freak out when kidnapped by that 25 ft monster Gog. I'm sure if she had opportunites like having a gun or a baseball bat handy, she'd use them. And being a Cop's only child, she'd likely be able to use them quite effectively.
You know what, Gwen was a very good character. Better in the beginning, before she was made an innocent and helpless. She would have made Peter a good wife too. But I just don't think their marriage would have ended up any better than Peter and MJ's has, owing to the writers.
Again, it's all in the writing. I've always maintained that Peter & MJ's marriage, handled well- could be great. All it takes is some creativity and understanding of relationships, which Marvel's staff clearly don't have. As Tom Beland says not allowing MJ to have a real character has been her undoing. Which is the same thing people say about Gwen. So it isn't the character, but how they're portrayed.
But Gwen was NEVER portrayed as being helpless. Please point out an example of this. In the end, I'm saying Gwen offered more material to the writers. How well they'd have made use of it is another story.
