The Dark Knight The Realism Debate thread

[Mr. Socko]

Catwoman

 

[Warhammer]

See, when you're low and down, and got a frown, all you need is a little Maria.

Spoiler

Hunter is so going to send me a PM telling me to stop posting Maria pics here.

 

[Monster]

See, when you're low and down, and got a frown, all you need is a little Maria.

Spoiler

Hunter is so going to send me a PM telling me to stop posting Maria pics here.

What about me in a wet suit, how does that sound?

 

[Warhammer]

Let's see that, then!

 

[Victarion]

Hey guys.

I was one of those that moaned about Joker not being bleach white. After thinking about it, I don't really know why I expected him to be. I mean, the stuff we've seen of Crane has him in what looks like a business suit, rather than the classic appearance of a torn straitjacket. Sam Raimi liked to draw parallels in his movies between Spider-Man and his villains. I don't know if Mr. Nolan's trying to do this, but with his take on the Joker, I believe he is.

It would seem that just as Batman is an average joe that puts on a costume and is a symbol for the law enforcement of Gotham (even if they don't know it yet), Joker is the complete opposite-a madman that puts on a costume and appears to be a symbol for the underworld of Gotham. In BB3, I think Two-Face will be somewhere in between the two extremes.

Just my .02

-Morzan

 

[evilskillz]

Hey guys.

I was one of those that moaned about Joker not being bleach white. After thinking about it, I don't really know why I expected him to be. I mean, the stuff we've seen of Crane has him in what looks like a business suit, rather than the classic appearance of a torn straitjacket. Sam Raimi liked to draw parallels in his movies between Spider-Man and his villains. I don't know if Mr. Nolan's trying to do this, but with his take on the Joker, I believe he is.

It would seem that just as Batman is an average joe that puts on a costume and is a symbol for the law enforcement of Gotham (even if they don't know it yet), Joker is the complete opposite-a madman that puts on a costume and appears to be a symbol for the underworld of Gotham. In BB3, I think Two-Face will be somewhere in between the two extremes.

Just my .02

-Morzan

I like how you framed your argument. Very well said man. To make the Joker a permanent white alien, makes him a cartoon character which doesn't fit into Nolan's world. This will be a very interesting and crazy joker, yes he's a man. I think some fanboys don't want to accept that the Joker is just a human that doesn't need to go through a white transformation to be THE JOKER.

When you go through a transformation process, it is very comic bookish. It is trying to get kids to identify a character as being beyond human. You don't need to do that in a movie, it works much better the way Nolan is doing it.

 

[Victarion]

Why thank you.

If anyone who is pro bleached/permanent white skin reads this, don't think I'm anti, or whatever you would. Either interpretation works for me because I'm just excited about all this mayhem the Clown Prince is gonna be perpetrating.

 

[evilskillz]

Why thank you.

If anyone who is pro bleached/permanent white skin reads this, don't think I'm anti, or whatever you would. Either interpretation works for me because I'm just excited about all this mayhem the Clown Prince is gonna be perpetrating.

Exactly. At the end of the day, this is going to be a fun movie to watch. I really hope people aren't looking at what color Joker's neck is, because they will have lost the ability to watch a movie. Let's face it, this is a great character and I can't wait to see some intense scenes between Joker and Batman. Based on the leaked pics, we have at least two intense scenes between them. I hope Nolan saved his best Batman vs Villain scenes for this film.

 

[Bright Knight]

I guess she's hot... If you're into hookers.

I trust Jow and Miranda, I really really do...

But I just don't see it. It's blind faith, believing in the permawhite...

They should have just cast an Irish person, we're ALL permawhite this summer. No sun, just rain.

 

[ganstapappa]

i like nolans take on the batman world. batman is a superhero with no powers what so ever, i think he should take a real approach to the charecter and that means putting him in the real world. in the real world certain things dont happen like they do in comics. i have no problem with the new joker. when you watch the news i dont think youll ever hear someone fell into a vat of green chemicals and came out with a huge smile, white skin, green hair, and ruby lips because it just wont happen. if the jokers gonna b perma white something neegs to be added to this or something entirely new must happen. change isnt bad just different. gray jump suit and soft foldable mask was batman 4 years until 89 when he had all black armor and a helmet like mask. that was a big change and it worked amazingly so i dont see this new look for joker being bad especially if its supposed to happen in the real world.

 

[Conebone69]

F*** this realism bullcrap.
Maria.

:heart:

Who is that?

 

[Ibn]

That flesh tone that seems to be coming up from his white face better be another layer of facepaint, or I'm rioting. Take away his bleached skin, HE AIN'T THE ****IN JOKER! He's some lunatic ******* who dressed up as a clown. Could have been any other jackass. And his hair sucks.

 

[CaptainClown]

angry lil one aren't you.

 

[CristoTheSecond]

The Joker is a supernatural being. Take away his permanent white skin and he's just a crazy man with some face paint. But, his white skin and his sadistic personality makes him the Devil of all comic books. You can't kill the Joker, you can't hurt the Joker, and you're gonna have a hell of a time trying to stop the Joker.

 

[Agentsands77]

Take away his permanent white skin and he's just a crazy man with some face paint.

Going by that description, then, the Joker in the comics is just a crazy man with dyed skin. :::shrugs:::

You can't kill the Joker, you can't hurt the Joker, and you're gonna have a hell of a time trying to stop the Joker.

I don't see how that's changed in THE DARK KNIGHT. We have a villain who's laughing as Batman beats him up in an interrogation room. That's the Joker.

 

[CristoTheSecond]

Going by that description, then, the Joker in the comics is just a crazy man with dyed skin. :::shrugs:::


I don't see how that's changed in THE DARK KNIGHT. We have a villain who's laughing as Batman beats him up in an interrogation room. That's the Joker.

No, his skin cannot be changed. It will be forever damaged. That's the whole point.

 

[Agentsands77]

No, his skin cannot be changed. It will be forever damaged. That's the whole point.

Obviously. But why is that a core attribute of the character? I don't think it is... I think it's more of a side detail.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer a permanent look to make-up, but I don't feel as though anything major about the character has been lost in the process. Is he still a sadistic criminal genius who is the greatest threat Batman will ever face? Yes. Does he still utilize a sick sense of humor? Yes. Does he still look like a demented clown? Yes.

If anything, the loss of the Lazarus pits in BEGINS is a far bigger change to Ra's character than the loss of permanent skin is to the character of the Joker, and most fans were cool with that one.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ya I missed the Lazarus pitt

 

[CristoTheSecond]

But Ra's isn't iconic.

Joker is.

 

[rpenguin]

I really hope Nolan stops dropping the use of the word realism. Too many people misinterpret it.

 

[gwynplaine]

If you want realism go see an Ozu or a Bergman movie, not a film where a dude runs around dressed as a bat chasing a crazyass clown.

 

[CaptainClown]

Oh ya I hate how people throw around realism too. Drives me nuts

 

[rpenguin]

If you want realism go see an Ozu or a Bergman movie, not a film where a dude runs around dressed as a bat chasing a crazyass clown.

cars driving up the sides of buildings, shark repellent, mutant manpenguins, boots that turn into skates.

nolan's simply removing all the fantastical ideas that have plagued previous batman movies. THAT'S Nolan's realism.

 

[Agentsands77]

But Ra's isn't iconic.

Joker is.

So? Permawhite skin isn't one of the more "iconic" Joker attributes. Iconic attributes are the one that jo blo knows, and plenty of jo blos think the Joker wears make-up, even after B89.

 

[Rorschach II]

The Joker is a supernatural being. Take away his permanent white skin and he's just a crazy man with some face paint. But, his white skin and his sadistic personality makes him the Devil of all comic books. You can't kill the Joker, you can't hurt the Joker, and you're gonna have a hell of a time trying to stop the Joker.

Very well said.

Of course, Nolan doesn't read the comics so he didn't grow up with the character the way most of us have so therefore he doesn't give a ****.

The conversation between him and somebody at WB who knows about the comics (maybe Goyer?) probably went something like this:

Knowledgeable Person: Hey, Chris, you know fans are expecting you to give them the Joker in the sequel after that little tease you gave them at the end of Begins.

Nolan: Yes I know. But can I please have another vest?

K.P.: Um...yeah, sure. We'll get to that. But uh, back to the sequel. Who were you thinking of having as the villain?

Nolan: I don't know, what are my options? Aside from having a new vest, of course.

K.P.: Well the studio is really pushing for the Joker.

Nolan: What's his story then?

K.P.: Well he's a married father with a background in chemistry who tries to make ends meet as a comedian but can't so he turns to crime, and in one of his heists at a chemical plant - during which he learns that his wife and child have been killed - The Batman unintentionally knocks him into a vat of chemicals that make his skin pale, his lips red, and his hair green.

Nolan: Wait...Batman creates him by knocking him into a vat of chemicals?

K.P.: Yes, actually it's one of the most well-known and adored villain origins of all time, Alan Moore --

Nolan: Horse ****.

K.P.: Wait, what?

Nolan: Horse ****. We'll have him be a bank robber who likes dressing up as a clown.

K.P.: But --

Nolan: Now where's my goddamned vest?