The Dark Knight The Realism Debate thread

[Mr. Socko]

He's a twisted criminal before the bath, the chemical accident leads to him snapping and also gaining a greater obsession for Batman, for scarring him. I explained how I think it can work and it plays.

So we wouldn't see the real full-on JOKER until that happens?

Yeah...If that's the case, we wouldn't really get JOKER until the chemical bath happens. But hell, this is all speculation with no clue as to what will really happen.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

But we get the chracterstic of his criminal mind. Which is more than enough. I dont get why people cant put two and two together on this. And again, we know a fair bit from the spoilers and on set reports....

 

[fcrowelle06]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7SSdvXAXbQ

tell me what you think of the different laugh at the end, Im interested in opinions

 

[Gianakin_]

Like I said when I first saw it: Great Hamill impersonation, proves why Hamill wouldn't work for the films.

 

[CaptainClown]

ya, it doesn't seem to work. I think its a wonderful voice. but if i saw someone doing that in person. I dunno

 

[TheLongestDay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7SSdvXAXbQ

tell me what you think of the different laugh at the end, Im interested in opinions

Very well done! Excellent impression-tho i prefer heaths Joker voice for the movie (and Bales Bats) - i would love to see an animated "nolanverse" movie using conroy and Hamill

 

[Gotham]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7SSdvXAXbQ

tell me what you think of the different laugh at the end, Im interested in opinions

Heath has a much more distinct, recognizable voice about him. That trailer really didn't awaken any interest.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Very well done! Excellent impression-tho i prefer heaths Joker voice for the movie (and Bales Bats) - i would love to see an animated "nolanverse" movie using conroy and Hamill

That wouldn't be the Nolanverse, it would be the Timm/Dini-verse, who Conroy and Hamill was synonymous with. Just like you couldn't have the Timm/Dini-verse with Bale and Heath.

 

[TheLongestDay]

That wouldn't be the Nolanverse, it would be the Timm/Dini-verse, who Conroy and Hamill was synonymous with. Just like you couldn't have the Timm/Dini-verse with Bale and Heath.

I didnt mean with the animation style of the Timm/Dini-verse,just a new type of animation styled after the world of Batman Nolan has created-with Conroy and Hamill.

Imagine an "animatrix" style project,that fits into continuity with the Nolanverse,but with different talent taking on seperate stories.

 

[CaptainClown]

thats what they are doing, but as far as we know not with Conroy or Hamil

 

[TheLongestDay]

thats what they are doing, but as far as we know not with Conroy or Hamil

I didnt know it was going to be a series of stories done with different talent,i just thought it was one animated move to maybe bridge the gap between begins and dark knight.

either way i love that idea,and i would love different voice actors just to make it more fun-not cuz i think anyone could out-do the other.I liked how just for the one episode of BTAS they had Michael Ironside voice bats

 

[CaptainClown]

Oh, I guess I am getting mixed up. For a while I was thinking it was series of films by different artists. I am probably wrong though.

 

[TheLongestDay]

nope looks like you were right-a little digging and heres what i found on AICN:

"Set in the period between BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT, this brand new adventure follows BATMAN as he unravels a mystery over six original stories done in the style of Japanese Anime. Each of the six original stories has been written by a highly respected screenwriter or comic book creator. The talent includes Academy Award nominee Josh Olsen (The History of Violence), screenwriter of the BLADE films and BATMAN BEGINS David Goyer, and famed comic book writer Brian Azzarello, among others. The Batman Anime DVD is viewed as a perfect companion piece to BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT. The original stories introduce a number of classic characters from the DC Comics BATMAN universe as well as following up on characters and storylines that were introduced in BATMAN BEGINS."



does this mean different anime styles and voice actors too? who knows?

 

[Agentsands77]

So essentially, this is a Batman version of THE ANIMATRIX. Cool.

 

[thegameq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7SSdvXAXbQ

tell me what you think of the different laugh at the end, Im interested in opinions

That was fricken great!! The real Joker. It sounded both funny and yet disturbing.

 

[SuperDaniel]

My views on this whole realism debate is...

Well..i dont think Nolan`s Batman is the end all, be all of Batman. Batman Begins had a great story but i thought they exagerated this realism aspect too much.

Gotham City is not supposed to look like a normal city. It is supposed to look scary, just like the character.

Burton`s city was scary and imagine what they could do with today`s special effects. C`mon. No gargoyles, no gothic theme in Gotham? WTf...

DC characters arent supposed to be realistic.

Yes, you have to believe the story is real but put everything into a reality thing just takes away the fun of the characters to me.

Superman and all the characters are more..lets say...fanstastical... than Batman but taking away the fantastic elements of Batman like the look of Gotham and the Batmobile, the white skin of Joker,etc just takes away a little bit of the fun, IMO.

The story had to take itself seriously and that is the most important thing.You have to believe whats happening is real but not base everything in reality and get an explanation for everything. It makes the audience look dumb.

 

[Gianakin_]

The story had to take itself seriously. You have to believe whats happening is real but not base everything in reality and get an explanation for everything. It makes the audience look dumb.

Dumb? In what way?

 

[thegameq]

My views on this whole realism debate is...

Well..i dont think Nolan`s Batman is the end all, be all of Batman. Batman Begins had a great story but i thought they exagerated this realism aspect too much.

Gotham City is not supposed to look like a normal city. It is supposed to look scary, just like the character.

Burton`s city was scary and imagine what they could do with today`s special effects. C`mon. No gargoyles, no gothic theme in Gotham? WTf...

DC characters arent supposed to be realistic.

Yes, you have to believe the story is real but put everything into a reality thing just takes away the fun of the characters to me.

Superman and all the characters are more..lets say...fanstastical... than Batman but taking away the fantastic elements of Batman like the look of Gotham and the Batmobile, the white skin of Joker,etc just takes away a little bit of the fun, IMO.

The story had to take itself seriously and that is the most important thing.You have to believe whats happening is real but not base everything in reality and get an explanation for everything. It makes the audience look dumb.

I was with you until the last sentence. t:

But yes it really takes alot of the fun out of the material when you take away so many of the things that made it great in the first place.....frankly, I don't think Nolan's films are really for the fans anyway. They're clearly aimed moreso at pleasing the average audience--but the mistake, as usual, is assuming they know what kind of film audiences want.

Honestly, it does make one wonder if this latest franchise would have done better with audiences with a more stylized fantasy approach ala 300/Sin City--but backed with a serious tone.

 

[terry78]

There are two types of directions writers take with Batman. Whether it's for cartoons, video games, movies, or whatever media they choose. They either go the gritty, realistic route or they take the more goth, stylized route. Depends on what they choose to do. Those are the two types of ways Bats is portrayed, and neither is wrong.

 

[Gianakin_]

I was with you until the last sentence. t:

But yes it really takes alot of the fun out of the material when you take away so many of the things that made it great in the first place.....frankly, I don't think Nolan's films are really for the fans anyway. They're clearly aimed moreso at pleasing the average audience--but the mistake, as usual, is assuming they know what kind of film audiences want.

Honestly, it does make one wonder if this latest franchise would have done better with audiences with a more stylized fantasy approach ala 300/Sin City--but backed with a serious tone.

First I'd like to say that I don't think he made a mistake with the audiences. Regular viewers seem to like the film just fine.

Second, your suggestion about a 300 style is an interesting one, but I think 300 or Sin City did so well because it was about comic book characters, who however didn't wear masks or costumes. Batman, as a superhero might be considered as childish by many.
It is my opinion that a 300-level of stylization (a very high level if you ask me) would bring the opposite result for Batman, while keeping the character real (and I don't mean it the Nolan way, I also mean what Burton did, with an appropriate level of seriousness and stylization) is what makes people interested in Batman.
A direct Frank Miler-style Batfilm would be an interesting but VERY dangerous experiment, which imo would not work well on screen AND it would fail financially. I have my reasons for believing this (and 1-2 examples of what it looks like), I don't claim to know the exact result, but I've seen things that come very close and I honestly didn't like what I saw.

 

[thegameq]

There are two types of directions writers take with Batman. Whether it's for cartoons, video games, movies, or whatever media they choose. They either go the gritty, realistic route or they take the more goth, stylized route. Depends on what they choose to do. Those are the two types of ways Bats is portrayed, and neither is wrong.

mmmmmm.......I don't know if I've ever seen a realistic take on Batman other than Begins,....Burton's films doesn't count IMO. Please elaborate.

 

[terry78]

If they did it as a faux 1930's film noir like Sin City, it could be interesting, but it wouldn't have the depth that Nolan was trying to incorporate.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

The story had to take itself seriously and that is the most important thing.You have to believe whats happening is real but not base everything in reality and get an explanation for everything. It makes the audience look dumb.

This part of your post really makes you look dumb. The whole point of explaining everything is not to make the audience look dumb. And never once did I believe one of Burton's movies was real. With BB, honestly, sometimes I'm forget I'm watching a super hero movie. For me it's good, but I can understand how for others that would be a bad thing.

 

[terry78]

Honestly, I don't understand how any fan could want their comic movies that real. When I hear about this, i want to feel that same wonder a kid gets when he sees his favorite character on the screen finally realized. Yes, I'm going on 30, but I still want to see classic stuff from the comics. Not just in dialogue and angst, but in action.

 

[SuperDaniel]

This part of your post really makes you look dumb. The whole point of explaining everything is not to make the audience look dumb. And never once did I believe one of Burton's movies was real. With BB, honestly, sometimes I'm forget I'm watching a super hero movie. For me it's good, but I can understand how for others that would be a bad thing.

So if they explain everything to me it doesnt make me look dumb? That doesnt make any sense. I dont need to know where every wire and piece of cloth of the Batman costume comes from to get the point it is a military thing and it protects Batman in his fight on crime....

I meant that theres is a degree of realism u have to reach for. When u start removing the fantastical elements THAT are an integral part of the characters just to make things look more real, it just takes away a little bit of the fun for me.

Making Gotham not have the GOTHIC look, the gargoyles, The Batmobile without a Bat-motif, Joker not fall in a tank of acid and have permanent white skin and green hair,etc. These are IMPORTANT part of the characters to me.

Things WENT overboard with Batman Forever and Batman & Robin but that doesnt mean that the oscar nominated production design of Batman 89 was bad.

I want the comics to be FUN, fantastic and realistic. There has to be a middle term.

Batman TAS are to me the best interpretation of Batman. It has fantastical elements but with serious stories.