The Dark Knight The Realism Debate thread

[Rorschach II]

Genuinely curious: What exactly?

Surviving.

 

[TheLongestDay]

ah but unfortunately with the JLA film looming,we will get a look at yet another take on Batman a bit TOO soon lol

 

[TheLongestDay]

I thought the world of The Long Halloween was more Tim Burton-Gothic Art-deco than anything. Nolan's world is Year One.

I think comparisons can be drawn with visual styles but each artist and director creates there own.I wouldnt say Burtons Batman was in the Arkham Asylum realm-it was in the Burton realm...in which Gotham is a suburb of Halloween town

 

[AgentGraves!]

I like the way Nolan put it...now im paraphrasing here..."Always wanted to see such a fictional character in the real world...a hightend reality...." i get it man...

and i felt the same...what would it be like to have something that fictional function in the real world...what we see in BB is that.

 

[TheLongestDay]

too true! and thats the approach im in love with,and cant wait to see how the Joker character fits into that world

 

[Mr. Socko]

I thought the world of The Long Halloween was more Tim Burton-Gothic Art-deco than anything. Nolan's world is Year One.

Very true. I stand corrected.

 

[BubbaGump]

I think comparisons can be drawn with visual styles but each artist and director creates there own.I wouldnt say Burtons Batman was in the Arkham Asylum realm-it was in the Burton realm...in which Gotham is a suburb of Halloween town

Burton may have had his own realm, but there indeed similarities between Tim Sale's and B89's Gotham (architecture-wise and mood).

 

[TheLongestDay]

true,although the most common visual representation of Gotham in the books is closer to the one that Nolan used.

One of the many things i love about the Batman character is that he can be put into more surreal and gothic settings-and then into the very real,and still be interesting and relevant

 

[Gianakin_]

Burton's world was in the visual realm of Arkham Asylum. Nolan's world is in the visual realm of The Long Halloween.

There are several interpretations of Batman, this is just one of them. Enjoy it for what it is, stop hoping it becomes a complete fantasy film. That may happen one day, but for now, that's not how Batman on film is. Nolan's placed him in a gritty realistic version of Gotham and this is his vision. I think it's going great, just sitting back and enjoying the ride. Once Nolan's trilogy is over, we will get a different take, and after that, another.

Amen.

 

[Gianakin_]

Surviving.

If you compare Batman's Rogues Gallery and Spiderman's, analogically they have the same level of danger to face. So, I disagree, Batman hasn't had more unbelievable stuff to do, especially when Peter has died a couple of times and has been brought back to life.

 

[Fenrir]

Burton may have had his own realm, but there indeed similarities between Tim Sale's and B89's Gotham (architecture-wise and mood).

I think Nolan's vision of Batman has greater visual resemblance with Frank Miller's Year One and DKR - both the comics have very little (if any) gothic undertones and Gotham's portrayal in it is very much like an urban wasteland.

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

I think Nolan's vision of Batman has greater visual resemblance with Frank Miller's Year One and DKR - both the comics have very little (if any) gothic undertones and Gotham's portrayal in it is very much like an urban wasteland.

I have to agree with you on this one.

Burton's Gotham was heavily, heavily stylized..

 

[TheLongestDay]

I have to agree with you on this one.

Burton's Gotham was heavily, heavily stylized..

thus making it less believable and relatable in my opinion

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

thus making it less believable and relatable in my opinion

Yes, it's difficult to believe in a city that looks like a real city, because it is a real city (Chicago).

and it's hard to relate because superheroes only work under ultra-stylized conditions.

 

[TheLongestDay]

Yes, it's difficult to believe in a city that looks like a real city, because it is a real city (Chicago).

and it's hard to relate because superheroes only work under ultra-stylized conditions.

eh?

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

eh?

i take it you must have been talking about Burton's cityscapes, and not Nolan's?

my apologies. too little descriptors and too much coffee.. :heart:

 

[TheLongestDay]

i take it you must have been talking about Burton's cityscapes, and not Nolan's?

my apologies. too little descriptors and too much coffee.. :heart:

lol no worries

 

[GoogleMe94]

i have just recently bought the batman anthology and watched the Schumacher movies in all there campy glory. ya know what? i liked them. i mean yes, i love all the batman movies, but i actually think i enjoyed schumachers fantasy gotham then i did nolans normal gotham. it was REALLY out there, but somehow i found it to be very fun escapism from the constantly dark stuff im so used to. granted, the films portray a very light batman, but i enjoyed that a bit more then the realistic stuff. i hope that there will be more fantasy in TDK then there was in BB. it was grounded, but TOO grounded for a superhero movie. they need to up the ante with the next film, for sure. the thing i like about the batman films is that each one is SO different from the last one. Returns and B89 may have many similiarities, but there are also many things that are different between them. same with the schumacher films. with the nolan films, it doesnt look like nolan wants to change it up too much, like hes making basically a BB2 rather then a different story or different feel. i dont want to see the same stuff we saw in BB, i want to see something different. perhaps a new part of gotham we never saw, or a new villians hideout we never saw, things like that. i dont want just a carbon copy of what we saw 2 years ago. the thing i dont like about many of the sequels, especially marvel ones, is that its just doin the same thing we saw last time. same city, same hero, no changes in enviroment, just a different villian and seeing how the hero deals with problems in their life. meh, been there done that, thats not very exciting to me. i like change, and the batman films have a track record of being different from the one that came before, so i hope this happens with TDK and a possible 3rd from nolan. i am getting a bit tired of the realism stuff though, batman isnt that realistic. more then superman and spiderman, yes, but hes still a supehero and it should be remembered that he is, or else you lose the fun. in BB, i didnt know whether i was watching a batman film or a crime drama. it had a serious identity crisis. i hope TDK does better at being what its supposed to be, a comic book film, not a Bio pic. still keeping with the darkness and depth, but a comic book movie nonetheless. burton did that, why not nolan?

 

[TheLongestDay]

i have just recently bought the batman anthology and watched the Schumacher movies in all there campy glory. ya know what? i liked them. i mean yes, i love all the batman movies, but i actually think i enjoyed schumachers fantasy gotham then i did nolans normal gotham. it was REALLY out there, but somehow i found it to be very fun escapism from the contantly dark stuff im so used to. granted the films portray a very light batman, but i enjoyed that a bit more then the realistic stuff. i hope that there will be more fantasy in TDK then there was in BB. it was grounded, but TOO grounded for a super hero movie. they need to up the ante with the next film, for sure. the thing i like about the batman films is that each one is SO different from the last one. Returns and B89 may have many similiarities, but there are also many things that are different between then. same with the schumacher films. with the nolan films, it doesnt look like nolan wants to change it up too much, like hes making basically a BB2 rather then a different story or different feel. i dont want to see the same stuff we saw in BB, i want to see something different. perhaps a new part of gotham we never saw, or a new villians hideout we never saw, things like that. i dont want just a carbon copy of what we saw 2 years ago. the thing i dont like about many of the sequels, especially marvel ones, is that its just doin the same thing we saw last time. same city, same hero, no changes in enviroment, jusy a different villian. meh, thats not very exciting to me. i like change, and the batman films have a track record of being different from the one that came before, so i hope this happens with TDK and a possible 3rd from nolan. i am getting a bit tired of the realism stuff though, batman isnt that realistic. more then superman and spiderman, yes, but hes still a supehero and should it should be remembered that he is, or else you lose the fun. in BB, i didnt know whether i was watching a batman film or a crime drama. it had a serious identity crisis. i hope TDK does better at being what its supposed to be, a comic book film, not a Bio pic.

i respect your opinion,but the fact is its not supposed to be a comic book movie,its a Batman movie-and Batman Begins is closer to the source material than any of the other movies which is what has drawn me to the character (and will continue to do so) my whole life.

Batman was never meant to be a fantasy character-what works so well with him is that hes human,and he does it all with focusing his willpower and human potential.

I never considerd the idea of a boy watching his parents die and choosing to dedicate his life prowling the streets putting his life in danger as a vigilante to be a fantasy story-more psychological and dramatic

 

[Mr. Socko]

I've also brought up the increased visual style before.

In Burton's second film, he took the visual flare, his Gotham, to the extreme. Huge slender but tall buildings, very dark and stylized. Schumacher also raised Gotham even higher in his second Bat-film. There was like double the neon, statues 10x as big, etc.

I think Nolan may also take a step up in Gotham(hopefully for the best unlike what Schumacher did). However, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Marvel part. The reason why the style for the Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic 4 films all have the same production design for landscape throughout all the films is because it takes place in a real city. They can't exaggerate the cityscape of the Marvel films because they live in real places, mostly New York. Batman has the luxury of not living in a real city, so his production design and city-scale/scape look can be drastically different every time if they want it to be.

 

[Samurai Pasta]

What the HELL is so great about Burton's Gotham? I liked certain parts of Returns, but Batman 89 was a bore to look at. Batman Begins' Gotham isn't great (it's Chicago basically) but I keep hearing how fantasy-like and surreal the Gotham is in Burton's. I'm not seeing it.

Mask of the Phantasm and Return of the Joker have the best Gotham City, hands down.

 

[GoogleMe94]

i respect your opinion,but the fact is its not supposed to be a comic book movie,its a Batman movie-and Batman Begins is closer to the source material than any of the other movies which is what has drawn me to the character (and will continue to do so) my whole life.

well, that is your opinion. i do not believe that BB was the most faithful or most enjoyable batman movie ever, but if you think so, thats fine. it IS a fanboy film after all, but im not one those ppl. batman begins got me back into batman, yes, but it actually made my respect go up for the burton films alot more, because i was kinda dissapoined with the new one. wasnt bad, but wasnt very good for me. but thats just my opinion.

Batman was never meant to be a fantasy character-what works so well with him is that hes human,and he does it all with focusing his willpower and human potential.

again, thats your opinion. for me, every superhero is a fantasy character, be it superpowered or not, its fantasy, for me at least. i am not an avid comic book reader, i just like to watch and enjoy the movies and be entertained by my favorite superhero. without the fantasy, i just dont really enjoy them all that much. this was the case with BB, it was too realistic and not enough fantasy stuff going on. closest it got was batman gliding, but ive seen that before i liked it better the first time around actually. again, its just my opinion.

I never considerd the idea of a boy watching his parents die and choosing to dedicate his life prowling the streets putting his life in danger as a vigilante to be a fantasy story-more psychological and dramatic

yes, i agree, those parts are not fantasy at all, its very traumatic real life event. but all that batman superhero stuff for the most part is pretty out there and "fantasy".

 

[GoogleMe94]

What the HELL is so great about Burton's Gotham? I liked certain parts of Returns, but Batman 89 was a bore to look at. Batman Begins' Gotham isn't great (it's Chicago basically) but I keep hearing how fantasy-like and surreal the Gotham is in Burton's. I'm not seeing it.

Mask of the Phantasm and Return of the Joker have the best Gotham City, hands down.

OK, i dont know whether to take this as personal opinion or flat out trolling, but i will say that burtons gotham ROCKED and the BTAS gotham was exactly the same as burtons gotham, only in a cartoon rather in reallife. thats where they gotr the influence, but thats pretty much a known fact.

 

[Mr. Socko]

What the HELL is so great about Burton's Gotham? I liked certain parts of Returns, but Batman 89 was a bore to look at. Batman Begins' Gotham isn't great (it's Chicago basically) but I keep hearing how fantasy-like and surreal the Gotham is in Burton's. I'm not seeing it.

Mask of the Phantasm and Return of the Joker have the best Gotham City, hands down.

Returns was more surreal. But what I loved about Batman 89/Anton Furst's designs was the art deco, Gotham had very crowded streets, very slander buildings, old school cars, gargoyles on the rooftops, and it even had a very industrial feel to it. It had a very 40s style as everyone wore trench coats and fedoras. Furst's designs did not look like any city in real life. They mixed several different styles and tones. I thought Anton's designs were the best.

I do agree about TAS having some really good designs, most of it was taken from '89.

 

[GoogleMe94]

I've also brought up the increased visual style before.

In Burton's second film, he took the visual flare, his Gotham, to the extreme. Huge slender but tall buildings, very dark and stylized. Schumacher also raised Gotham even higher in his second Bat-film. There was like double the neon, statues 10x as big, etc.

I think Nolan may also take a step up in Gotham(hopefully for the best unlike what Schumacher did). However, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Marvel part. The reason why the style for the Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic 4 films all have the same production design for landscape throughout all the films is because it takes place in a real city. They can't exaggerate the cityscape of the Marvel films because they live in real places, mostly New York. Batman has the luxury of not living in a real city, so his production design and city-scale/scape look can be drastically different every time if they want it to be.

TOTALLY agree, thank you for stating that. gotham is not a real city, but the marvel characters are always living in real city's, mainly in NYC.