The Trump Thread!!! - Part 1

[Matt Mortem]

Want to see how the climate has changed since 1980 in the GOP?

[YT]6gYHMwEdvIk[/YT]

Each one of those men would have been booed at the last Republican debate.

 

[InCali]

Want to see how the climate has changed since 1980 in the GOP?

[YT]6gYHMwEdvIk[/YT]

For a minute there I thought that was a debate between the 2 currently leading candidates for the GOP nomination: Donald Trump and Ben Carson. t:

 

[MaceB]

Occums Razor my friend.

What about it? The simplest explanation tends to be the right one....true. How does that apply to this situation? The simplest explanation for our large immigrant population is because they want a better life for their children, but can't get it legally due to poor immigration policy on behalf of the US.

Greatly?

Yep, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy.
"The 11.4 million undocumented immigrants currently living in the United States collectively paid $11.84 billion in state and local taxes in 2012. ITEP’s analysis finds their combined nationwide state and local tax contributions would increase by $845 million under full implementation of the administration’s 2012 and 2014 executive actions and by $2.2 billion under comprehensive immigration reform."
http://www.itep.org/immigration/

If they aren't lawbreakers, then we aren't talking about them.

So, the plan is to round up the older generation, deport them, and leave the kids to fend for themselves? That sounds like a great policy. And many people ARE talking about them. Conservatives got in an uproar over the dreamers.

Un-Christain? This isn't a What Would Jesus Do after school special. Religion has no place in this discussion.

Hey, you're not going to see me say that we should decide public policy on theology. I'm simply pointing out that many of those who are pro-deportation are also supposedly Christian. I'm just showing the disconnect there. Deporting and separating families is cruel. It's both an economic issue and a moral issue. As an atheist, I have a serious problem with hypocric, and how so many people don't tackle the moral question... probably because illegal immigrants don't look the way we do.

Again with the word great... Let's see the numbers. What would the tax revenue be for the undocumented workers? What does that say to the other immigrants that decided to wait and play by the rules?

This is making the perfect the enemy of the good. We shouldn't pass immigration reform because it might hurt the feelings of others? No. I'm sorry that it was an unfair situation, but that shouldn't stop us from making progress. And I'll say again... our immigration system is broken. You say, "well what about the people who did it the right way?" Well, most of those people are still waiting or have waited for over a decade. Reforming our system and allowing people to come in speedily and a fairly helps everyone; even those already here.

I say for every undocumented worker that is deported, two legal immigrants should be brought in! I promise you they will likely earn much more than the undocumented worker. More earned means more taxes. Plus we can keep the character card!

This is a very weird argument. Do you think it'd actually pass the conservative House? nope. And you're making a case for why nationalization helps the economy. What's the point in excluding a big chunk of people? Is it punishment? For me, I don't care about punishing people for doing something you or I would do for our families. And no.. you can't keep the character card if you deport and break up millions of families. That's like saying, "well we're drastically reducing slavery, so we can still keep the high ground." It doesn't work that way.

You do see what you are doing here right? You speak of what's fair and ignore that the people you are advocating for are hear because they cheated the system in some fashion. What about the immigrants that fill out the proper paper work? That leave when their visas expire? What about the family that waits patiently? What's fair for them?

Again, I'm not going to postpone progress in the effort for fairness. That's like saying, "well we can't go to electric cars, because there's a whole industry based on dirty SUVs." Well, I'm sorry.... those workers are going to have to change, and the country would be better off for it.
And no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a broken immigration system doesn't give very many options. We are in effect, forcing people to break the law similar to how we did with prohibition. Set up standards for entrance, but allow entrance to happen, and you won't have as many law breakers.

Are you going to use them to rebuild our infrastructure?

Sure.....?

lol wut

There was this event in Germany in the 1940s where a charismatic leader convinced people that foreigners were their biggest problem. Sound familiar? You can shrug it off all you want, but this sort of rhetoric is dangerous. It threatens to dehumanize these folks, when in reality, they are just trying to have a good home, a source of food for their kids, and medical care. They'd pay taxes if we gave them an avenue to do so. Calling them criminals only makes them go further into hiding and helps no one.

I'm pretty sure the United States has it's fair share of immigrants. And why is saying that the country is near capacity white privilege? You can't pursue the American dream illegally. This is a nation built on laws.

And if those laws are inhumane, they need to be adjusted. We do have a fair share of immigrants, because that's who we are! Our whole culture is built upon the idea of the melting pot; that IS the American Dream. That anyone regardless of circumstance or upbringing can make it with a little hard work. If we take that away from immigrants, then what we're saying is that the dream is only meant for us... which ostensibly kills it.
And come on... the country isn't near capacity? Are you serious? There are many states with small populations but a lot of land. Saying that we are all full is such hogwash.... and it's an example of making up silly arguments to rationalize your privileged status.
If it's a nation built on laws, then why don't we make some? Instead of saying.... well we need a wall.. why don't we actually reform policy to allow immigrants to earn citizenship in due time?

 

[Kane52630]

Match 13: Parker Wayne vs. Godzilla2000
Match 14: LibidoLoca vs. Urich Leeds
Match 15: ThePhantasm vs. Taarna
Match 16: the last son vs. ernesth100​

 

[DeadPresident]

What more need I know beyond the fact that the law is the law, they're foreigners who are breaking it...thus they are criminals who should have their asses kicked back where they came from? This is simple when you stop all the bleeding heart crap.

Spoken like a true layman with absolutely no grip on the scope of the topics he's trying to discuss.

You've shown an even narrower view on the topics at hand than Taarna, and that's quite an achievement.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Damn what a burn

 

[ThePhantasm]

 

[Black Narcissus]

I've been reading about picking strawberries and am wondering how many people have actually done it. I'm not talking about talking a drive up the coast for a day, picking some strawberries, going home, and making a pie or something. I'm talking about getting up at 4am, hopping on a bus, getting driven to the fields, and working at it all day under a very hot sun and under the threat of being fired if you don't get X amount of carriers or, in the case of stringbeans, 200 or so pounds a day.

I can tell you from personal experience that it is absolutely backbreaking labor; something that breaks you down and you get very, very little compensation. If and when you can't do it anymore, you're out. Adios. Thanks for everything and now go find another job.

Spend one summer walking in someone else's shoes and then come back and tell me about who should and shouldn't be willing to work the fields. There's no career path. Beat them up and throw them out is what happens.

I managed to get out, but not everyone else did.

I went to help my gfriends cousin for a day, just to to walk in their shoes for a bit. No way in hell most ''americans'' would last an entire week, yet alone years doing that. I was destroyed after one day.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

I went to help my gfriends cousin for a day, just to to walk in their shoes for a bit. No way in hell most ''americans'' would last an entire week, yet alone years doing that. I was destroyed after one day.

It's like going to the gym. It gets easier, you adapt. And I think part of the problem we in America have is that "most American's" are lazy as ****, myself included.

 

[DeadPresident]

I highly doubt picking strawberries exposed to the elements is psychologically or physically like going to gym in any way. It's a physically and psychologically unsustainable way to allow human beings to work unless it's structured in such a way that the conditions are conducive to keeping the laborers in good shape.

 

[Black Narcissus]

It's like going to the gym. It gets easier, you adapt. And I think part of the problem we in America have is that "most American's" are lazy as ****, myself included.

Yeah bro, it's like going to the gym. lol

I hope more ''Americans'' love that tagline and apply.

Eh, I'll just exit this thread....too much...

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

You guys are too much.

 

[DeadPresident]

Says the guy comparing a quick cardio or weight lifting session to physically grueling eight hour, minimum wage work days

 

[MaceB]

8 hour days in the sweltering sun. No minimum wage laws. No labor laws or protections. And we as Americans are the one's profiting from their slave labor. It's economic issue, true... but its just as much a moral issue in my mind.

 

[InCali]

It's like going to the gym. It gets easier, you adapt. And I think part of the problem we in America have is that "most American's" are lazy as ****, myself included.

Y'all are killin' me.

As a pre-teen and young teenager, I was able to adapt somewhat. As people get older, not so much. I have had some fairly serious lower back issues which I think are directly attributable to working in the fields (though, to be fair, I can't say this is the case for sure). Fortunately, I'm able to manage these my back problems by keeping my abdominal muscles in pretty good shape.

So, I have an exercise program for you. This'll be good for you and it's just like going to the gym only you get paid instead of paying them.

Stand with your feet about 2 to 2 1/2 feet apart and bend at the waist at about a 90 degree angle. Let your hands brush the ground between your legs. You can move your hands in any direction you like so it's FUN too. Now back up or move forward slowly while you're doing this. See? You can be creative too. Forward and back....Back and forward!! After about a half hour or so, go ahead and stretch a little bit. It's good to exercise while in different positions!! After about 2 hours, you can take a 15 minute break and after 4 hours you can take about a half hour or so for lunch. Now don't stretch for too long or take too long of a break or your "personal trainer" who is supervising you and your fellow exercisers from the chair under the umbrella will NOT be happy with you. Oh yes. To get the FULL benefit of this program, you should do this in the sun while the temperature is at least 90 degrees or it's just not the same.

After 8 hours or so, you're done!!! And, best of all, you feel GREAT!!! See you tomorrow.....and the next day......and the next.....

What do you get paid for all this exercise? Well I'm sure it's gone up since I used to exercise, but I got $.35 per carrier (heaped). A carrier is 6 of those small strawberry boxes (They're called Hallecks or Hallocks....not quite sure of the spelling) you see in the store (only just a little bit bigger. It's quite a deal when you consider that some people pay a lot of money to go to the gym.

(I'm just messing with ya bro'. I don't think you were intentionally comparing working in the fields to going to the gym.) t:

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

8 hour days in the sweltering sun. No minimum wage laws. No labor laws or protections. And we as Americans are the one's profiting from their slave labor. It's economic issue, true... but its just as much a moral issue in my mind.

Slave labor? C'mon. The majority of the workers came to the area that offers these very ****** jobs. They are far from slaves and I'm a bit taken aback by the hyperbole.

My point is of course that work would be tough on anyone the first few days they do it. If you go out there one day and try to do what someone does daily, your body would be challenged. Go out there for a month and do it and you'll be okay and will adapt.

Again, picking strawberries is not the worst job in the world. There are far worse things one can do. Is it ideal? Is it as kush as those of us in an office have it? Of course not. But it's day labor. Day labor sucks. The fact that it sucks is the reason we are discussing it.

In fact, it's so bad people knowingly break the law and migrate across borders to do it. The real bad must have been where they came from if it made them become "slaves" illegally.

 

[InCali]

8 hour days in the sweltering sun. No minimum wage laws. No labor laws or protections. And we as Americans are the one's profiting from their slave labor. It's economic issue, true... but its just as much a moral issue in my mind.

Dude, it frelling SUCKS. At least when you are picking string beans, they give you a bucket you can sit on (but not for very long because you'll get a circular crease in your @$$) and the plants can provide some shade. I used to get $.05 a pound (but I'm sure that's gone up). So if you pick 200 pounds of beans in a day, you got about $10. We used to occasionally amuse ourselves when the bosses weren't watching (it's easier to hide in a bean field) by two people taking a curved bean each, interlocking them with each other, pulling, and seeing which bean would break. It's JUST like playing a video game!!!

 

[MaceB]

Again... no minimum wage laws, no labor laws, no social security, no medical.... they aren't paid a living wage in any way. And who profits? The American consumer.

Are we actually capturing these people and forcing them to work as slaves? No. Are we essentially depriving them of other options and cornering them into an unsafe and unfair work environment? Yes. Call it what you will. I'll just call it exploitation.

If you're cool with that...well whatever man... I'm not religious, but even I know when a person is being undervalued or mistreated, and that's what's going on. We're using them for cheep labor, enjoying their yield, and then telling them to go home almost all in the same breath.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

If its the threshold of hell that is being described here, why are so many willing to do it?

 

[MaceB]

Look into your kid's eyes, and ask yourself what hell you wouldn't go through for them?

 

[moviedoors]

Look into your kid's eyes, and ask yourself what hell you wouldn't go through for them?

The answer is ANY hell.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Look into your kid's eyes, and ask yourself what hell you wouldn't go through for them?

So you admit that they know the risk. They are willing to work in horrid conditions under the threat of deportation at any minute.

But let's bring this back on topic. I think everyone understands that undocumented workers are here because they have little choice. I also believe that most people understand the hells of day labor. That's kinda what brought this all up to begin with.

We have people doing jobs here illegally because those that could do the job legally don't want to do that job. That's what I want fixed.

And since no one is coming across the border and it's all expired visas that are here, what's the opposition for a wall come from?

Seems like a great public works project if nothing else. We don't live in a world where it's a good idea to have completely open borders. No other country does. Why should we be any different? Especially with the real and credible threats that have openly mocked said open borders?

[YT]4oq_1KdZIsM[/YT]

 

[MaceB]

I have no problems building a wall. It's meaningless and not necessary, but if that will assuage people's concerns, then so be it. Also, it's stimulus for the economy... which would make it a hilarious exercise to watch conservatives admit to.

More often than not though, conservatives use the wall as an excuse to halt immigration reform, which is dearly needed. I'd give in on the wall if it actually meant fixing the real problem. More than likely though, it'd be built to assuage people's irrational fears, and then once it was complete, a lot of people would say we don't need reform anymore..cause we have a wall. That's my only concern.

I mean, you say that it's not a good idea to have completely open borders. That's why we don't. We've had a pretty big wall for a long time now. When is this thing going to be enforced enough? Big enough? There'll always be more fear mongers to bring this stuff up, regardless of whether we have a wall or national missile defense guarding the gates. Because the truth is that this stuff doesn't come from a rational place. It comes from xenophobia and the very human very disappointing impulse to blame our problems on the Other.

 

[craigdbfan]

The federal government will never allow an actual fortified wall to be constructed. Do people honestly think our broken border with Mexico isn't intentional?

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

The federal government will never allow an actual fortified wall to be constructed. Do people honestly think our broken border with Mexico isn't intentional?

Well, that's giving a lot of credit to the Government to be secretive and smarter than everyone else. What motives are there for our border to be the way it is?

I would love for all of America, north and south, to have open borders and free trade. I would love to prop this side of the world up more. We need to focus on Central America, north central South America and the Caribbean. Prosperity on this side of the world would be nice. Leave the old world to suffer in it's own dust.