The Ultimate Universe - Obsolete?

Nice to see I'm not alone, I really have given up on the ultimate universe, it's sad because I totally loved some of the stuff when it came out. The main thing that killed things for me: Ultimate Carnage arc, the ridiculous delays with the Ultimates and other things. Oh well, if it is cancelled I wont shed a tear.
 
I'll never forgive marvel for that horriable Ultimate Ga-lak-tus, especially since it looks very very very strongly that the Great True 616 Galactus is going to be reduced to that Ultimate ga-lak-tus crap cause it's easier for FOX to use and now they can easily say "well it's from the comics so the fans can't complain". Ugh that just burns me up.


Only if you refuse to see the potential that Gah Lak Tus has set forth.
 
Every comics series has its ups and downs. Whats really plaguing the ultimate universe is that with 3 real series, things have kinda slowed down in comparison to the major stuff happening off of civil war. But then thats the problem isn't it. I want to read a series without having to read some many crossovers and series. With the ultimate series, i have one issue after the other. But then that means that if i hate an arc, i don't want to read the next 2-3 issues. Now another thing plaguing ultimate series is that the best stories are held back for months. Many of the ulitmate mini series takes nearly 2 years(or dont even finish) for a 6 issue arc. You lose interest. Remember THE ULTIMATES and Wolverine v Hulk. What happened there.
 
One thing I will say AGAINST USM is this: Stories are usually 5 or 6 issues long, but most of the time, the first 4 or 5 issues are used to introduce a character. So, if it's a villain, they really only get one issue in the spotlight. Not to mention that characters disappear in USM....I will always use Venom as my example...

Now, I understand that they had to compact all the symbiote stuff into one arc. And I even enjoyed the character-building in the first issues. But Venom and Spidey only had one fight, and it barely lasted half an issue.

Then of course, Venom disappears. Mind you, Venom was Volume 6, so we're talking around issue 30 here. 70 issues later, Venom has yet to return to USM. That ticks me off. GG had 3 arcs (Volume 1, Volume 4, Volume 9), Doc Ock had 4 (Volume 3, Volume 9, Volume 10, Volume 17), and Kingpin had 4 as well (Volume 2, Volume 8, Volume 12, Volume 18), but other than those 3, USM villains get an arc of their own, and then they seem to vanish.
 
That's the problem with these LONG 5-6 part stories. Typically, Bendis stories could be told in 2-4 parts. The way it is, we get to see what, two or three villains a year.
 
I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Bendis hated Venom and only after a lot of thinking did he come up with a way to write a story about him and that it was probably the most he was gonna do with it.:confused:
 
I never thought that the Ultimate Universe would last longer than 10 years,i think some things should be finished up..and some event done to destroy the Universe,to bring the Ultimate readers into 616 Marvel.
 
I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Bendis hated Venom and only after a lot of thinking did he come up with a way to write a story about him and that it was probably the most he was gonna do with it.:confused:
I heard that he hated Venom too...but that's no excuse to boycott him. This isn't the 3rd grade, we don't give people the cold shoulder!
 
You do if it's a character you have no interest in writing. By your user name I guess he's a favorite of yours, and your posts seem to indicate that you think he deserves better; but if the writer prefers not to write about him...isn't that better than crap him up like he did Gwernage?
 
Agreed. I'd rather not have Bendis write the Avengers. He SHOULD give them the cold shoulder.
 
I like Ultimates, the first 10 arcs of USM and UFF. The rest I can live without, really. I just wish that they continued to publish Ultimates normally... I've given up going from issue to issue and now I'm just waiting for the TPB to come out for all of them... What's the point of waiting several months for a single issue anymore?
 
I never thought that the Ultimate Universe would last longer than 10 years,i think some things should be finished up..and some event done to destroy the Universe,to bring the Ultimate readers into 616 Marvel.

Well, keep in mind, a lot of people love the Ultimate Universe, with the same blind love that people love 616. If the Ultimate Universe isn't treated (or ended) with respect, then those readers will be offended, and drop Marvel altogether. Ending the Ultimate Universe will not automatically make people want to come reading 616.

For instance, the appeal, to me, of Ultimate Spider-Man is a young teen superhero with a lot of power and a lot of psychological craziness going on. There's little in 616 that can offer that to me... and if there is that there, they AREN'T Spider-Man, but some lesser important character. With Ultimate I can see this teen who is so important in everything that seems to go on.

The appeal of Ultimates was very much "REAL" superheroes, in the vein of Authority or Squadron Supreme or what have you. There's nowhere in 616 you can go without having to accept abject absurdity like mythical gods are real, unstable molecules abound, and people never die without clones on hand to replace them.

Those things can't be found in the 616 Universe, furthermore, those things are still valid reasons for the Ultimate Universe to continue, and if they are harnessed, the Ultimate Universe can actually continue to thrive again.

Man, I'm blabbering... I'm done...

But if I were going to make Ultimate X-Men cool again, I would start killing folk... there's too many mutants to worry about "These 15" ad nauseum. Make sure it's not 616. I really don't know about FF...
 
The Ultimate Universe is not obsolete so long as the issues still sell within the Top 35, which they all do (and some usually better). Mark Millar said it best once, that so long as Marvel can sell Avengers and Ultimates within the same month, the Ultimate Universe will churn on.

It is a fair point that after some 6-7 years, the Ultimate Universe has become what it was supposedly set out to be opposed to. It now has it's own rigorous continuity, although less of it (7 years vs. 40 is no contest). In half of it's titles, the A-List creative teams have left for greener pastures (UFF, UXM), and in USM, Bendis is running out of steam after 100+ issues and is too arrogant to admit it (plus, as the issues are still selling within the Top 10-20, management isn't going to muck with it). A universe that professed to have a contained universe now has a spin-off franchise (MARVEL ZOMBIES spun out of UFF, mind you) and averages one crossover "event" mini a year, and many of those mini's have been disposable and resulted in less fallout in the core titles than many of 616's events (love or hate CW, it has effected every book down the line, but read the core Ultimate titles and you'd hardly know they all fought a giant alien recently). Plus, Ultimate prided itself on being "new", but something that is over half a decade old just ain't "new" anymore. While there are far fewer trades to catch up on older Ultimate stories than for 616, a new fan coming in would be almost as lost hopping aboard a random Ultimate issue as they would 616.

Throw in the fact that lateness has become an issue (ULTIMATES 2 has drug on a half year longer than Marvel expected in 2006, and ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK has obviously become the new DAREDEVIL: TARGET even if Marvel won't admit it), and that Marvel's editorial board has committed itself to energizing 616, and you get the feeling that Ultimate has become the sidekick. It is there because it sells, and because writers have more creative freedom. I would argue that many of the writers who "made their name" at Marvel in Ultimate, at least at the beginning, have been writers who by nature tend to bulldoze over continuity anyway, such as Bendis, Millar, and Ellis. Ultimate trained them into getting more of their way with characters and shifting onto 616 where they have 40 years of backstory to conform too hasn't always worked out for them, to be modest.

On the positive side, Ultimate has provided ore for Marvel's multi-media department when they want video games and movies with more "modern" spins on origins. It gives a movie or video game studio an option for an update that doesn't come from them, such as switching from "radioactive spider" to "genetic super-spider" without having the fans cry out. Of course, this has as many strengths as it does weaknesses as Ultimate, like 616, has had plenty of blunders. As good as Millar's UFF was, giving Dr. Doom superpowers just seems to take something away, like if Batman got superpowers. Ultimate Goblin is simply a clone of Hulk and I am glad Raimi skipped it. But, it provided ore for well-recieved DTV's and video games, least in terms of sales. And it has provided those alternate media sources with alternate designs without having to do their own. I'd trust Hitch with a new Thor design than, say, in-house Activision artists.

Should Ultimate have a finite end? Of course, or at least some progression (like having Spidey move up some grades), otherwise it will feel more like "Neverland" than even 616 or ARCHIE. But, mainstream comics just don't "end" universe lines, at least so long as they are selling. Endings only come when they are abruptly shoehorned in as sales lag, much like, say, NEW UNIVERSE or 2099. So long as Marvel can sell ASM and USM with respectable numbers, they will. It would be naive, though, to see that Ultimate has in a way become a victim of itself. But Joe Q's Marvel is a Marvel that denies any and all problems, so don't expect this to come up. So long as sales are good, any problem is ignored.

Quite frankly, what UFF and UXM need are A-List creative teams who have some sort of clear idea. Carey's UFF isn't bad, but coming off of A-Listers like Bendis, Ellis, and Millar and you will lose steam. And while I adore Kirkman's other work, his run on UXM is rather weak as he seems to not have much focus. Ironically he would be a better fit on USM, a title Bendis doesn't seem to want to relinquish over his dead body, despite the fact that it argueably hit a creative lull around ULTIMATE CARNAGE and ever since was hit or miss, with the last "miss" being the last I could bare (Ultimate Clone Saga, the longest storyarc in the title that repeated all of the 616's clone bungles in 1/3rd of the time, even with the benefit of hindsight). Plus, after 6-7 years, all the "Ultimate" versions of key characters have been done and so one is left scraping the bottom of the barrel, like for Diablo or Ringer. The Ultimate universe has provided few "original" characters on it's own and those that have emerged usually stunk, like Geldoff or Hawk-Owl. ULTIMATES needs to ship on time and USM needs new blood, but it has to be A-List blood. Bendis needs a break from that, because it has ceased to be innovative and has delved into obsessive fan-fiction (plus, how is a Spider-Man universe where his ENTIRE supporting cast knows his identity ANY different than 616, beyond age?).

The Ultimate Universe isn't obsolete, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It does need a few check-up's though, but I doubt they are coming. Rather than being seen as "the line of the future" anymore, they're seen as just another bunch of decent selling Marvel books, where creative teams come and go.
 
More and more I fail to see the point of Ult. X-Men when they have another young X-Men title that has been modernized and uses the iconic characters. It has even become an ongoing, LOL!
 
More and more I fail to see the point of Ult. X-Men when they have another young X-Men title that has been modernized and uses the iconic characters. It has even become an ongoing, LOL!

You mean X-MEN: FIRST CLASS?

Plus, throw in the all ages MARVEL ADVENTURES line.

Like I said, at this point the line is simply a bunch of comics that sell well to Marvel, and whatever a lot of their original purpose was is gone. It's just modern retakes of old characters with more leeway.

And X-MEN: FIRST CLASS has been more enjoyable to me than most of Kirkman's run on UXM, IMO.
 
I agree. The sales are really the only reason the Ultimate line still exists. They keep making money so Marvel keeps putting them out, even though they really don't have much of a purpose anymore.
 
I agree. The sales are really the only reason the Ultimate line still exists. They keep making money so Marvel keeps putting them out, even though they really don't have much of a purpose anymore.

Plus, to add to this discussion, a lot of what Ultimate was created to do has already been done after 6-7 years and Marvel is in a far different place as of April 2007 than they were in the winter of 2000, when USM kicked off the Ultimate line. In 2000, Joe Q was still a rookie EIC and Jemas had a lot of control, and Marvel was just trying to straighten out after coming out of their 90's bankruptcy. BLADE and especially X-MEN were about to take off but they didn't have a reliable merchandising empire with movies yet. They were hungry and they were desperate for some new ideas and blood, or at least something to jazz people, and in the beginning Ultimate did that. It brought in people like Bendis and Millar, and restored some faith in these characters again, especially as SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE (circa 1998) was simular to USM in a way but Bryne just pooched it.

Then, as Ultimate gained steam, you had their writers having more influence at Marvel either with additional titles in 616, or more importantly, cannbilizing some of the gimmicks of Ultimate. For example, the fact that SHIELD is international and not some hi-tech arm of the U.S. has become horribly blurry since Ultimate kicked off, and it changed how some writers depicted SHIELD. Ultimate also made the bloated "6 issue or bust" story tactic popular, and while that has also brought about ills, it apparently worked for a bit to drive up interest and thankfully some writers...some...are moving past it again.

Now, 6-7 years later, Marvel is a much stronger company, Jemas is pretty much out of the picture and Ultimate has been strip-mined by other media as well as 616 as they focused on 616 again. Add in all the points above about the content, continuity, loss of A-Listers, ideas, etc. and Ultimate in a way has outlived it's original ambition. But in 2000 Marvel, they had a lot of overly ambitious ideas. Only now, those ideas are in 616, about how every event will change stuff. Ultimate has been left in the dust and are simply comics that sell well, so they'll continue. The producers behind feature films, video games, and DTV's will continue using Ultimate, or at least the trades, as ore in case some of the 616 history seems too "old" and they want a 21st century alternative to an origin or a design for some characters. Certainly Raimi planning Spider-Man films must have been aided by having not only 40+ years of history, but a year or so of a more modern reimagining of the origin to tweak into his film, which merges both. In the area of mass media productions, the Ultimate incarnations do seem to have some influence.

But as for a comic line itself, it's purpose has been accomplished in a way but it still sells, so it remains. And it still has the potential for solid stories, just at the moment the wells seem drier than they used to be.
 
The Ultimate Universe is not obsolete because it has alot of fans. While the stories and character may not be perfect, the same could be said about the regular marvel universe. Ultimates has been one of marvels best books even if it has delays. Its been worth the wait. Ultimate F4 is a great book that more scifi than the regular F4. Ultimate Spidey has its moments but its not perfect. Nor is the regular comic and infact its been bad at times. Its hard to modernize without going through these the problems it has faced. Time will only tell.
 
In terms of sales numbers, while all of the Ultimate titles are well-selling titles that sell within the Top 35-40 (which means over 50,000 copies a month), the only one that has managed to hold onto it's audience and actually gain readers within a year is USM (somehow). Both UFF and UXM have been in a quiet decline for the past 1-2 years, UFF being worse off as it's the poorest selling out of the three right now, with Millar & Land gone. ULTIMATES 2 has become something akin to ASTONISHING X-MEN, a title that comes out so infrequently that it seems dishonest to consider it an "ongoing", but in whatever month it randomly appears, it's a lock for a Top 10-15 sale. ULTIMATE POWER, which actually isn't a bad story, is selling about as well as USM.

I still buy & read Ultimate, but I can certainly agree with some points that it just ain't what it used to be. For a variety of reasons.
 
Dread what you wrote was a far far far far far more sensible and intelligent critique of the ultimate universe than the article that started this discussion.

Liked it.

:)
 
Man, when are they bringing back Ultimate Gwen Stacy?

I lost all interest in Spiderman, Ult version when I realized he'd end up with Mary Jane again.

Bah.
 
You do if it's a character you have no interest in writing. By your user name I guess he's a favorite of yours, and your posts seem to indicate that you think he deserves better; but if the writer prefers not to write about him...isn't that better than crap him up like he did Gwernage?
It's not so much that I think he deserves better...the thing is, Ultimate Venom was great! Definitely on the right track...but then Bendis stopped writing him. Volume 6 built him up all that time, but then the fight was so anticlimatic, and I believe that Venom could be great with more face-time in the Ultimate Universe.
 
It's not so much that I think he deserves better...the thing is, Ultimate Venom was great! Definitely on the right track...but then Bendis stopped writing him. Volume 6 built him up all that time, but then the fight was so anticlimatic, and I believe that Venom could be great with more face-time in the Ultimate Universe.

You thought Ultimate Venom was great? Yikes!
 
You thought Ultimate Venom was great? Yikes!
Umm...let's see a he was a Venom that didn't eat brains, didn't have green slobber, and didn't try to protect the innocent.

Yeah, sounds like a good Venom to me.
 

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