The Wachowskis Returning to Sci-Fi with Jupiter Ascending - Part 1

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Go see it babe I want to see what you think about it. Hell maybe you will love it.

Don't pay for a later show though.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

This was not as bad as the internet / critics made it out to be, but not really anything special either. Visually and Music score wise, this movie was a masterpiece. But it's decent. 6/10.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Go see it babe I want to see what you think about it. Hell maybe you will love it.

Don't pay for a later show though.

Oh don't worry about that. The only late showings I pay for are the Thursday openings. The last one I did was GotG. But yeah, I think I will go. Though like most it seems the 3D showings are far outweighing the 2D showings, and I am not paying extra for horrid 3D.

 

[matrix_ghost]

At tonight’s Chapman University panel on “The New Era of Television,” Netflix Chief Content Officer Ted Sarandos took a beat during the first few minutes of the symposium to get a good word in about the Wachowskis’ upcoming new Netflix series Sense8 — a quite-needed gesture in the wake of the siblings’ $200M-plus box office bomb this weekend Jupiter Ascending.

However, hope resides for the VFX visionaries with their 10-episode Netflix Sense8. A source close to the production told Deadline last week that the Wachowskis “aren’t overspending, they’re coming in on time, and they’re wonderful to work with. This is the first time that they’ve created a longform series, and it may well work to their creative sensibilities more than film recently.” Another source close to the siblings said: “Who knows if they’ll ever direct a film again? They might have found their niche with episodic drama.”

Seems there is hope after all for these guys.

 

[max314]

...the choreography [of Batman Vs. Bane in The Dark Knight Rises] is laughably piss poor.

I think I know what you mean.

Christopher Nolan had created an implicit contract with the audience that he was showing you a "realistic" Batman.

But the choreography seemed constituted almost entirely of wild haymakers and no real defense – like a hammy Indiana Jones flick, or something.

In that sense, The Dark Knight Rises does renege on the series' established realist aspirations in many ways.

But you know what? I enjoyed the hell out of it anyway

When the Burly Brawl happened, me and bunch of people literally stood up out of our seats for a minute. It was unlike anything you'd ever seen at the time, I just became overcome with giddiness.

My particular theater turned into a freaking soccer stadium with people standing up and screaming at the screen going, "OOHHHHH!!!" and "DAAAAMMMMNNNN!!!"

That's never happened before. Or since.

The CG has aged badly, but that scene knocked people off their asses in 2003.

The full CG shots are definitely cringe-worthy...

We all know what the Wachowskis were aiming for – they wanted to completely detach the subjects from time and space to give people a live action animé experience.

Noble ambition.

Unfortunately, they also ended up detaching the subjects from any sense of reality.

Which – seeing as the Wachowskis always make a point to shoot practically – begs the question: "Why?"


The answer is this:

After The Matrix, the Wachowskis got Warner Brothers to pour tens of millions of dollars into R&D for what was to become the next level (or many levels) beyond bullet time.

Thus, bullet time pioneer John Gaeta developed a new technology called Universal Capture (or "U-Cap") that took bullet time's extrapolation technique and applied it to the entire human form.

As you can see from these tests, U-Cap actually worked:

U-CAP TEST FOOTAGE


So why didn't these successes translate to the Burly Brawl?

Unfortunately, the rendering process is HUGELY demanding – especially in 2003. The computing power required to fully render all the shots would have taken YEARS, and Warner Brothers had everything riding on a 2003 release date.

To be fair, the results are mixed.

The shots with the most rendering time ended up looking the best (e.g. TRINITY FALLS may be the best CG human in cinema history, and certain SECTIONS OF THE BURLY BRAWL are still awe-inspiring).

But then there are the nasty, plastic-looking moments that totally eject the viewer from the experience.


The Burly Brawl – with its mix of practical stuntwork and groundbreaking computer technology – could have ended up being the greatest fight scene committed to film.

Instead, it remains a work-in-progress, hampered by logistical limitations, and testament to how technology is running to keep up with the Wachowskis' imaginations.

Still, U-Cap has paved the way for modern computer techniques, and The Matrix Reloaded remains a groundbreaking film for this reason among many others.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The worst thing about the Burly Brawl isn't the plastic faces imo. It is the clothing. Neo's brilliant coat lacks texture, weight, and no longer appears black. It almost seems to take on the green hue of the world and becomes too bright and green. Same with the multiple Smiths. It makes it far too obvious that they aren't there.

 

[max314]

Neo's brilliant coat lacks texture, weight, and no longer appears black.

I agree.

But it's not just a cloth thing. The colour timing of the CG shots do not match that of the live action shots AT ALL.

I have no idea how that slipped through the net.

 

[MrMaooz]

I just watched the Chateau fight, and it's absolutely breathtaking. Reloaded has some pretty good action scenes, but the film itself is kind of boring, and meh. Plus, that rave scene is just bad.

I'm in the camp that thought Revolutions was more engaging.

 

[max314]

I'm in the camp that thought Revolutions was more engaging.

That's cool to hear.

I still feel you need to watch and treat Reloaded and Revolutions as a single experience if you want to get the full effect.

The Architect's speech and Neo stopping the sentinels in Reloaded is a clear "midpoint reversal" (if we're getting all screenwritery) with he and the rest of the characters having to deal with the fallout in Revolutions.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I just watched the Chateau fight, and it's absolutely breathtaking. Reloaded has some pretty good action scenes, but the film itself is kind of boring, and meh. Plus, that rave scene is just bad.

I'm in the camp that thought Revolutions was more engaging.

Nothing in the sequels engages me more then the Chateau fight, thus it wins. Even if shouldn't have existed from a narrative standpoint.

 

[max314]

...the Chateau fight [...] shouldn't have existed from a narrative standpoint.

Interesting.

Why do you think that?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Interesting.

Why do you think that?

I still don't understand the idea behind the Keymaker running. Neo is right there. Let him handle his business. We just saw him kick the crap out of a legion of Smiths. The keymaker running literally makes everything worse. And as awesome as Neo is when it comes to hand to hand, he could solve a lot of problems by carrying a gun around.

 

[terry78]

I think as a film fan you need to watch all the Wachowski's flicks at least once, just to form your own opinion on what they do technique wise.

 

[max314]

I still don't understand the idea behind the Keymaker running. Neo is right there. Let him handle his business. We just saw him kick the crap out of a legion of Smiths. The keymaker running literally makes everything worse.

I see your point.

But the Merovingian seems legitimately surprised when Neo exhibits his abilities – perhaps implying that Neo's predecessors weren't quite as powerful...?

The Keymaker bolts out of fear that he "cannot go back!" So you're right that he makes everything worse, but I think the plot point / complication in question is justified, even if it is a tad contrived.

And as awesome as Neo is when it comes to hand to hand, he could solve a lot of problems by carrying a gun around.

Haha, yeah – I can just imagine Neo bending bullets like James McAvoy in Wanted

Interesting fact: in the script, Neo charges up Matrix code "hadoukens" and fires them at opponents

There's some great concept art of him doing this, but it never made it into the final film

 

[Lily Adler]

According to the Deadline article, JA was greenlit at the treatment stage -- not the final script. Jeff Robinov signed off on the casting, production design and costumes, but was gone before shooting began. Not only did the film come in over budget (the actual budget is around $205M-$210M rather than $175M), but the Wachowskis got final cut too.

http://deadline.com/2015/02/jupiter...-tatum-mila-kunis-box-office-bomb-1201369053/

WB will likely use Jeff Robinov as their scapegoat, even though he's at Sony now.

I don't mind if he does. Jeff's regime had questionable decisions *cough*No female leads*cough*.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I see your point.

But the Merovingian seems legitimately surprised when Neo exhibits his abilities – perhaps implying that Neo's predecessors weren't quite as powerful...?

The Keymaker bolts out of fear that he "cannot go back!" So you're right that he makes everything worse, but I think the plot point / complication in question is justified, even if it is a tad contrived.

I see your point. Plus, I know am a bit bitter about Neo never fighting the twins.

Haha, yeah – I can just imagine Neo bending bullets like James McAvoy in Wanted

Interesting fact: in the script, Neo charges up Matrix code "hadoukens" and fires them at opponents

There's some great concept art of him doing this, but it never made it into the final film

While that could have been really corny I honestly expected stuff like that. Especially after what he did to Smith at the end of the first film. And if they pulled it off, it could have been glorious. It would have been the closest thing to a high budget Ryu or Goku.

 

[Loki882]

I still don't understand the idea behind the Keymaker running. Neo is right there. Let him handle his business. We just saw him kick the crap out of a legion of Smiths. The keymaker running literally makes everything worse. And as awesome as Neo is when it comes to hand to hand, he could solve a lot of problems by carrying a gun around.

I think that the problem with the sequels is that, while they had a general idea of where the story was going, they didn't refine it nearly as much as they should have. Also, I don't think that they'd fully thought out the ending. And they needed to stretch it out over two movies, but didn't have enough material to justify it. So that's why you had:

-Scenes that looked cool, but really served no other narrative purpose other than padding The Chateau fight looks cool, and the highway chase is amazing in many respects, but they're completely pointless in the grand scheme of things.

-Really boring scenes where nothing of substance is being accomplished and the movies is trying WAY too hard to sound deep.

-Really stupid stupid stuff like the Rave scenes.

-Making things much more complicated than they needed to be. They were REALLY dragging out the "find the Keymaker" thing. There was no reason why there needed to be so many steps just to find this guy, besides more padding. And what they ended up doing with him in no way justified how overconvoluted/time-consuming getting him was, imo.

Basically, the Wachowski's needed a script doctor/editor to help refine this story.

 

[max314]

...I [...] am a bit bitter about Neo never fighting the twins.

Good point.

The posters and trailers had me rooting for a Neo Vs. Twins fight of some kind, too. Then the Twins phase out and go after the Keymaker, and you're like, "Wait-- What?! NO!!"

They even tease the potential confrontation by having Neo advance on the Twins...only to have them smugly shut the door in his face and reset its function!

AARRGGHH!!

Still, the ensuing freeway chase was ****ing poetry in motion.

While that could have been really corny [...] if they pulled it off, it could have been glorious. It would have been the closest thing to a high budget Ryu or Goku.

It would have totally completed the circle of The Matrix being an animé / video game come to life.

But I think you're right about the potential corniness factor. That may be why they extricated it from the final version.

 

[Loki882]

Given all of the other corny/ridiculous stuff present in those movies, I don't see why pulling a Wanted would be the thing that was too "out there."

 

[max314]

Oh, I think we were talking about the Matrix code "hadoukens" as opposed to bending bullets.

But, yeah, I think that whole universe is ripe for creating some incredible imagery.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, Neo could already stop bullets. Going Wanted wouldn't have been out there. Him shooting "fire" from his hands would have been something quite different.

 

[Loki882]

Well the Wachowski's were clearly paying "homage" to anime a lot. So why not add DBZ or Street Fighter to the list while they're at at

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I thought The W's didn't quite reach the DBZ aspirations they were aiming for at the last Neo vs Smith fight.

Zack Snyder did though with Man of Steel 10 years later. Now those were as DBZ as you can get.

 

[BatLobster]

-Making things much more complicated than they needed to be. They were REALLY dragging out the "find the Keymaker" thing. There was no reason why there needed to be so many steps just to find this guy, besides more padding. And what they ended up doing with him in no way justified how overconvoluted/time-consuming getting him was, imo.

I agree with most of your points, but not this one. There weren't that many steps really, it was just going to see the Merovingian and Persephone, who I thought were one of the most delicious additions to the mythology. Basically the King and Queen of The Matrix. That section of the movie foreshadows so much of what's to come, revealing key bits of insight into previous iterations of The Matrix. While we learn that the path of the One is merely a way of dealing with the inherent anamoly of choice, it's also important that we understand the ways in which this sixth cycle is different, and they're a big part of it. The Matrix is Merv's 'kingdom', he doesn't want to comply with the game anymore, he wants to hold onto his power. This makes him an obstacle for Reloaded, but more importantly it also highlights the arc of machines becoming more human-like over the course of the trilogy. It's not so much The Keymaker that's important, but the "why" of the Keymaker, as Merv points out himself in the movie. Again this is where it's most useful to view the two movies as one.

However, I do agree that more refining could've gone a long way in making the movies more balanced in their execution, but to me that basically necessitates them approaching each sequel individually.

 

[I Am The Knight]

This thread has become a lot more enjoyable since we started discussing Reloaded.

I like how Neo doesn't carry guns after embracing his role as the One, it keeps him, ah, pure, I guess, (Altough I don't remember if he uses any guns in Revolutions, it's been a while since I've seen the films).