The "Why So Serious? Gotham City Noir" RPG: Sign-Up/OOC Thread

If Byrd doesn't want Robin, then all of those points are invalid though. And Nightwing is a great character that shouldn't be discarded because he can't be Robin first.

Maybe so, but it just seems like an awful lot of back history to discard. And a darker, more realistic Robin may fit in at a later stage in the game. For Jason Todd, skipping his role as Robin would be okay...but for Dick, it doesn't really seem right to get rid of his roots.
 
Ah, but the reason that Nightwing IS a great character is that he WAS Robin first.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I believe he can be great on his own. And in a Nolan-inspired universe - Nightwing makes a whole Hell of a lot more sense than Robin.

Not to mention that Byrd was okay with it when I approached him. Hell, he even seemed mildly interested in the idea. I respect that a lot of people obviously disagree with me, but Bats himself gave me permission, so...
 
Maybe so, but it just seems like an awful lot of back history to discard. And a darker, more realistic Robin may fit in at a later stage in the game. For Jason Todd, skipping his role as Robin would be okay...but for Dick, it doesn't really seem right to get rid of his roots.
It's not really discarding because Robin never existed in this Universe.
 
Who you'll be playing isn't Dick Grayson. It's someone with elements of Dick Grayson. What makes Nightwing such a great character on his own is exactly his history as Robin. The entire essence of Dick Grayson is tied into that. You can't ignore that, because you'll get an entirely different character.
 
Who you'll be playing isn't Dick Grayson. It's someone with elements of Dick Grayson. What makes Nightwing such a great character on his own is exactly his history as Robin. The entire essence of Dick Grayson is tied into that. You can't ignore that, because you'll get an entirely different character.
Again, I respectfully disagree. Dick Grayson can still be Dick Grayson without having to be Batman's adopted son and ward. It's not hard to keep the personality of the character while removing the direct connection to Batman.
 
Again, I respectfully disagree. Dick Grayson can still be Dick Grayson without having to be Batman's adopted son and ward. It's not hard to keep the personality of the character while removing the direct connection to Batman.

Maybe so, but to me it's like having Spider-Man without the radioactive spider-bite or Hulk without the gamma explosion.
 
Then you just have a personality. What makes these characters so rich is exactly their connections and relationships. There's tons of people with Dick Grayson's kind of personality, but none of them are Dick Grayson.

But I have no authority here, so it's up to MB.
 
Again, I respectfully disagree. Dick Grayson can still be Dick Grayson without having to be Batman's adopted son and ward. It's not hard to keep the personality of the character while removing the direct connection to Batman.

I'll disagree here. I think that what makes Dick's personality what it is, is his origins as a kid crime-fighter. He was the jolly to Batman's brooding.
 
Again, I respectfully disagree. Dick Grayson can still be Dick Grayson without having to be Batman's adopted son and ward. It's not hard to keep the personality of the character while removing the direct connection to Batman.
Thats what makes his personality though. Here you have an 8 year old boy who just experienced the worst tragedy possible, and he's taken in by someone who experienced the same thing. Only Dick has more of a support structure at his young age than Bruce ever did. Dick has Bruce, Alfred, the Titans, all to look after him. In doing so, Dick carves a personality that is so far removed from Batman's that it's almost bright as the sun.
 
Thats what makes his personality though. Here you have an 8 year old boy who just experienced the worst tragedy possible, and he's taken in by someone who experienced the same thing. Only Dick has more of a support structure at his young age than Bruce ever did. Dick has Bruce, Alfred, the Titans, all to look after him. In doing so, Dick carves a personality that is so far removed from Batman's that it's almost bright as the sun.
Again, I don't see the issue.

Dick can still experience a similar tragedy in his past, only he turns to family friends and the GCPD instead of Batman and the Titans.
 
I don't think the GCPD and Batman/Titans can be rightfully compared.
 
I don't think the GCPD and Batman/Titans can be rightfully compared.
Well, when you consider that:

A.) The Titans will never exist in this Universe,
B.) Byrd has expressed his opinion about not having a Robin,

It's either improvise - like Nolan would - or completely ignore Dick Grayson, one of the crucial and most-loved characters of the Batman Universe. Personally, I'd rather have my Nightwing than nothing. But clearly, so many people are so averse to change that it'll never happen.

The only person somewhat on my side was Byrd, but even he recognized that this is a losing battle.
 
You all make valid points as to why Robin can't be disguarded. I agree, his times with Batman did shape his character and personality, making him the Nightwing we know and love. But, to be fair, Dick's time on the Titans was also a huge character progresser. So...just keep that in mind.

EDIT Nevermind...it's already been brought up...:dry:
 
While its not perfect, one compromise I can think of, is making Dick Grayson just be a cop who decides to become Nightwing, however EBJ chooses to do it, with no connection to Batman.

Then, when Byrd Man feels ready to introduce Robin, let the first Robin (in this continuity) be Tim Drake. And give Tim Drake the origin in the circus, with his family dying, and Wayne taking him in...

EDIT: As for the relationship with Bruce being essential to Dick, perhaps Batman can initially be at odds with Nightwing, before taking on a mentor-like role. Just an idea...
 
While its not perfect, one compromise I can think of, is making Dick Grayson just be a cop who decides to become Nightwing, however EBJ chooses to do it, with no connection to Batman.

Then, when Byrd Man feels ready to introduce Robin, let the first Robin (in this continuity) be Tim Drake. And give Tim Drake the origin in the circus, with his family dying, and Wayne taking him in...

EDIT: As for the relationship with Bruce being essential to Dick, perhaps Batman can initially be at odds with Nightwing, before taking on a mentor-like role. Just an idea...
Exactly my thoughts. If Byrd does want a Robin down the line, Tim Drake is still available.
 
Hmmmm, I'm going to have to side with the majority here. I think Including Nightwing so early on lessens the Batman's effect in a way.
 
Well, my opinion, no Robin means no Dick Grayson means no Nightwing.

Making Dick just be a cop lessens his character IMO.

Still, I understand that EBJ disagrees, so it's up to MB.
 
Well, my opinion, no Robin means no Dick Grayson means no Nightwing.

Making Dick just be a cop lessens his character IMO.

Still, I understand that EBJ disagrees, so it's up to MB.
"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

:yay:

In any case, I think being a cop gives him a good baseline. Not only does it give him some physical prowess to start with, but it also allows him to witness the crime of the city and Batman's effect on it.

I think it definitely fits better in a Nolan-verse than having him be a trapeze artist. That origin is even more outdated than Ghost Rider being a carnival biker, IMO.
 
Okay, I've been watching this topic all morning closely, weighing in each point and argument for or against the application that EBJ put forth, and I've come to a decision.

While I don't feel EBJ was really invalid in thinking he could apply for a Nightwing without his historical ties to Bruce Wayne and Batman, there are rules that have been established for this particular RPG. One such rule is, as follows...

Master Bruce said:
People Know The People: When taking up a character for your own, you must respect the history that character has endured. That means if something is clearly out of character, you will be called out on it, and perhaps even forced to edit your posts. You have the responsibility to be your character, so be your character. Not a new character with another one's name.

This means that, bearing in mind that this continuity has it's freedoms, there is also a level of limitation. The changes made to characters like Bane, The Riddler, and so forth, would qualify under the terms of freedoms that are allowed when making a character as uniquely interesting as possible. And while this idea of Nightwing being an established crusader outside of Batman's tutilage is quite unique, and quite interesting... it also steps past a considerable number of aspects that make Dick Grayson the character that he is.

I own a majority of the Nightwing title. I've played the character in the DC RPG off and on since Season II. And let me tell you, while EBJ is optimistic about being able to keep the character's core intact, I'm going to have to say that he's simply taking far too much away to make that as valid as it sounds. Nightwing is a beloved character, yes, but not simply because of his personality. It's because of his history and winning over his audience as Robin, and the very concept of a former protege trying to outshine one of the most iconic heroes in the DCU by becoming his own man.

The application is hereby denied. For this RPG. However, to be fair to EBJ, I'm going to give him an offer that bypasses my own plans. Since he's slated to play Dick Grayson in the Ultimate DC Universe RPG, I'm going to give him the option of going forth with this Nightwing concept in that RPG instead. This concept fits that one's far more, and it would be an addition that I, and I'm sure many others, would be very interested in seeing.
 
However, to be fair to EBJ, I'm going to give him an offer that bypasses my own plans. Since he's slated to play Dick Grayson in the Ultimate DC Universe RPG, I'm going to give him the option of going forth with this Nightwing concept in that RPG instead. This concept fits that one's far more, and it would be an addition that I, and I'm sure many others, would be very interested in seeing.
I appreciate the offer, but I think Dick as Robin works in UDC - since there are a lot of crazy costumed people running around over there. The compromise I attempted to make here was due to the fact that this is a grittier reality, which makes a character like Robin stick out like a sore thumb.

So while I will be making alterations to Robin over there, I don't think that RPG calls for anything as drastic as this one might. Unless this was a subtle hint that you don't want a Robin over there. :cwink:
 
nerds galore. i love it here! never checked out the rpg threads before. who knew i was missing all this!
 
So while I will be making alterations to Robin over there, I don't think that RPG calls for anything as drastic as this one might. Unless this was a subtle hint that you don't want a Robin over there. :cwink:

On the contrary. I prefer you play Robin, and I'm excited about having the character finally be brought to fruition in the upcoming season. I just didn't want you to feel like this idea was a waste.
 

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