BvS The Zack Snyder Validation Thread (big rant)

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True, but there are many factors that could possibly explain the MoS reaction.

1) Superman is a much, much bigger icon than Green Lantern. Quite frankly, I doubt anyone really cared about GL. But Superman is likely the most iconic Superhero ever.

2) Now, Spider-Man actually is as big as Superman, but a possible reason for TASM2's dismissal is the fact that we've already gotten very good Spider-Man movies in Raimi's first two movies. When you compare it to the originals, the new movies do not hold up at all, which usually stunts debate and discussion. They are clearly better.

3) MoS is a unique case where another Superman reboot/continuation happened with Superman Returns. That film was also met with mixed reactions, but the fact that it got better reception from the critics makes for a lengthy, unending discussion. Two reboots less than 7 years apart, combined with the fact that MoS was seen as a continuation of Nolan's trilogy (even though it isn't), leads to much debate and controversy.

MoS is not on the level of TASM2 or Green Lantern, but it's not that much better either. It's a much more complex, interesting case though. Lastly, I'd like to add that another reason MoS is still talked about so passionately is because it is the cornerstone of WB/DC's entire cinematic universe. BvS, Justice League, etc are all connected to MoS, which obviously leads to heated debates about the future.

Green Lantern and TASM2 were pretty much one-and-done. Also, not sure what you're getting at with the "intelligent" thing, but I don't agree with the notion that anyone who liked TASM2 or GL is unintelligent, if that's what you were trying to say.

Good post.

That's a good, effective explanation of why people didn't care that much about bad spider man movies -- they have already had good ones, very recently.

The intelligent thing was brought because fans of so-called bad movies are often dismissed as "the masses", I'm also guilty of this too sometimes though I'm trying to do better.
 
I think on a very base level, a movie can make a boat load of money if it provides epic spectacle and does it very well. Critics and fans may trash the Transformers movies but those movies are the very definition of "Summer blockbuster film." Those are movies that parents can take their kids to, sit back, laugh and enjoy the visual spectacle. That is why those movies make boatloads of cash.

With Man of Steel, even though it was a visual feast on par with the TF films, I think the darker tone really turned off a lot of people. I remember watching it in theater and there were a few kids in my showing and when Supes breaks Zod's neck you could practically taste the uncomfortable tension in the crowd; Heck, I felt uncomfortable the first time I saw it. I was shocked. I couldn't believe they had the balls to go that far. Truth is, it probably made those kids feel very uncomfortable as opposed to watching Hulk punch Thor in TA where everyone roared with applause and laughter. I could picture a lot of parents saying "Wow, I didn't sign up for this, I just had my five year old kids watch Superman break someone's neck. Definitely not bringing them back for this."
 
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Umm... Geez... I take it that a film's BO is germane to how much the audience actually liked the film, which is not about the film's "quality", ya know? I crap on the TF films as much as the next guy, but... people MUST like them, since they made enough to perpetuate not one, not two, but three sequels. Again... that's not comment on it's "quality". If you say "MOS was not popular with the audience" and someone points to the BO and Blu Ray sales, then... how is that not valid?

If the goal is to get a lot of people to like the movie, which I think it was, then MoS is successful.

Mcdonald's brings in more money than entire small countries. Their goal is to make money, and they make billions.

Is Mcdonald's food considered high quality, exquisite stuff? No.

How much money the studio makes is not really relevant to us as consumers; we don't get a single dime. What we do get is the movie itself, which we watch and "consume". Judging a movie based on how much money it makes is like judging the taste of your food based on how much profit the restaurant is making.
 
Mcdonald's brings in more money than entire small countries. Their goal is to make money, and they make billions.

Is Mcdonald's food considered high quality, exquisite stuff? No.

How much money the studio makes is not really relevant to us as consumers; we don't get a single dime. What we do get is the movie itself, which we watch and "consume". Judging a movie based on how much money it makes is like judging the taste of your food based on how much profit the restaurant is making.

Did I or did I not say that the BO should be used to judge any film's quality? No. I did not. I said that BO can indeed be used if one is making a point about a film's popularity with the wider audience. BO is perfectly legitimate as a subject to be brought up in context. Which I did.
 
Mcdonald's brings in more money than entire small countries. Their goal is to make money, and they make billions.

Is Mcdonald's food considered high quality, exquisite stuff? No.

How much money the studio makes is not really relevant to us as consumers; we don't get a single dime. What we do get is the movie itself, which we watch and "consume". Judging a movie based on how much money it makes is like judging the taste of your food based on how much profit the restaurant is making.

That's a fair criticism of McDonald's but not when your preference is Burger King or Subway :-)

To return to the origin of this side thread, it's not correct to imply that everyone hated MoS, it was quite well-loved by a lot of people and that love is earned by certain things it did well which should be acknowledged. It was not universally hated or even worse did not draw a universal "meh".

That's the root of the controversy I think, this drew a bimodal audience reaction, a lot of love and a lot of hate with very "meh" in between. So it's not correct to dismiss the movie as if it had either zero or merely marginal redeeming qualities.
 
Wow. This was beautiful.
hhASFVz.gif

Lol, thanks. :yay: :up:

First off, the complaint is not about the CGI, but rather the excessive use of it in favor of character moments, of which Avengers and GotG had plenty. MoS did not.

Your points about what you "saw" in MoS are passionate no doubt, but most of it seems to be what you made of it, rather than what was actually shown. Kudos to you for finding so much meaning in the final rumble, but ostensibly the majority of viewers did not see it that way. That's completely on Snyder and Goyer, not the viewers. This is an entertainment business, and most people do not choose to look so deeply into it and find as much depth and meaning as you did. The responsibility to present all the things you mentioned in a clear, lucid way belonged solely to Snyder, and he didn't do a good job.

To most people, including myself, it was just as The Endless stated~ Two CGI characters mindlessly going at each other. The Avengers and GotG are far better received not because of some double standard, but because they achieved their goals and endeared their characters to the audience in ways that MoS simply failed to do.

Firstly, thanks. :up:

Secondly, each and every scene I described is quite literally what was shot and shown. It's all there, I did not have to look deep and come to such conclusions after contemplating the movie, discussing it at length or watch it multiple times. I saw it all the first time I watched it.

So once again, all that I described was literally shown in the movie's scenes, which I have described moment by moment from what can be seen on screen not only through the dialogue but through the actors actions, not what I imagined.

That's a fair criticism of McDonald's but not when your preference is Burger King or Subway :-)

To return to the origin of this side thread, it's not correct to imply that everyone hated MoS, it was quite well-loved by a lot of people and that love is earned by certain things it did well which should be acknowledged. It was not universally hated or even worse did not draw a universal "meh".

That's the root of the controversy I think, this drew a bimodal audience reaction, a lot of love and a lot of hate with very "meh" in between. So it's not correct to dismiss the movie as if it had either zero or merely marginal redeeming qualities.

THIS > 9000.

Thanks for this. When people say that everyone hated MOS, it seems completely untrue. The polls, public ratings and other information speaks otherwise. As you said, there's a 45% love and 45% hate with 10% meh in between and I'm ready to leave it at that.
 
Did I or did I not say that the BO should be used to judge any film's quality? No. I did not. I said that BO can indeed be used if one is making a point about a film's popularity with the wider audience. BO is perfectly legitimate as a subject to be brought up in context. Which I did.

I think you're misusing the word "popularity". Everyone and their mother knows McDonald's is highly processed junk that's not good for you. Transformers movies are almost universally known as horrible movies with tons of money-making CGI. The latest one had an 18% Rotten Tomato score and a 54% user score, which is exceptionally low (you can't say the audience loves it) yet it made more money than its predecessors. To call these things "popular" based solely on their sales figures is a hollow argument, which was the point I was making.

The reason these things sell so well is because they are easy, cheap, and satiate base desires. Not because they are "popular". I stand by my statement that using box office is not a good way to defend MoS.

There are many, many people skeptical of how BvS will turn out, but I have not seen a single person worry about how it will do at the box office.
 
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That's a fair criticism of McDonald's but not when your preference is Burger King or Subway :-)

To return to the origin of this side thread, it's not correct to imply that everyone hated MoS, it was quite well-loved by a lot of people and that love is earned by certain things it did well which should be acknowledged. It was not universally hated or even worse did not draw a universal "meh".

That's the root of the controversy I think, this drew a bimodal audience reaction, a lot of love and a lot of hate with very "meh" in between. So it's not correct to dismiss the movie as if it had either zero or merely marginal redeeming qualities.

:up: I don't disagree with anything in this post. I definitely don't mean to imply that everyone hated MoS.

Oh, and Subway for the win :D
 
Don't want to go off topic......but I found this amazing post on youtube on this video >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs39HGOd25c

Perfectly sums up how much substance this movie really had. It's a defense of the tornado scene.

Auron1Roxas2:

Clearly you didn't understand this scene at all and didn't even bother to pay attention. Here let me sum it up for you: Oh the complaints this scene gets! Drives me nuts. Hold on, this may be very long. Apologies in advance.
I love this scene. It is beautiful, well acted and heartbreaking. I hate that people miss the point of this scene. It seems like they watched a scene where a silly old man tried to save a dog and got killed while his super-powered son, who could have saved him, stood by and did nothing.

But that’s not what happened. Again, it’s all in the subtleties. When Jonathan steps out of the car and realizes everyone is in serious danger, he starts sending everyone for cover. He is very aware of Clark’s ability and need to save people. He knows darn well what his son will do if this is not played out just right. Clark will throw caution to the winds if someone is in danger of dying. It is his pattern, it’s who he is. So what does he do? He immediately tells Clark to get his mother to the underpass. He knows that entrusting Martha to Clark will keep him busy and out of the action. Because Clark would never risk his mother’s life. He helps the mother get her child out of the car because a) that’s what you do when you are a decent caring person and b) if he doesn’t do it, Clark will. As he heads to the underpass with the little girl and her mother, they are the last people still near the cars and away from the overpass. He must have felt that it worked perfectly. No one is in danger, they wait out the tornado with the shelter of the underpass, Clark’s safety is secure. This is what breaks my heart. Jonathan did everything right.

Until it all goes wrong. The dog is still in the car. Clark is heading out to get him, knowing he’s the one who could get hurt the least. Well, physically anyway. But Jonathan knows this could easily blow Clark’s cover if things go badly. His entire future is at stake. Being a father he is not willing to risk it. So what does he do? Again, he puts Clark in charge of another person, this time the little girl, knowing that Clark would never endanger her. To him, it is worth the risk of going into danger to keep his son out of the spotlight. Listen to his “No! No.” as he hands the child to Clark. This storm is a serious danger to Clark’s secret, not his body. Jonathan is desperate to keep his son safe. As any good father would do, he protected his son. He deliberately ran into danger to keep his son safe.

We all know what happens next. The part that gets me most is when Clark realizes there is no way his injured father will make it to the underpass before the tornado strikes. He sizes up the distance, and he looks behind him at the people. He’s fully aware of how many potential witnesses there are. But true to his pattern, when someone is going to die (especially his father) he is willing to risk it. He takes one step forward.
And here is where my hearts snaps in two. Jonathan knows his son inside and out. He knows exactly what he is thinking and what he has decided to do. So he holds up his hand to tell him no. It is worth it to him to give up his life to keep his son safe. Cue the tears.

But here is where many critics start to holler about the futility of the action and how stupid Jonathan was to sacrifice himself, and how stupid Clark was to let him. But was his sacrifice truly worth it? What did he gain? The answer is….time.
If you do the math based on the year Jonathan died on the tombstone, the fact that Clark was 33 at the time of the action, and the year the movie came out, Clark’s age at the time of the tornado was 17. That’s still pretty young, and legally considered a minor. The fear of the Kents and the reason they kept Clark’s abilities secret was because of what could happen if the truth came out. And yet, several times Jonathan himself told Clark that one day he would have to reveal himself to the world. “What is happening to you, one day you will see it as a blessing and when that day comes, you are going to have to decide whether to stand proud in front of the world….or not.” In the same conversation he told Clark that he had to believe Clark was sent here for a reason and Clark owed it to himself to find out why.

He told Clark he needed to decide what kind of man he wanted to be because that man, good or bad, one day would change the world. Martha corroborated this at the end of the film when she told Clark that his father always knew he was meant for greater things, and when the time came, his shoulders would carry the weight. Even Clark said he let his father die because Jonathan was convinced he had to wait. It was never Jonathan’s plan to hide Clark his entire life. But timing was essential. Too young, he may not be able to handle the pressures that would come with such a burden. Underage, he could easily be snatched up by the government and hidden away for testing, experimenting, exploitation, to be turned into a Winter Soldier version of secret government agent (doesn’t that make you shudder)! The Kents don’t have a legal leg to stand on when they claim the alien baby they found in a field is their son, it would be easy for the government to take him away and start applying pressure on such a young person to do what they deem right.

So what exactly did Jonathan’s sacrifice buy his son? It bought hm time. 16 years to grow and mature. 16 years to search far and wide for answers to who, where, and why. (You didn’t think he took all those far away jobs just for laying low purposes did you? He was searching.) 16 years and enough time to have better control of his powers, make contact with Jor-El and have a much better idea of what he should and can do for and in the world. 16 years to become the man who at the end of the film can declare that he is here to help, but insist that it has to be on his own terms with firmness and intractable determination. What did Jonathan provide his son? His entire future. Time to be the man he needed to be before he could truly show himself to the world. How can any father’s sacrifice be worthless when it provides all that? Jonathan made the right call. I admire that man. And I admire his son for understanding what he was trying to do, and making the most of the opportunity it granted him. Even if it hurt.

On a final note, I think it needs to be said that when Jonathan said “maybe” to his son after he saved the bus, he was saying that sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He said “maybe” because he himself was uncomfortable with the idea of sacrificing a bus load of children to keep his son’s secret. He’s not even sure what should have been done in the case of the bus, but he does know the fear he feels at the possibility his son will be exposed. And he knows that this time is very wrong to expose him. Several years later, it is still the wrong time. And Jonathan, while not completely on board to sacrifice children for his son, is totally fine with sacrificing himself.

He said there was more at stake than just his or Martha’s lives, and the lives of the people around them. He knows the benefit Clark can be for the entire world if this is handled right. But the timing is everything. So he sure put his money where his mouth was when he said maybe. He knew his life meant much less than what could be done in the future. What better father for a superhero, than one who understands self-sacrifice for the good of others, and stays true to his words?
 
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I read an analysis online that the tornado scene would have worked better if Dylan Sprayberry rather than Henry Cavill had played the role of Clark Kent.

ETA: LamboMan, I think that post actually confirms a criticism that I have made of the editing in MoS, Snyder didn't help us understand the right things. A lot of details are in the film but are ultimately missed because of the editing, camera angles, etc. I don't think a lot of people thought about the implications of Jonathan keeping Clark busy to keep him out of danger, a lot of it happens quickly.

There's a lot of quick cutting in MoS, other examples I've listed before are:
- The ship crash lands into the Kent farm, but only if you're fast enough to notice;
- Pete extends his hand in friendship to Clark at the end of the bullying scene, but only if you're fast enough to notice;
- Clark helps Lois off the helicopter, but only if you're fast enough to notice;
- Zod is the one doing most of the destruction in the final fight, but only if you're fast enough to notice;

I wonder if visual IQ and reaction time correlates with appreciation of MoS.
 
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That would be a very good argument had the journey of Clark becoming said man been there throughout the film. The problem with criticising people who have problems with that scene is there's no actual evidence that was the intended reasoning for that decision. If you looked at it from the perspective that it buys Clark time then yes it is a valid point, the problem is it's still an assumption because the film never follows that idea up with much else. Without a follow up it's just an idea, and perhaps one that wasn't even intended. Ideas aren't substance unless they are explored thoroughly, it's the same thing that happened with TDRK, it was a movie full of ideas but never settled on exploring them, instead it was throwing them at us leaving us to figure it out. There's a difference between a film that asks questions of its audience or is open to interpretation and one that assumes you know what's happening. If that was the intention of the tornado scene then frankly it doesn't make the scene or the movie any better, because without further exploration it can be counter argued that people are seeing things that don't exist and were never meant to exist.
 
I think you're misusing the word "popularity". Everyone and their mother knows McDonald's is highly processed junk that's not good for you. Transformers movies are almost universally known as horrible movies with tons of money-making CGI. The latest one had an 18% Rotten Tomato score and a 54% user score, which is exceptionally low (you can't say the audience loves it) yet it made more money than its predecessors. To call these things "popular" based solely on their sales figures is a hollow argument, which was the point I was making.

The reason these things sell so well is because they are easy, cheap, and satiate base desires. Not because they are "popular". I stand by my statement that using box office is not a good way to defend MoS.

There are many, many people skeptical of how BvS will turn out, but I have not seen a single person worry about how it will do at the box office.


Actually no... The latest TRANSFORMERS has made less than it's previous installments. Check BoxofficeMojo.

And again... BO is one of a few indicators about how a film is received by the wider audience outside of the hothouse environment of message boards and forums on the internet. If the point is to debate "quality" (subjective as it is) then I agree. BO may not be at all germane in the least. If one wants to make the claim that a film was more unpopular among the wider audience than it perhaps actually was, then BO is legitimate as a subject to bring up. Again, in case you missed it the first time, I don't think BO can be used as a great metric for "quality". But to gauge the audience's reaction to a film, whether they "liked" it? Yeah, BO can be brought up and is not out of bounds, especially for films like CBMs which fall much more towards the entertainment side of Arts and Entertainment.
 
THe tornando scene is stupid.

All it actually does is get rid of the person telling Clark to stay secret.

But then, Clark stays secret anyway... until his other father Jor tells him what to do.

That scene achieves nothing.

And what was the point of the "natural birth" and "free will" thing? Kal is constantly doing what other people tell him to do.
 
But the thing is, MOS did succeed, the numbers that I posted show that, is only a minority that were not satisfied. Dawn of the Planet of the Apes got the same Cinemascore (A-) and has an inferior BO so far ($509,484,803 Worldwide).

Look little DC fanboy... Guardians of the ****ing Galaxy is going to outgross Man of Steel. Just stop and think about that for a second.

Man of Steel is no "deeper" than any Marvel movie. It attempts to be, but it's all on the surface, the film makers don't understand how to dramatize the characters perspective and feelings. It's all telling and no showing. And when they do show, it contradicts the characters perspective. Go read FILM CRIT HULK's essay on Man of Steel and be enlightened.
 
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And what was the point of the "natural birth" and "free will" thing? Kal is constantly doing what other people tell him to do.

The Kryptonians were unable to adapt to changing conditions because they had a fixed programming. It was said that 1,000 years prior to the events of the movie Krypton had reached some state of perfection, and they clearly bought into their own BS.

However, from evolutionary theory, there is no such thing as the perfect genome, a genome is only as good as the environment it's adapted to, and the conditions on Krypton changed as they ran out of energy. They were unable to evolve, unable to adapt to those new conditions because they had reached some perfected state of evolution or so they believed. There are countless parallels to this in the real world, for example a lot of Americans are against constitutional amendments because they believe the constitution is already perfect.

This continues when Zod arrives on Earth. He actually has a lot of options as people have pointed out. For example he could keep Earth as it and keep superpowers... but all he cares about is restoring Krypton to what it was before, with a red sun and no superpowers, because he's incapable of visualising something different. He didn't even need to go to war with Kal-El, he didn't need the codex, he could have taken the Genesis chambers and his troop of 30 Kryptonians and founded a different colony using traditional reproduction... but that is "HERESY !" and so he is one-track focused on restoring the dead-end that was Krypton.

Guardians of the ****ing Galaxy is going to outgross Man of Steel.
I'm not sure if Marvel 10 is going to reach 668 million dollars. We'll have to wait and see.
 
Look little DC fanboy... Guardians of the ****ing Galaxy is going to outgross Man of Steel. Just stop and think about that for a second.

Man of Steel is no "deeper" than any Marvel movie. It attempts to be, but it's all on the surface, the film makers don't understand how to dramatize the characters perspective and feelings. It's all telling and no showing. And when they do show, it contradicts the characters perspective. Go read FILM CRIT HULK's essay on Man of Steel and be enlightened.

Lol, the first part of this post made me chuckle. And the second part is spot on. :up:

I hope they drop the pseudo-serious act for BvS.
 
It's born of the idea that serious = better. Again if he reads FILM CRIT HULKs Guardians of the Galaxy write up he will see that Guardians actually does a better job of dramatizing it's characters perspectives than Man of Steel. It just does it through comedy... not po-faced seriousness.
 
Actually no... The latest TRANSFORMERS has made less than it's previous installments. Check BoxofficeMojo.

And again... BO is one of a few indicators about how a film is received by the wider audience outside of the hothouse environment of message boards and forums on the internet. If the point is to debate "quality" (subjective as it is) then I agree. BO may not be at all germane in the least. If one wants to make the claim that a film was more unpopular among the wider audience than it perhaps actually was, then BO is legitimate as a subject to bring up. Again, in case you missed it the first time, I don't think BO can be used as a great metric for "quality". But to gauge the audience's reaction to a film, whether they "liked" it? Yeah, BO can be brought up and is not out of bounds, especially for films like CBMs which fall much more towards the entertainment side of Arts and Entertainment.

My mistake. Either way, it still made over a billion even after its predecessors were panned. Again, my point wasn't about the quality, but you don't seem to get that sales don't equate to popularity either. This debate is getting tiresome, so lets just end it here.

I'm not sure if Marvel 10 is going to reach 668 million dollars. We'll have to wait and see.

:nono: That's just distasteful. You do realize you're referring to Guardians of the Galaxy, a unknown team of outer space talking racoons and tree humanoids and not Iron Man 4, right?
 
Look little DC fanboy... Guardians of the ****ing Galaxy is going to outgross Man of Steel. Just stop and think about that for a second.

Wait... I thought Box Office was out of bounds when discussing a film's merits or qualities? :word:
 
Wait... I thought Box Office was out of bounds when discussing a film's merits or qualities? :word:

It is... i'm just playing him at his own game lol.

Groot and Rocket Raccoon are more endearing to audiences than bloody Superman. This is a problem. But it is well earned. Gunn managed to dramatize those characters feelings and perspectives better than Goyer dramatized Kal-El's feelings and perspectives.
 
It's born of the idea that serious = better. Again if he reads FILM CRIT HULKs Guardians of the Galaxy write up he will see that Guardians actually does a better job of dramatizing it's characters perspectives than Man of Steel. It just does it through comedy... not po-faced seriousness.

Hulk talked about how hard it is to make a movie funny, he brought up the quote that professional comedic re-writes typically succeed in only adding in three jokes. The jokes in GoTG are actually funny (some of them), which is a step up from Thor 2 and IM3 where the jokes were not funny, and that warrants praise.

Unfortunately, the plot is still extremely light as are the characters. There are movies funnier than GoTG with more depth, such as The Lego Movie, Mean Girls, Wedding Crashers, etc. Gunn succeeded in making a comedy where the jokes are actually a funny which is an achievement in and of itself, unfortunately, the movie still lacks depth.

A good analogy would be an action movie where the fight scenes are cool but one lacking in a good or coherent story. Can you think of any examples?
 
No he talks about how comedy is used as characterization. How the comedy is used to actually convey the characters feelings and perspectives. It's not just about being funny, it's about making the humour natural and using it well in a narrative way. He favourably compares it to films like Ghostbusters. Rightly so.

As for your last line? The Raid films i guess.
 
My mistake. Either way, it still made over a billion even after its predecessors were panned. Again, my point wasn't about the quality, but you don't seem to get that sales don't equate to popularity either. This debate is getting tiresome, so lets just end it here.



:nono: That's just distasteful.

Age of Extinction made $1 Billion? :huh:

@Endless:

GOTG is even more guilty of "tell and not show" than the entirety of MOS. The double standard is baffling as hell. To wit:

[BLACKOUT]We are TOLD about Quill's life in space and his time as part of Yondu's crew. We are TOLD about Drax's loss. We are TOLD about Ronan's problem with Xandar. We are TOLD about Gamora and her relationship with Thanos, and why she's suddenly turncoating on the Mad Titan. We are TOLD about the relationship between Nebula and Gamora. We are told about how now, suddenly, this group of near do wells is now going to act completely altruistic because, ya know, we need the heroes to fight the bad guys at the end.[/BLACKOUT] Maybe the slack is cut cuz GOTG is "fun" but to me, again, the double standard is clear as day.
 
:nono: That's just distasteful. You do realize you're referring to Guardians of the Galaxy, a unknown team of outer space talking racoons and tree humanoids and not Iron Man 4, right?

The GA isn't so dumb that Marvel still has no reputation with them. This is their 10th movie and they're running a single cinematic franchise. GoTG started with a stronger base than say, Iron Man 1 or Thor 1 did. It's going to get to 550 million or maybe 700 million according to The Endless based on the strength of the Marvel brand name. A lot of better movies (Edge of Tomorrow, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, etc) do less well due to lesser brands.

Would MoS have made more than 668 million if it had been a better movie? We can't say because there is zero correlation between quality and box office :-)
 
Sure did.

Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $243,136,930 23.5%
+ Foreign: $789,300,000 76.5%
= Worldwide: $1,032,436,930
 
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