Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[X Knight]

This. And if they change her name to, to something like Michelle, and it's only her initials that spell MJ, then there's really not much left of her at all.

if her name really is Michelle with the initials MJ, then that would be the final nail in the coffin for me. such a huge slap in the face of Mary Jane fans. why not just make her an original character named Michelle something?

kind of like how in Homecoming, we appear to have a blonde Betty Brant in HS who looks and acts more like SSM Sally Avril. so, why not just call the character.......Sally Avril?

 

[X Knight]

Meghan Markle probably looks more white than Zendaya. Her feet look like ginger roots unfortunately.

let's say they were casting for Storm in an X-Men reboot, and the final 2 actresses were down to Zendaya and Meghan ( take the age difference out ).

Who would I want them to cast for the role?

I'd want Zendaya, of course. Even if Meghan is the better actress, she looks nothing like the part, even if she dyed her hair white or wore a white wig. She wouldn't look like Storm from the comics, at all.

Zendaya could look the part. She would look more like Storm than Meghan would.

Conversely, if Zendaya and Meghan were the final 2 for the new MJ role, I'd want them to choose Meghan instead.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Funny enough, Zendaya actually was one of the final two actresses in the running, to play Storm in the last X-Men. She lost out to Alexandra Shipp.

 

[KalvinEllis]

exactly.

these characters, especially comic book characters ( since comics are a VISUAL medium ), have 2 identities. A visual identity ( how they look ) and character identity ( how they behave, their character type, etc. ).

If you change one identity, at least try to retain as much of the other one so that the character still feels familiar on some level. If you change both identities, then you've pretty much made a whole new character.

In Dean Cain's case, aside from him being half-Asian ( which, tbh, I didn't even know until I read it online much later - I didn't know he was half-Asian when I 1st saw him in Lois and Clark ), his Clark/Superman pretty much retained both the visual and character identity of the character.

let's take another example, MJ from the Ultimate cartoon show.

Ultimate show MJ retains the visual identity of the character - white, red hair, green eyes. So, at least she looks like classic MJ.

Her character identity was changed, though. They made her an aspiring journalist who wants to work for the Bugle. They basically transposed Peter's connection to the Bugle onto MJ. They basically transposed Lois Lane onto MJ.

So, from a character type perspective, she seems like a different character than comic MJ. But, hey, at least, she looks like MJ. You can immediately identify her as MJ.

Now, just imagine if they changed her visual identity, too. What if they made her blonde like Gwen? Or a short-haired brunette like Betty? What if they made her dress all punk-like with a Mohawk and nose ring? What if they made her Asian?

If they did any of that, they'd not only change her character identity, but her visual identity as well. And then, she might as well just be a different character, because she would neither look nor feel like MJ.

The thing is I understand people on both sides of the equation. I understand those who wanted the character's original appearance and personality to be preserved, and I also understand people who say she isn't defined by her physical appearance. What I don't understand is the argument that as long as they cast a talented and good-looking actress, everything will be fine. Dunst was talented and good-looking, and her MJ wasn't worth a ****, because the people behind the camera didn't know or didn't care what the Mary Jane character was about. It didn't matter that Kirsten was white, pretty, talented and had red hair in the movie, she was given bad writing and characterization, and her role didn't stand out at all. The same way it wouldn't matter that Zendaya is black, pretty, possibly talented and doesn't have red hair. I think that's what people should spend more time debating about, rather than her ethnicity. You said it all about both the character and visual identity, if the character both doesn't look, as well as act like Mary Jane, then she is Mary Jane in name only, like the Raimi version was. That's a much bigger concern than the skin color of the person playing her.

Another thing is even if she is written well, but she is a bookish, awkward, frumpy character, that still wouldn't feel like MJ. Tony Stark wasn't a nerdy, out of touch, laughing stock of a weapons developer who turned into a genius playboy billionaire after suffering a near-death experience. He always was a genius playboy billionaire before and after he was forced to build the Iron Man armor to save his life. What exactly is SO bad about Mary Jane Watson that they always choose to portray her in other media so 180 from how she is? Not counting the SSM cartoon of course. Is the notion that a geeky introverted guy gets it on with a hot extroverted chick THAT outdated?

 

[Scarlet Spider]

This is pretty much their last shot at getting MJ right for the forseeable future.

If Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige can't even get her right, I'm convinced no one ever will. LOL

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

if her name really is Michelle with the initials MJ, then that would be the final nail in the coffin for me. such a huge slap in the face of Mary Jane fans. why not just make her an original character named Michelle something?

I'd be so pissed. Would make much more sense to go through and have her be Michelle Gonzales, a minor supporting character no one cares about enough to protest the changes.

Funny enough, Zendaya actually was one of the final two actresses in the running, to play Storm in the last X-Men. She lost out to Alexandra Shipp.

Lucky her.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

She will probably be Michelle, with the awkward, nerdy look and brown hair. Then becomes Mary Jane, with the flaming red hair. I only didn't want Zendaya as MJ cause MJ is supposed to be a natural redhead. But Zendaya obviously wouldn't be.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

This is pretty much their last shot at getting MJ right for the forseeable future.

If Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige can't even get her right, I'm convinced no one ever will. LOL

Good thing there's the TSSM version t:

 

[X Knight]

Funny enough, Zendaya actually was one of the final two actresses in the running, to play Storm in the last X-Men. She lost out to Alexandra Shipp.

oh, I didn't know that.....lol.

and I just looked Alexandra up and she's bi-racial, too.

as an aside, I am glad more and more bi-racial actors and actresses are getting roles.

but that doesn't make them right for every role. Alexandra and Zendaya are both incredibly beautiful. and both would be good choices for Storm. but neither would be good choices for MJ.

and as another aside, Alexandra's Storm was wasted and written like crap in Apocalypse.

 

[X Knight]

Good thing there's the TSSM version t:

yep. it's a damn shame that show was cancelled before the story ended.

I would have loved to see how Peter and MJ's relationship played out and how they ended up together.

such a damn shame.

The thing is I understand people on both sides of the equation. I understand those who wanted the character's original appearance and personality to be preserved, and I also understand people who say she isn't defined by her physical appearance. What I don't understand is the argument that as long as they cast a talented and good-looking actress, everything will be fine. Dunst was talented and good-looking, and her MJ wasn't worth a ****, because the people behind the camera didn't know what the Mary Jane character was about. It didn't matter that Kirsten was white, pretty, talented and had red hair in the movie, she was given bad writing and characterization, and her role didn't stand out at all. The same way it wouldn't matter that Zendaya is black, pretty, possibly talented and doesn't have red hair. I think that's what people should spend more time debating about, rather than her ethnicity. You said it all about both the character and visual identity, if the character both doesn't look, as well as act like Mary Jane, then she is Mary Jane in name only, like the Raimi version was. That's a much bigger concern than the skin color of the person playing her.

Another thing is even if she is written well, but she is a bookish, awkward, frumpy character, that still wouldn't feel like MJ. Tony Stark wasn't a nerdy, out of touch, laughing stock of a weapons developer who turned into a genius playboy billionaire after suffering a near-death experience. He always was a genius playboy billionaire before and after he was forced to build the Iron Man armor to save his life. What exactly is SO bad about Mary Jane Watson that they always choose to portray her in other media so 180 from how she is? Not counting the SSM cartoon of course. Is the notion that a geeky introverted guy gets it on with a hot extroverted chick THAT outdated?

well said, man. well said.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

oh, I didn't know that.....lol.

and I just looked Alexandra up and she's bi-racial, too.

as an aside, I am glad more and more bi-racial actors and actresses are getting roles.

but that doesn't make them right for every role. Alexandra and Zendaya are both incredibly beautiful. and both would be good choices for Storm. but neither would be good choices for MJ.

and as another aside, Alexandra's Storm was wasted and written like crap in Apocalypse.

So were several other characters. Actually Apocalypse overall was simply underwhelming, if not bad.

That's cause Fox and not Marvel

 

[X Knight]

So were several other characters. Actually Apocalypse overall was simply underwhelming, if not bad.

That's cause Fox and not Marvel

yeah. Apocalypse just sucked overall. they wasted Storm, Psylocke, and Jubilee!!

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Good thing there's the TSSM version t:

It's not the same, though. MJ deserves a proper live action portrayal of her.

 

[X Knight]

It's not the same, though. MJ deserves a proper live action portrayal of her.

this.

that's why I was really looking forward to Marvel's take. I figured they at least would give her character a proper portrayal. especially after the near perfect casting for Peter. I was really hoping they'd do the same for MJ. An actress who I could look at in a set pic and say "Yes!! That really is MJ come to life!!"

now......though........that doesn't seem to be the case.........

 

[Oscorp]

this.

that's why I was really looking forward to Marvel's take. I figured they at least would give her character a proper portrayal. especially after the near perfect casting for Peter. I was really hoping they'd do the same for MJ. An actress who I could look at in a set pic and say "Yes!! That really is MJ come to life!!"

now......though........that doesn't seem to be the case.........

Zendaya could've been that MJ if they didn't decide to make her "dry and awkward" and dress her like they've apparently done.

That's if this Zendaya as MJ rumor is true, though. It's not confirmed yet.

 

[X Knight]

Zendaya could've been that MJ if they didn't decide to make her "dry and awkward" and dress her like they've apparently done.

That's if this Zendaya as MJ rumor is true, though. It's not confirmed yet.

even so, it still wouldn't be comic MJ come to life, which is what I wanted to see.

but, yeah, I'd be way more accepting of the change if Z's MJ didn't look so frumpy and plain and if her character were described as fun loving, playful, sassy who's actually a caring person inside.

and yeah, we don't know if the rumor is indeed true. but we've been speculating Z is MJ since she was first cast, and now it just seems more likely.

 

[PeterBenParker]

The longer they go without debunking it, the more and more likely it is (which it is ).

 

[marijuanawatson]

The thing is I understand people on both sides of the equation. I understand those who wanted the character's original appearance and personality to be preserved, and I also understand people who say she isn't defined by her physical appearance. What I don't understand is the argument that as long as they cast a talented and good-looking actress, everything will be fine. Dunst was talented and good-looking, and her MJ wasn't worth a ****, because the people behind the camera didn't know what the Mary Jane character was about. It didn't matter that Kirsten was white, pretty, talented and had red hair in the movie, she was given bad writing and characterization, and her role didn't stand out at all. The same way it wouldn't matter that Zendaya is black, pretty, possibly talented and doesn't have red hair. I think that's what people should spend more time debating about, rather than her ethnicity. You said it all about both the character and visual identity, if the character both doesn't look, as well as act like Mary Jane, then she is Mary Jane in name only, like the Raimi version was. That's a much bigger concern than the skin color of the person playing her.

Another thing is even if she is written well, but she is a bookish, awkward, frumpy character, that still wouldn't feel like MJ. Tony Stark wasn't a nerdy, out of touch, laughing stock of a weapons developer who turned into a genius playboy billionaire after suffering a near-death experience. He always was a genius playboy billionaire before and after he was forced to build the Iron Man armor to save his life. What exactly is SO bad about Mary Jane Watson that they always choose to portray her in other media so 180 from how she is? Not counting the SSM cartoon of course. Is the notion that a geeky introverted guy gets it on with a hot extroverted chick THAT outdated?

PRAISE THIS POST!!!!!! Mary Jane is wonderfully written complex cool character who does not need to be changed. Keep her the way she is. This my theory/opinion on this. I think this explains it well.

"Okay, one more thing about this, because I don’t want to ruin my day–for the past decade, us Mary Jane fans have suffered through Marvel trying to split them up, under the transparently ****-shaming rationale that Peter ‘shouldn’t’ be with a glamorous model who cares about fashion and style and emotions–who is, to use a loaded term, ‘girly.’

Instead, they tone-deafly try to pair Peter with ‘geek girls’ who are ‘as smart as he is’ (and Mary Jane isn’t, we’re literally told) and not as ‘unattainable’ as MJ (despite the fact that they’re drawn to be just as attractive). In fact, these characters–from Jill Stacy to Carlie Cooper, are in fact more fantasy objects than MJ, who has many human failings, shades of gray, three-dimensional personality traits, etc. Meanwhile, Carlie Cooper dresses like Slave Leia because she is such a nerd lol.


And now the movieverse’s solution to that is to turn Mary Jane herself into one of these ‘gamer gurl’ sex object fantasies who doesn’t care about ‘nonsense’ like make-up or nice clothes, but still is easily a ten. Marvel–just because you jerk off to a woman wearing glasses doesn’t mean you’re not jerking off.

It’s frankly disappointing and outright hypocritical to do this ******** ‘geek girls are better than stuck-up *****es’ thing, considering that it’s not like Scarlet Johannson doesn’t wear make-up or Elizabeth Olsen doesn’t dress nice.

Now there are plenty of great female characters in the Marvel Universe who are geeks, or grungy, or what have you–even ones that are love interests to Peter. But turning MJ into one is sexist and an insult to the character, her fans, and what she represents."

 

[marijuanawatson]

oh, I didn't know that.....lol.

and I just looked Alexandra up and she's bi-racial, too.

as an aside, I am glad more and more bi-racial actors and actresses are getting roles.

but that doesn't make them right for every role. Alexandra and Zendaya are both incredibly beautiful. and both would be good choices for Storm. but neither would be good choices for MJ.

and as another aside, Alexandra's Storm was wasted and written like crap in Apocalypse.

True. This is a little off-topic, but let's not forget that Storm looks like this in the comics

But Fox went for bi-racial actress while Storm is not bi-racial and pretty much has a dark/medium skin tone. Halle Berry too. It seems to be a trend right now when Hollywood cast black girls they look for the half white/light skinned ones. Kiersey Clemons, Candice Patton, Zendaya, Alexandra, etc. I'm glad that at least some black girls are being represented but damn they're more black girls than bi-racial/light skinned ones. Colorism is wild, man. Show us some dark skinned girls, please.

 

[marijuanawatson]

One of Zendaya's K.C Undercover co-stars tweeted this.


https://***********/kararoyster/status/767829921259327488

Doesn't really actually confirm anything but still.

 

[X Knight]

PRAISE THIS POST!!!!!! Mary Jane is wonderfully written complex cool character who does not need to be changed. Keep her the way she is. This my theory/opinion on this. I think this explains it well.

"Okay, one more thing about this, because I don’t want to ruin my day–for the past decade, us Mary Jane fans have suffered through Marvel trying to split them up, under the transparently ****-shaming rationale that Peter ‘shouldn’t’ be with a glamorous model who cares about fashion and style and emotions–who is, to use a loaded term, ‘girly.’

Instead, they tone-deafly try to pair Peter with ‘geek girls’ who are ‘as smart as he is’ (and Mary Jane isn’t, we’re literally told) and not as ‘unattainable’ as MJ (despite the fact that they’re drawn to be just as attractive). In fact, these characters–from Jill Stacy to Carlie Cooper, are in fact more fantasy objects than MJ, who has many human failings, shades of gray, three-dimensional personality traits, etc. Meanwhile, Carlie Cooper dresses like Slave Leia because she is such a nerd lol.


And now the movieverse’s solution to that is to turn Mary Jane herself into one of these ‘gamer gurl’ sex object fantasies who doesn’t care about ‘nonsense’ like make-up or nice clothes, but still is easily a ten. Marvel–just because you jerk off to a woman wearing glasses doesn’t mean you’re not jerking off.

It’s frankly disappointing and outright hypocritical to do this ******** ‘geek girls are better than stuck-up *****es’ thing, considering that it’s not like Scarlet Johannson doesn’t wear make-up or Elizabeth Olsen doesn’t dress nice.

Now there are plenty of great female characters in the Marvel Universe who are geeks, or grungy, or what have you–even ones that are love interests to Peter. But turning MJ into one is sexist and an insult to the character, her fans, and what she represents."

and besides, why turn MJ into Peter? Why make the love interest so similar? That's not very interesting.

Ultimate MJ sort of did that by making MJ smart ( and there's nothing wrong with that ) and a fellow nerd. but she wasn't exactly a total dweeb/geek, either. and she was still cute, pretty, and attractive ( in a girl next door kind of way ). And Ultimate MJ never had to go through a transformation from ugly duckling to stunning beauty.

In Homecoming, she's quiet, awkward, and bookish and dresses down. She looks very........blah and plain and unassuming.

You know who that sounds like? Pre spider bite Peter! Peter is supposed to go through a "zero to hero" story arc. not MJ!!

It's like they said "In this movie, Peter is already Spider-Man. We're not going to do a linear origin again. So we need to give the zero-to-hero transformation arc to another character. I know!! Let's give it to MJ!"

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Good thing there's the TSSM version t:

This applies to pretty much anything. That show is wonderful.

Storm was wasted and written like crap in Apocalypse.

they wasted Storm, Psylocke, and Jubilee!!

I was so mad that Jubilee even appeared. Why show her if you aren't going to use her? Smh. Hopefully Storm gets a bigger role in future films.

Sorry for going OT.

 

[KalvinEllis]

PRAISE THIS POST!!!!!! Mary Jane is wonderfully written complex cool character who does not need to be changed. Keep her the way she is. This my theory/opinion on this. I think this explains it well.

"Okay, one more thing about this, because I don’t want to ruin my day–for the past decade, us Mary Jane fans have suffered through Marvel trying to split them up, under the transparently ****-shaming rationale that Peter ‘shouldn’t’ be with a glamorous model who cares about fashion and style and emotions–who is, to use a loaded term, ‘girly.’

Instead, they tone-deafly try to pair Peter with ‘geek girls’ who are ‘as smart as he is’ (and Mary Jane isn’t, we’re literally told) and not as ‘unattainable’ as MJ (despite the fact that they’re drawn to be just as attractive). In fact, these characters–from Jill Stacy to Carlie Cooper, are in fact more fantasy objects than MJ, who has many human failings, shades of gray, three-dimensional personality traits, etc. Meanwhile, Carlie Cooper dresses like Slave Leia because she is such a nerd lol.


And now the movieverse’s solution to that is to turn Mary Jane herself into one of these ‘gamer gurl’ sex object fantasies who doesn’t care about ‘nonsense’ like make-up or nice clothes, but still is easily a ten. Marvel–just because you jerk off to a woman wearing glasses doesn’t mean you’re not jerking off.

It’s frankly disappointing and outright hypocritical to do this ******** ‘geek girls are better than stuck-up *****es’ thing, considering that it’s not like Scarlet Johannson doesn’t wear make-up or Elizabeth Olsen doesn’t dress nice.

Now there are plenty of great female characters in the Marvel Universe who are geeks, or grungy, or what have you–even ones that are love interests to Peter. But turning MJ into one is sexist and an insult to the character, her fans, and what she represents."

Preach! And Carlie Cooper was basically a Patty Spivot clone anyway.

 

[X Knight]

This applies to pretty much anything. That show is wonderful.





I was so mad that Jubilee even appeared. Why show her if you aren't going to use her? Smh. Hopefully Storm gets a bigger role in future films.

Sorry for going OT.

Jubilee.....didn't even user her powers......ONCE!! smh.

 

[marijuanawatson]

and besides, why turn MJ into Peter? Why make the love interest so similar? That's not very interesting.

Ultimate MJ sort of did that by making MJ smart ( and there's nothing wrong with that ) and a fellow nerd. but she wasn't exactly a total dweeb/geek, either. and she was still cute, pretty, and attractive ( in a girl next door kind of way ). And Ultimate MJ never had to go through a transformation from ugly duckling to stunning beauty.

In Homecoming, she's quiet, awkward, and bookish and dresses down. She looks very........blah and plain and unassuming.

You know who that sounds like? Pre spider bite Peter! Peter is supposed to go through a "zero to hero" story arc. not MJ!!

It's like they said "In this movie, Peter is already Spider-Man. We're not going to do a linear origin again. So we need to give the zero-to-hero transformation arc to another character. I know!! Let's give it to MJ!"

Nailed it on the head. This change is so pointless and unnecessary, tbh. MJ does not need to be changed. When you think about it, we've never had an accurate true portrayal of MJ on screen and it's sad that it's looks like they're ****ing it up.