Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[X Knight]

Nailed it on the head. This change is so pointless and unnecessary, tbh. MJ does not need to be changed. When you think about it, we've never had an accurate true portrayal of MJ on screen and it's sad that it's looks like they're ****ing it up.

and I liked that the nerd got the beauty in the end - that's what I liked about the classic pairing of Peter and MJ.

and, if they do the zero-to-hero arc with MJ, will they still do the "façade" angle ( which I find infinitely more interesting )?

and if they still do the façade angle, then that begs the question - who's the real MJ.

she'll go from one opposite end of the spectrum to the other. but then we learn the "outgoing beauty" persona is merely a façade? Then who is the real MJ?

that's just so.......backwards and upside down.

Most likely, they'll probably just drop the whole façade angle which is a shame.

the façade/mask theme should be the thread that ties all these characters in HS together. Everyone wears a mask. Peter does, literally. MJ does figuratively. As does Flash ( show he's actually sensitive behind the bully front ). And they could write an arc for Liz.

 

[PeterBenParker]

the façade/mask theme should be the thread that ties all these characters in HS together. Everyone wears a mask. Peter does, literally. MJ does figuratively. As does Flash ( show he's actually sensitive behind the bully front ). And they could write an arc for Liz.

At least they touched on that in TASM, which despite being another limited usage of him, blew Raimi's generic bully 101 Flash out of the water.

 

[X Knight]

At least they touched on that in TASM, which despite being another limited usage of him, blew Raimi's generic bully 101 Flash out of the water.

yeah. they did.

and they did in SSM as well. especially with him getting into drama to impress Sha-Shan.

they could actually have adopted that into the new Flash ( he's a big bully jock but deep down, he's a softie who has an interest in drama ).

 

[Dark Raven]

The thing is I understand people on both sides of the equation. I understand those who wanted the character's original appearance and personality to be preserved, and I also understand people who say she isn't defined by her physical appearance. What I don't understand is the argument that as long as they cast a talented and good-looking actress, everything will be fine. Dunst was talented and good-looking, and her MJ wasn't worth a ****, because the people behind the camera didn't know or didn't care what the Mary Jane character was about. It didn't matter that Kirsten was white, pretty, talented and had red hair in the movie, she was given bad writing and characterization, and her role didn't stand out at all. The same way it wouldn't matter that Zendaya is black, pretty, possibly talented and doesn't have red hair. I think that's what people should spend more time debating about, rather than her ethnicity. You said it all about both the character and visual identity, if the character both doesn't look, as well as act like Mary Jane, then she is Mary Jane in name only, like the Raimi version was. That's a much bigger concern than the skin color of the person playing her.

Another thing is even if she is written well, but she is a bookish, awkward, frumpy character, that still wouldn't feel like MJ. Tony Stark wasn't a nerdy, out of touch, laughing stock of a weapons developer who turned into a genius playboy billionaire after suffering a near-death experience. He always was a genius playboy billionaire before and after he was forced to build the Iron Man armor to save his life. What exactly is SO bad about Mary Jane Watson that they always choose to portray her in other media so 180 from how she is? Not counting the SSM cartoon of course. Is the notion that a geeky introverted guy gets it on with a hot extroverted chick THAT outdated?

Great post.

But when people say that MJ isn't defined by her physical appearance, what happens when her personality is changed? Then do they argue that MJ isn't defined by her personality either. And then if they change her name, do they argue that MJ isn't defined by her name? And if they even change her initials to something like TC, do they argue that MJ isn't even defined by her initials?

So in the end, what is "MJ" even defined by if there's nothing left of her?

 

[KalvinEllis]

Great post.

But when people say that MJ isn't defined by her physical appearance, what happens when her personality is changed? Then do they argue that MJ isn't defined by her personality either. And then if they change her name, do they argue that MJ isn't defined by her name? And if they even change her initials to something like TC, do they argue that MJ isn't even defined by her initials?

So in the end, what is "MJ" even defined by if there's nothing left of her?

Well said, Raven. Well said.

 

[X Knight]

Great post.

But when people say that MJ isn't defined by her physical appearance, what happens when her personality is changed? Then do they argue that MJ isn't defined by her personality either. And then if they change her name, do they argue that MJ isn't defined by her name? And if they even change her initials to something like TC, do they argue that MJ isn't even defined by her initials?

So in the end, what is "MJ" even defined by if there's nothing left of her?

exactly!

 

[WarriorDreamer]

Moving on from Mary Jane being played by a black girl thing (to that I'm not sure why both MJ and Liz need to be black), what I'm wondering is why MJ is even being introduced this early since she is normally introduced in Peters life later?

 

[Dark Raven]

When no-one is defined by anything anymore, that's where we could get to the point where Marvel and Sony don't even need to make a Spider-Man film. They could just point to a Planet of the Apes sequel and say that this is the new Spidey film, since it's not the characters, personality, appearance or names that actually defined any of it. And it doesn't matter that it's distributed by Fox, because Sony and Marvel aren't defined by their names either.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be a film, since even moving pictures shouldn't define a movie. It could just be a Planet of the Apes lunchbox that is the new Spidey film.

 

[X Knight]

Moving on from Mary Jane being played by a black girl thing (to that I'm not sure why both MJ and Liz need to be black), what I'm wondering is why MJ is even being introduced this early since she is normally introduced in Peters life later?

Ultimate comic and show as well as SSM show all had MJ in HS.

so, it's not unprecedented.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

When no-one is defined by anything anymore, that's where we could get to the point where Marvel and Sony don't even need to make a Spider-Man film. They could just point to a Planet of the Apes sequel and say that this is the new Spidey film, since it's not the characters, personality, appearance or names that actually defined any of it. And it doesn't matter that it's distributed by Fox, because Sony and Marvel aren't defined by their names either.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be a film, since even moving pictures shouldn't define a movie. It could just be a Planet of the Apes lunchbox that is the new Spidey film.

Yeah. People saying 'get over her race' and 'characters arent defined by race', etc. Well try, complete physical change, name change, complete 180 degrees character personality change, most likely background change, and more.

To the point where there is NOTHING left from the comics, not even the name.

Not sure why film is so reluctant to portray Mary Jane. They tried to make MJ a tomboy with Shailene. Its strange. Movies have gotten Catwoman right, they've gotten Harley Quinn right, they've gotten Gwen Stacy right, they've gotten Wonder Woman, Emma Frost, Lois Lane, Carol Ferris and Black Widow pretty comics accurate. Why can't they seem to get Mary Jane right?

Why is she such a difficult character to crack?

 

[WarriorDreamer]

Ultimate comic and show as well as SSM show all had MJ in HS.

so, it's not unprecedented.

Yeah I know but with her being the female lead it is coming across that she will be in Peters life from the beginning.

 

[X Knight]

Yeah. People saying 'get over her race' and 'characters arent defined by race', etc. Well try, complete physical change, name change, complete 180 degrees character personality change, most likely background change, and more.

To the point where there is NOTHING left from the comics, not even the name.

Not sure why film is so reluctant to portray Mary Jane. They tried to make MJ a tomboy with Shailene. Its strange. Movies have gotten Catwoman right, they've gotten Harley Quinn right, they've gotten Gwen Stacy right, they've gotten Wonder Woman, Emma Frost and Black Widow pretty comics accurate. Why can't they seem to get Mary Jane right?

Why is she such a difficult character to crack?

exactly!

 

[X Knight]

Yeah I know but with her being the female lead it is coming across that she will be in Peters life from the beginning.

well, technically, Liz seems to be the main female lead in this film.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Ultimate comic and show as well as SSM show all had MJ in HS.

so, it's not unprecedented.

As did the Raimi trilogy.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yeah. People saying 'get over her race' and 'characters arent defined by race', etc. Well try, complete physical change, name change, complete 180 degrees character personality change, most likely background change, and more.

To the point where there is NOTHING left from the comics, not even the name.

Not sure why film is so reluctant to portray Mary Jane. They tried to make MJ a tomboy with Shailene. Its strange. Movies have gotten Catwoman right, they've gotten Harley Quinn right, they've gotten Gwen Stacy right, they've gotten Wonder Woman, Emma Frost, Lois Lane, Carol Ferris and Black Widow pretty comics accurate. Why can't they seem to get Mary Jane right?

Why is she such a difficult character to crack?

Yeah, completely agree.

This version of MJ is almost like how Fox approached the last Fantastic Four film. The first couple of Tim Story films weren't quite right, so instead of being more faithful, Fox decide to change it even further.

If Marvel decided that we've already seen a version of something before, then why did they decide to go more faithful for the Netflix Daredevil series on the whole? They could've completely changed his character if they wanted since we already got a blind lawyer version from Fox before with Ben Affleck.

It should've been the most faithful adaptation of Mary Jane, showing how it's really done. If they wanted to do a What If type version later on then they could've done one once they actually nailed MJ correctly.

 

[Chesterfield]

When no-one is defined by anything anymore, that's where we could get to the point where Marvel and Sony don't even need to make a Spider-Man film. They could just point to a Planet of the Apes sequel and say that this is the new Spidey film, since it's not the characters, personality, appearance or names that actually defined any of it. And it doesn't matter that it's distributed by Fox, because Sony and Marvel aren't defined by their names either.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be a film, since even moving pictures shouldn't define a movie. It could just be a Planet of the Apes lunchbox that is the new Spidey film.

So because of a race change (black) you've gone to the extreme view of unrecognisability by comparing and using planet of the apes as your choice for example. Wow...interesting.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

As did the Raimi trilogy.

Yeah I know, I was just hoping they'd do something different and have her introduced later.

Ah well, doesn't matter much. I just hope they don't turn her into a black Carlie Cooper! haha.

(P.S I'm not being racist. I'm half black myself.)

 

[Dark Raven]

So because of a race change (black) you've gone to the extreme view of unrecognisability by comparing and using planet of the apes as your choice for example. Wow...interesting.

So, because you've just picked up on one element (race change to black) that people are complaining about, you've gone to the extreme view of saying that it's just the race change that people think makes her unrecognisable and ignoring everything else. Wow... interesting.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

It should've been the most faithful adaptation of Mary Jane, showing how it's really done. If they wanted to do a What If type version later on then they could've done one once they actually nailed MJ correctly.

Exactly. Yet again they've gone for Peter being white, into Science, decides to wear a costume, etc.

They could have called him Perry, been Caribbean American and been the selfish school jock until he learns responsibility. He could have been bitten by a scorpion instead. Then at first he wears an all white furry costume calling himself the Snowman, until he decides that is silly and changes it to Spider-Man.

Why didn't they do that? Because thats not the comics. Because thats not the icon we know and love. Because even though Peters been done before, there are still more adventures to explore.

We have yet to see Mary Jane Watson. In the Raimi series she was a Liz/Gwen/MJ hybrid. They could make extreme changes later down in the line, in the 5th or 10th reboot.

 

[Chesterfield]

So, because you've just picked up on one element (race change to black) that people are complaining about, you've gone to the extreme view of saying that it's just the race change that people think makes her unrecognisable and ignoring everything else. Wow... interesting.

Sorry, but your poor attempt at deflection doesn't take away from the fact that your own words make you sound racist as hell. Be sure to stock up on your fairy non bio.

 

[Dark Raven]

Sorry, but your poor attempt at deflection doesn't take away from the fact that your own words make you sound racist as hell. Be sure to stock up on your fairy non bio.

No. You're the one who has twisted my words in your attempt to brand people as racist.

I picked Planet of the Apes completely randomly because it was playing on the TV. It could've been any film at all. You are the one who has tried to link it to being black, when that isn't the issue at all. It sounds more like, because of your weak attempt to connect the two, that it's more of deflection on your part of the actual issue, which is to do with if you take away everything (physical appearance, character, personality, name etc) from something to the point that there is nothing left, then how can you even call it that character?

And the point of taking another film, whatever film that is, and pointing to that as the new Spider-Man film is that if nothing has to define the character anymore, then you don't even have to have the film or anything about it requiring the same name. I could take another thing on TV right now, eg NCIS, and say that this is the new Spider-Man film if nothing (physical appearance of anyone, personality, names etc) has to even define it.

But of course you missed (or ignored) the whole point of the post and instead focused on linking being black (which I didn't even mention) and planet of the apes just to push your own agenda of branding someone else as racist. I think your linking of the two sounds more racist in fact.

 

[harryoscop]

Sorry, but your poor attempt at deflection doesn't take away from the fact that your own words make you sound racist as hell. Be sure to stock up on your fairy non bio.

Wow, seriously, dude?

 

[Chesterfield]

No. You're the one who has twisted my words in your attempt to brand people as racist.

I picked Planet of the Apes completely randomly because it was playing on the TV. It could've been any film at all. You are the one who has tried to link it to being black, when that isn't the issue at all. It sounds more like, because of your weak attempt to connect the two, that it's more of deflection on your part of the actual issue, which is to do with if you take away everything (physical appearance, character, personality, name etc) from something to the point that there is nothing left, then how can you even call it that character?

And the point of taking another film, whatever film that is, and pointing to that as the new Spider-Man film is that if nothing has to define the character anymore, then you don't even have to have the film or anything about it requiring the same name. I could take another thing on TV right now, eg NCIS, and say that this is the new Spider-Man film if nothing (physical appearance of anyone, personality, names etc) has to even define it.

But of course you missed (or ignored) the whole point of the post and instead focused on linking being black (which I didn't even mention) and planet of the apes just to push your own agenda of branding someone else as racist. I think your linking of the two sounds more racist in fact.

You're protesting too much; which you can do all you like BUT you picked planet of the apes to get your "point" across...randomly because it was on your TV? How original. I'm not branding people as racists, I'm speaking directly and referring to you alone. The fact is you didn't need to say, "black" in reference because we all know what the root cause of the/your issue is. What you did or didn't intend is irrelevant. The fact of the matter also is there aren't any words to twist. You worded what you wrote with crystal clarity and in doing so painted yourself looking like a racist; linking Zendaya's casting amongst other things to planet of the apes.

 

[Chesterfield]

Wow, seriously, dude?

Yes. Seriously. I don't think I'm overreacting and I think or at least hope people are considerate enough to see how some people may find what was written to be offensive.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

You're protesting too much; which you can do all you like BUT you picked planet of the apes to get your "point" across...randomly because it was on your TV? How original. I'm not branding people as racists, I'm speaking directly and referring to you alone. The fact is you didn't need to say, "black" in reference because we all know what the root cause of the/your issue is. What you did or didn't intend is irrelevant. The fact of the matter also is there aren't any words to twist. You worded what you wrote with crystal clarity and in doing so painted yourself looking like a racist; linking Zendaya's casting amongst other things to planet of the apes.

Planet of the apes was just a random comparison. It could have been any random film. It was in reference to changing every single thing. Any moron would have guessed that. Don't drag race into it. I'm mixed raced and wasn't offended.