Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[Dark Raven]

Mary Jane Watson is my favorite character in the Spider-Man mythos. And, personally, based on the photos I've seen of her, I get way more of a MJ vibe from her than I ever did from that awful Kirsten Dunst... I didn't like Dunst as MJ any more than Dunst liked playing MJ.

She looks way more like John Romita's art than Dunst ever did.

Zendaya looks Brazilian there. I think it's the eyebrows.

So excited to see what she can bring to the role. Just hope that the "Michele/Michelle J____" thing doesn't turn out to be true 'cause that'd be a bummer. Really hoping she is Mary Jane.

If that is the case, then she's not even really Mary Jane but just MJIINO (MJ in initial only).

 

[X Knight]

Mary Jane Watson is my favorite character in the Spider-Man mythos. And, personally, based on the photos I've seen of her, I get way more of a MJ vibe from her than I ever did from that awful Kirsten Dunst... I didn't like Dunst as MJ any more than Dunst liked playing MJ.

She looks way more like John Romita's art than Dunst ever did.

and the ironic thing is......

in that pic, she DOES give off an MJ vibe.

if she looked like that in the set pics ( with perhaps a touch more shade of red in her hair ), and if her character had been described "fun loving, playful, sassy, flirty, zingy one liners," I would think there would be far less ******** and gnashing of teeth here.

I know that I certainly wouldn't be complaining as much, if Z's MJ looked like that, and had a personality more in line with classic MJ, and had been clearly identified as Mary Jane Watson, not "Michelle."

Now, some will say, have faith and wait till the end. she'll look like that by the end. That may or may not be true. But, why couldn't she just look like that from the start?

Why did they have to take that gorgeous girl up top and change her into this.......

 

[Dark Raven]

and the ironic thing is......

in that pic, she DOES give off an MJ vibe.

if she looked like that in the set pics ( with perhaps a touch more shade of red in her hair ), and if her character had been described "fun loving, playful, sassy, flirty, zingy one liners," I would think there would be far less ******** and gnashing of teeth here.

I know that I certainly wouldn't be complaining as much, if Z's MJ looked like that, and had a personality more in line with classic MJ, and had been clearly identified as Mary Jane Watson, not "Michelle."

Now, some will say, have faith and wait till the end. she'll look like that by the end. That may or may not be true. But, why couldn't she just look like that from the start?

Why did they have to take that gorgeous girl up top and change her into this.......

Yeah. I agree. And as I and others have said before, we don't really to see her go through this particular arc just to become the MJ everyone knows at the end. We don't want MJ Begins. We don't want this "She's All That"/ Sandy from Grease arc because that's not fitting for Mary Jane. If anything, it should be a Cordelia Chase arc, which is the exact opposite.

 

[X Knight]

Hey, X Knight, here's one of those links:


http://www.vulture.com/2016/08/zendaya-is-playing-an-iconic-spider-man-role.html

thanks!!

 

[X Knight]

MJ isn't frumpy is the problem. She's not someone who blossoms into herself. Not to mention it sends a terrible message

Yeah. I agree. And as I and others have said before, we don't really to see her go through this particular arc just to become the MJ everyone knows at the end. We don't want MJ Begins. We don't want this "She's All That"/ Sandy from Grease arc because that's not fitting for Mary Jane. If anything, it should be a Cordelia Chase arc, which is the exact opposite.

exactly.

 

[Sarcastic Fan]

Yeah. I agree. And as I and others have said before, we don't really to see her go through this particular arc just to become the MJ everyone knows at the end. We don't want MJ Begins. We don't want this "She's All That"/ Sandy from Grease arc because that's not fitting for Mary Jane. If anything, it should be a Cordelia Chase arc, which is the exact opposite.

Except MJ was never a mean girl that became a nicer person. That was Liz Allan.

 

[X Knight]

Equating the change in MJ's hair color to a hypothetical gender swap of the character, or a fat bald Superman who uses a jetpack, easily rank as some of the most laughable things I've read in this section.

Never change, Spidey boards

well, some of it is sarcastic exaggeration to make a point. like my fat, bald jetpack Superman example.

but here's a much more realistic example.

let's say the new Peter Parker starts out as a blond, confident, popular HS baseball player who then gets bit by the spider. After he becomes Spider-Man, he starts studying up about spiders, which leads to increased interest in biology and chemistry. Peter realizes science is actually his true passion, and he starts neglecting his athletic pursuits. He also starts losing friends from the "jock crowd" and starts making friends amongst the geeks.

To go with his newfound interest in science, Peter also starts changing his appearance to make a "clean break" from the Peter of the past. He dyes his hair brunette. he starts wearing glasses, and he starts dressing more conservatively.

by the end of the film, he starts to look and act more like "classic" Peter.

now, would you want to see a Spider-Man movie where Peter goes through that character arc?

I certainly wouldn't. Cuz it doesn't even sound like Peter Parker at all.

it's a story arc that doesn't make sense for the character, because it makes him start out in a position where he's the total opposite of what he's supposed to be.

it's essentially a reinvention of the character - to the point where it feels like a totally different character.

And if such a scenario isn't acceptable for Peter, then why is it ok for something very similar to happen to MJ?

because with the direction they seem to be taking MJ, they are giving her a story arc that doesn't fit the character, making her start as the total opposite in terms of looks and personality so that she can "transform" into the more familiar and classic MJ by the end.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Except MJ was never a mean girl that became a nicer person. That was Liz Allan.

MJ was alot like Cordy. She was never mean to Peter though. But liz was basically Harmony

 

[Sarcastic Fan]

MJ was alot like Cordy. She was never mean to Peter though. But liz was basically Harmony

Yeah, I can't agree with that at all. Liz was the Cordy. I don't think there's a character in Buffy you can compare MJ with.

And if we're going by Spectacular Spider-Man: Liz was Cordy and Sally Avril was Harmony.

 

[sl500jazz]

Liz is a better Cordy analogue tbh. She belonged to the popular clique at Midtown. Was from a wealthy family. Took part in ridiculing other students (including Peter), but eventually changes her ways.

MJ was not a Queen Bee. If anything (as per 616 canon), she was ridiculed by the other girls in her school for being a flirt. She was self-involved, but in a "life is a party" doesn't take anything seriously kind of way, and she eventually overcomes the commitment fears that causes that kind of behavior...as opposed to the mean girl who learns to be nicer.

I personally see no valid reason MJ needed changed.. and from the looks of it.. based on those who tried out for the part.. they wanted a non-white actress from the get go. And that is change for the sake of change.. not "whos the best for the role". and sorry.. but "we wanted more diversity" isn't an answer either... not when the rest of the cast is already diverse.

I'm ok with it as long as the actress is capable of portraying the character well. To me, Mary Jane being white is nonessential. To each their own I suppose.

 

[Chesterfield]

Not about characters like MJ. I love the character but I'm not profoundly enamoured and invested in her to such a degree.

See, that's the problem. You're not invested in the character, but most of us on here are. We love this character. Mary Jane is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time, as well as comic book characters. Of course, someone who doesn't care about the character as much would not care about these big changes, but since we do, these changes are absurd to us.

So why are you on these boards? To argue and correct people, so you can be right all the time? The rest of us are debating and discussing while you're trying to argue, cause **** and set this board on fire.

Are you drunk? I'm debating and discussing matters, you on the other hand seem to be crying about it. As for setting the board on fire, please, you clearly werent around when the likes of bakerboy, mr parker, slag, symbiotica and herr logan were around. This is merely impassioned opposing points of views.

I already said I love the character of MJ but my love for the character doesn't jump into the bracket of a borderline unhealthy fan-worship. I'm not profoundly invested in the character like that nor to the point I'm going to weep into my pillow, lose sleep and weep some more on a message board because of a few inconsequential changes. If you're not happy with these changes why are YOU still here? Some of you are apparently "done" with the movie or will be allegedly "boycotting" it. Newsflash! This ain't your Daddy's MJ and the sooner you accept that the better. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, Zendaya will still be MJ and her interpretation of the character will still not be a natural red head if not at all. You don't have to like it and I've never said anyone should but at least submit reasonable points that make sense instead of bogus nonsense like, no red hair is tantamount to a gender swap. Please.

 

[X Knight]

MJ was not a Queen Bee. If anything (as per 616 canon), she was ridiculed by the other girls in her school for being a flirt. She was self-involved, but in a "life is a party" doesn't take anything seriously kind of way, and she eventually overcomes the commitment fears that causes that kind of behavior...as opposed to the mean girl who learns to be nicer.

and that's the "façade" angle I wanted them to explore with MJ, not the ugly duckling to beauty angle.

obviously, they'd have to tone down the "party girl" and "flirting" aspect of the character for HS ( though, SSM MJ was quite flirty - she jumped from one guy to the next. ).

but, they could still portray her as the fun loving, popular girl who never seems to take life seriously. the latter part, not taking life seriously, would be the façade. she masks her own troubled homelife by acting like she just lives for the moment without a care in the world.

maybe, that's a turn off to Peter at first. maybe that's why he's attracted to Liz at first. and maybe, as Peter's own problems as Peter AND Spidey start weighing on him, he starts getting annoyed with MJ's seemingly carefree attitude. and that causes friction between the two.

but then something happens that triggers a change. maybe as Spidey, Peter catches a glimpse of MJ's real homelife and sees it's not all rainbows and sunshine for her. Maybe he sees her running away from her home crying, and he follows her to her "safe spot." Wearing a mask as Spidey gives Peter the confidence to approach her and talk with her. Talking to Spidey strangely gives MJ the confidence to be honest about her feelings for once. So they have a nice talk and start to understand each other better.

later on, MJ learns Peter's secret and remembering her conversation she had with him as Spidey, realizes the great burden he's been carrying all this time. that gives her confidence to face her own problems without having to resort to her own "mask."

I'd much rather see that dynamic than any ugly duckling transformation.

 

[Chesterfield]

To you it's rediculous because you don't have the attachment I do...

I don't need to have the attachment you do. Any sane person will tell you that the gravity of gender swapping MJ is overwhelmingly greater than the absence of red hair. MJ's hair doesn't change her relationship dynamic she has with other characters, especially Peter. However, swapping her gender obviously will. This is common sense and I can't believe it's being discussed to such lengths.

 

[marijuanawatson]

Are you drunk? I'm debating and discussing matters, you on the other hand seem to be crying about it. As for setting the board on fire, please, you clearly werent around when the likes of bakerboy, mr parker, slag, symbiotica and herr logan were around. This is merely impassioned opposing points of views.

I already said I love the character of MJ but my love for the character doesn't jump into the bracket of a borderline unhealthy fan-worship. I'm not profoundly invested in the character like that nor to the point I'm going to weep into my pillow, lose sleep and weep some more on a message board because of a few inconsequential changes. If you're not happy with these changes why are YOU still here? Some of you are apparently "done" with the movie or will be allegedly "boycotting" it. Newsflash! This ain't your Daddy's MJ and the sooner you accept that the better. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, Zendaya will still be MJ and her interpretation of the character will still not be a natural red head if not at all. You don't have to like it and I've never said anyone should but at least submit reasonable points that make sense instead of bogus nonsense like, no red hair is tantamount to a gender swap. Please.

Is this real? Did someone actually type this? Are YOU drunk? How am I drunk because I called you out on your bull crap? Calling someone racist because they used a Planet of the Apes as an example, lol. Your post makes no sense, none of the bolded crap applies to me because, Newsflash! I never said any of that or agreed with those who did. Nor am I crying or losing sleep over this MJ debacle. The mere fact that you stated that you are the one who is "debating and discussing matters" is laughable. The mere fact that you are attempting to call out those who only used analogies that were SUPPOSED to be funny and over-dramatic to get people to see their point is also laughable. Seems like you're trying to start drama. Every single thing I've seen you post on is along the lines of "I'm right you're wrong, get over it" "Racist, racist" "You're all dramatic".

None of us are crying but you, honey. We're discussing and debating on the Zendaya MJ situation going back and forth on our opinions, while you're the one who seems to be very frustrated that we're frustrated with some of the creative choices and want us "to get over it". So if you're so in love with the choices that Marvel/Sony are making and want us to stop talking about it, and we're all currently still discussing it, why are you on here? What is the truth, sweetie? Are aware why you're on here? Do you know?

We're discussing, while you're calling people racist and trying to get us to shut up and basically silence us. But whatever, I digress. I hope all is well in your life! I bid you good day.

 

[Chesterfield]

Wow. The irony is almost amusing.

 

[marijuanawatson]

I don't need to have the attachment you do. Any sane person will tell you that the gravity of gender swapping MJ is overwhelmingly greater than the absence of red hair. MJ's hair doesn't change her relationship dynamic she has with other characters, especially Peter. However, swapping her gender obviously will. This is common sense and I can't believe it's being discussed to such lengths.

Although I agree that a gender swap is bigger than changing her hair color, your bolded comment gives you away, tbh. MJ is not important or defined by her relationship with Peter or anyone else. She is her own character who is not just or first and foremost, a love interest. Her hair color doesn't define her, however, it is connected to her characterization. MJ has red hair because she's unique and has a fiery red personality. Also, it's been that way for like 50+ years and is now iconic and it's what people are used to. Me wanting her to have red hair isn't racist. I'm not saying she has to be white or be a natural red head or that I'd rather her be a redhead than be a POC. Just give her red hair regardless of who's playing her.

 

[marijuanawatson]

and that's the "façade" angle I wanted them to explore with MJ, not the ugly duckling to beauty angle.

obviously, they'd have to tone down the "party girl" and "flirting" aspect of the character for HS ( though, SSM MJ was quite flirty - she jumped from one guy to the next. ).

but, they could still portray her as the fun loving, popular girl who never seems to take life seriously. the latter part, not taking life seriously, would be the façade. she masks her own troubled homelife by acting like she just lives for the moment without a care in the world.

maybe, that's a turn off to Peter at first. maybe that's why he's attracted to Liz at first. and maybe, as Peter's own problems as Peter AND Spidey start weighing on him, he starts getting annoyed with MJ's seemingly carefree attitude. and that causes friction between the two.

but then something happens that triggers a change. maybe as Spidey, Peter catches a glimpse of MJ's real homelife and sees it's not all rainbows and sunshine for her. Maybe he sees her running away from her home crying, and he follows her to her "safe spot." Wearing a mask as Spidey gives Peter the confidence to approach her and talk with her. Talking to Spidey strangely gives MJ the confidence to be honest about her feelings for once. So they have a nice talk and start to understand each other better.

later on, MJ learns Peter's secret and remembering her conversation she had with him as Spidey, realizes the great burden he's been carrying all this time. that gives her confidence to face her own problems without having to resort to her own "mask."

I'd much rather see that dynamic than any ugly duckling transformation.

You just get me, man.

 

[X Knight]

You just get me, man.

and you know what?

if they had gone for a similar scenario like I put forth, they could still have had the Face It/Tiger reveal at the end.

since MJ and Peter wouldn't already be best friends/confidants ( like in Ultimate ), and since Peter wouldn't really be attracted to her at first due to her carefree personality and due to his focus on Liz, that means Peter wouldn't really know who she is - that she's the "Mrs. Watson's lovely niece" that Aunt May keeps nagging him about. you don't know everything about every classmate at your school, especially if you're not that close with the person. For all Peter knows, she's just MJ, that's all he knows her by, he doesn't have to know her last name.

so, at the end, when Peter is dateless for Homecoming ( he pinned all of his hopes on Liz and something happened that she stood him up or whatever ), the doorbell rings, and there stands MJ, looking all lovely and now with a more confident attitude about her - Face It Tiger, You Just Hit The Jackpot!!

so, you can still have that classic reveal moment without resorting to some stupid, contrived, out of character ugly duckling transformation story arc.

and certainly no need for the most contrived element of all - the name "Michelle."

 

[Chesterfield]

Although I agree that a gender swap is bigger than changing her hair color, your bolded comment gives you away, tbh. MJ is not important or defined by her relationship with Peter or anyone else.

I never said she was defined by Peter or her relationships. I simply said the colour of her hair doesn't change the dynamic she has with the people around her and in her life when compared to swapping her gender.

She is her own character who is not just or first and foremost, a love interest. Her hair color doesn't define her, however, it is connected to her characterization.

My initial point was the she was first and foremost a love interest, everything she's become to be has been a result of obvious character development. Yes, her red hair is an iconic trait of her character, that was never up for dispute but guess what? This is the cinematic universe and not the comics. In the world of movies these characters aren't stringently beholden to their comic book counterparts. You don't have to like it but it is what it is.

red hair because she's unique and has a fiery red personality. Also, it's been that way for like 50+ years and is now iconic and it's what people are used to.

Yeah because only people with red hair are temperamental or have fiery personalities...This only proves why her hair is inconsequential when adapting the character to film; and as far as being unique, yeah, there's nothing particularly special per se about being unique because a lot of people are, thats what makes people in general individuals. Whether it's been this way for 50 years, 100 years or going back to the writings of the 10 commandments what people are used to doesn't disqualify it from change. I think some people need to look up and learn the meaning of adaptation.

wanting her to have red hair isn't racist.

I never said it was and I don't think anyone else has either.

I'm not saying she has to be white or be a natural red head or that I'd rather her be a redhead than be a POC. Just give her red hair regardless of who's playing her.

That's a fair and reasonable requirement all things considered and I would prefer that too. However, my feelings towards her not having red hair is firmly in a state of indifference.

 

[marijuanawatson]

Yeah because only people with red hair are temperamental or have fiery personalities...This only proves why her hair is inconsequential when adapting the character to film; and as far as being unique, yeah, there's nothing particularly special per se about being unique because a lot of people are, thats what makes people in general individuals. Whether it's been this way for 50 years, 100 years or going back to the writings of the 10 commandments what people are used to doesn't disqualify it from change. I think some people need to look up and learn the meaning of adaptation.


I wasn't saying only people with red hair are temperamental or have fiery personalities, nor do I believe in that. MJ has red hair because her personality is bright and fiery literally, like her fire hydrant hair color. Literally the color. That's what I was talking about. On the unique thing, yes everyone single person on this planet is a unique individual, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly. What I meant was, that back in the 60's and even still today quite frankly, having red hair is a rarity among all races compared to the common hair colors like brown and black, etc. Within the Spider-Man world, MJ is one of the few characters who have red hair, especially among the women. That's one of the things that sets her apart within the fake spidey world and in real life actually since red hair is so rare. That what I meant by unique. Red hair, in fact, is actually even less common today than it was 50 years ago. So yes, I do believe it has to with her character, not just a silly hair color like black hair on Lois Lane or even brown hair on Peter. While I'd prefer Zendaya to have red hair any day, as long as MJ's personality is portrayed accurately and positively, the lack of red hair is less important and okay.

 

[marijuanawatson]

and you know what?

if they had gone for a similar scenario like I put forth, they could still have had the Face It/Tiger reveal at the end.

since MJ and Peter wouldn't already be best friends/confidants ( like in Ultimate ), and since Peter wouldn't really be attracted to her at first due to her carefree personality and due to his focus on Liz, that means Peter wouldn't really know who she is - that she's the "Mrs. Watson's lovely niece" that Aunt May keeps nagging him about. you don't know everything about every classmate at your school, especially if you're not that close with the person. For all Peter knows, she's just MJ, that's all he knows her by, he doesn't have to know her last name.

so, at the end, when Peter is dateless for Homecoming ( he pinned all of his hopes on Liz and something happened that she stood him up or whatever ), the doorbell rings, and there stands MJ, looking all lovely and now with a more confident attitude about her - Face It Tiger, You Just Hit The Jackpot!!

so, you can still have that classic reveal moment without resorting to some stupid, contrived, out of character ugly duckling transformation story arc.

True. Good point.

 

[Chesterfield]

Yeah because only people with red hair are temperamental or have fiery personalities...This only proves why her hair is inconsequential when adapting the character to film; and as far as being unique, yeah, there's nothing particularly special per se about being unique because a lot of people are, thats what makes people in general individuals. Whether it's been this way for 50 years, 100 years or going back to the writings of the 10 commandments what people are used to doesn't disqualify it from change. I think some people need to look up and learn the meaning of adaptation.


I wasn't saying only people with red hair are temperamental or have fiery personalities, nor do I believe in that. MJ has red hair because her personality is bright and fiery literally, like her fire hydrant hair color. Literally the color. That's what I was talking about. On the unique thing, yes everyone single person on this planet is a unique individual, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly. What I meant was, that back in the 60's and even still today quite frankly, having red hair is a rarity among all races compared to the common hair colors like brown and black, etc. Within the Spider-Man world, MJ is one of the few characters who have red hair, especially among the women. That's one of the things that sets her apart within the fake spidey world and in real life actually since red hair is so rare. That what I meant by unique. Red hair, in fact, is actually even less common today than it was 50 years ago. So yes, I do believe it has to with her character, not just a silly hair color like black hair on Lois Lane or even brown hair on Peter. While I'd prefer Zendaya to have red hair any day, as long as MJ's personality is portrayed accurately and positively, the lack of red hair is less important and okay.

Fair do's.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Liz is a better Cordy analogue tbh. She belonged to the popular clique at Midtown. Was from a wealthy family. Took part in ridiculing other students (including Peter), but eventually changes her ways.

MJ was not a Queen Bee. If anything (as per 616 canon), she was ridiculed by the other girls in her school for being a flirt. She was self-involved, but in a "life is a party" doesn't take anything seriously kind of way, and she eventually overcomes the commitment fears that causes that kind of behavior...as opposed to the mean girl who learns to be nicer.



I'm ok with it as long as the actress is capable of portraying the character well. To me, Mary Jane being white is nonessential. To each their own I suppose.

The fact Z said her character is "dry and awkward" already negates that. We arnt getting the MJ you want unfortunately

 

[spideyboy_1111]

and that's the "façade" angle I wanted them to explore with MJ, not the ugly duckling to beauty angle.

obviously, they'd have to tone down the "party girl" and "flirting" aspect of the character for HS ( though, SSM MJ was quite flirty - she jumped from one guy to the next. ).

but, they could still portray her as the fun loving, popular girl who never seems to take life seriously. the latter part, not taking life seriously, would be the façade. she masks her own troubled homelife by acting like she just lives for the moment without a care in the world.

maybe, that's a turn off to Peter at first. maybe that's why he's attracted to Liz at first. and maybe, as Peter's own problems as Peter AND Spidey start weighing on him, he starts getting annoyed with MJ's seemingly carefree attitude. and that causes friction between the two.

but then something happens that triggers a change. maybe as Spidey, Peter catches a glimpse of MJ's real homelife and sees it's not all rainbows and sunshine for her. Maybe he sees her running away from her home crying, and he follows her to her "safe spot." Wearing a mask as Spidey gives Peter the confidence to approach her and talk with her. Talking to Spidey strangely gives MJ the confidence to be honest about her feelings for once. So they have a nice talk and start to understand each other better.

later on, MJ learns Peter's secret and remembering her conversation she had with him as Spidey, realizes the great burden he's been carrying all this time. that gives her confidence to face her own problems without having to resort to her own "mask."

I'd much rather see that dynamic than any ugly duckling transformation.

Truthfully the closest personality to mj in the Buffyverse is probably Buffy herself.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't need to have the attachment you do. Any sane person will tell you that the gravity of gender swapping MJ is overwhelmingly greater than the absence of red hair. MJ's hair doesn't change her relationship dynamic she has with other characters, especially Peter. However, swapping her gender obviously will. This is common sense and I can't believe it's being discussed to such lengths.

You really don't know a hell of alot about gay men then... swapping mj and making Peter gay (both horrible ideas, but regardless) wouldn't change their dynamic nor their dynamic with others at all...

Mj without her hair and personality is "just another " love interest and not even remotely identifiable.

But hey, thanks for the maturity with the insults!