Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[spideyboy_1111]

Although I agree that a gender swap is bigger than changing her hair color, your bolded comment gives you away, tbh. MJ is not important or defined by her relationship with Peter or anyone else. She is her own character who is not just or first and foremost, a love interest. Her hair color doesn't define her, however, it is connected to her characterization. MJ has red hair because she's unique and has a fiery red personality. Also, it's been that way for like 50+ years and is now iconic and it's what people are used to. Me wanting her to have red hair isn't racist. I'm not saying she has to be white or be a natural red head or that I'd rather her be a redhead than be a POC. Just give her red hair regardless of who's playing her.

Well said

 

[X Knight]

Truthfully the closest personality to mj in the Buffyverse is probably Buffy herself.

not familiar with Buffy, but did she put on a carefree "act?"

 

[sl500jazz]

and that's the "façade" angle I wanted them to explore with MJ, not the ugly duckling to beauty angle.

obviously, they'd have to tone down the "party girl" and "flirting" aspect of the character for HS ( though, SSM MJ was quite flirty - she jumped from one guy to the next. ).

but, they could still portray her as the fun loving, popular girl who never seems to take life seriously. the latter part, not taking life seriously, would be the façade. she masks her own troubled homelife by acting like she just lives for the moment without a care in the world.

Honestly, I was hoping for that type of character arc for Mary Jane in the TASM reboot. It could've worked out perfectly with the death of Gwen Stacy. Ultimately, I was disappointed with how that was handled.

The fact Z said her character is "dry and awkward" already negates that. We arnt getting the MJ you want unfortunately

While I'd prefer that Mary Jane, it's not necessarily a deal breaker for me if they go another route. I'll determine whether or not I like this version of the character when I see the film.

 

[X Knight]

Honestly, I was hoping for that type of character arc for Mary Jane in the TASM reboot. It could've worked out perfectly with the death of Gwen Stacy. Ultimately, I was disappointed with how that was handled.

oh, yeah. now that you mention it, that would have been a perfect way to introduce a 616 style MJ.

Peter just went through something truly awful, and now he meets this girl who seems to not have a care in the world.

that would cause friction between the 2. Like in the comic panel that's been posted here ( maybe by you ), where MJ tries to console Peter but then he just brushes her off with "What do you know about other people. You just care about yourself!"

of course, this would work better if MJ had actually been introduced in TASM or in TASM 2, before you get to the Peter-MJ conflict in TASM 3.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

not familiar with Buffy, but did she put on a carefree "act?"

She did at times to avoid issues

 

[X Knight]

She did at times to avoid issues

thanks. well, that does sound like 616 MJ.

 

[KalvinEllis]

well, some of it is sarcastic exaggeration to make a point. like my fat, bald jetpack Superman example.

but here's a much more realistic example.

let's say the new Peter Parker starts out as a blond, confident, popular HS baseball player who then gets bit by the spider. After he becomes Spider-Man, he starts studying up about spiders, which leads to increased interest in biology and chemistry. Peter realizes science is actually his true passion, and he starts neglecting his athletic pursuits. He also starts losing friends from the "jock crowd" and starts making friends amongst the geeks.

To go with his newfound interest in science, Peter also starts changing his appearance to make a "clean break" from the Peter of the past. He dyes his hair brunette. he starts wearing glasses, and he starts dressing more conservatively.

by the end of the film, he starts to look and act more like "classic" Peter.

now, would you want to see a Spider-Man movie where Peter goes through that character arc?

I certainly wouldn't. Cuz it doesn't even sound like Peter Parker at all.

it's a story arc that doesn't make sense for the character, because it makes him start out in a position where he's the total opposite of what he's supposed to be.

it's essentially a reinvention of the character - to the point where it feels like a totally different character.

And if such a scenario isn't acceptable for Peter, then why is it ok for something very similar to happen to MJ?

because with the direction they seem to be taking MJ, they are giving her a story arc that doesn't fit the character, making her start as the total opposite in terms of looks and personality so that she can "transform" into the more familiar and classic MJ by the end.

 

[Chesterfield]

You really don't know a hell of alot about gay men then... swapping mj and making Peter gay (both horrible ideas, but regardless) wouldn't change their dynamic nor their dynamic with others at all...

They're terrible ideas that grossly dwarf the absence of red hair. So, you run around screaming blue murder for a lack of red hair and bemoan it changes everything but then you say making Peter gay or gender swapping MJ as terrible as it is by your own admission changes nothing.....lol, you're unbelievable, wow. In any case you seem to be confused or purposefully ignorant about social dynamics when catalysed by sexuality; because it seems to me based on your odd and extremist comment(s) that you're not clued up about sexual mechanisations in general amongst other things. If you think turning Peter gay or turning MJ into a dude doesn't change anything, then you're crazy. Peter Parker isn't gay and making him so (not trying to offend here)not only basterdizes the character but the construct and dynamic of his interactions, particularly social relationships isn't remaining the same. That isn't an opinion, that is a free fact.

Mj without her hair and personality is "just another " love interest and not even remotely identifiable.

Not even "remotely identifiable", red hair or no red hair, you're free to like it or not but please, spare the overblown, overemotional and irrational hyperbole. It's one thing to be a zealous and impassioned fan but you, buddy are on the fringe of extremism.

But hey, thanks for the maturity with the insults!

I'm only exercising Luke chapter 6 verse 31; and I don't think I've insulted you. If you feel I have, grow some thicker skin then; you've been here long enough.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Lol if you're saying people are idiotic, morons etc... you're throwing insults.. and then for some reason throwing bible verses into it. Yup way Christian of you

 

[Chesterfield]

I didn't call anyone specifically here idiotic or morons. The fact that your claiming I did perhaps suggests that is how you feel you are. That's your own hangup...And where I did use the word, moron, check how I used it and the post I was replying to, hence the bible verse I used. Keep up, dude. Furthermore, since when did quoting something from the Bible make one a Christian?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

calling peoples ideas or behavior moronic and idiotic = calling them moronic and idiodic. not really a hard concept to follow...

most non Christians don't usually post christian bible verse... just sayin




anywho I think everyone in here has said and explained themselves to you quite alot by now... so not really sure why you still seem to not get it. But that's your prerogative.

 

[X Knight]

They're terrible ideas that grossly dwarf the absence of red hair. So, you run around screaming blue murder for a lack of red hair and bemoan it changes everything but then you say making Peter gay or gender swapping MJ as terrible as it is by your own admission changes nothing.....lol, you're unbelievable, wow. In any case you seem to be confused or purposefully ignorant about social dynamics when catalysed by sexuality; because it seems to me based on your odd and extremist comment(s) that you're not clued up about sexual mechanisations in general amongst other things. If you think turning Peter gay or turning MJ into a dude doesn't change anything, then you're crazy. Peter Parker isn't gay and making him so (not trying to offend here)not only basterdizes the character but the construct and dynamic of his interactions, particularly social relationships isn't remaining the same. That isn't an opinion, that is a free fact.



Not even "remotely identifiable", red hair or no red hair, you're free to like it or not but please, spare the overblown, overemotional and irrational hyperbole. It's one thing to be a zealous and impassioned fan but you, buddy are on the fringe of extremism.



I'm only exercising Luke chapter 6 verse 31; and I don't think I've insulted you. If you feel I have, grow some thicker skin then; you've been here long enough.

I think you're getting hung up on the "lack of red hair" but missing ( or ignoring ) what spideyboy, myself, and other posters here have been saying time and time again.

it's not just the lack of red hair. it's the seemingly total change to her whole personality - her actual character.

even spideyboy said, in the part you quoted:

"Mj without her hair and personality is "just another " love interest and not even remotely identifiable."



notice he said AND personality.

Changing MJ's hair color does make her less identifiable to a degree, because her signature look IS her iconic red hair. If she were suddenly blonde, you wouldn't immediately be able to recognize her as MJ. However, if that's the only thing they changed about her, and they kept pretty much everything else the same about her ( overall look and personality ), then at least she'd still feel like MJ.

However, if they took away her signature look of red hair AND changed her overall look ( make her frumpy and plain looking ) AND changed her personality ( make her quiet, awkward, dry bookworm ) AND change her story arc ( give her ugly duckling transformation arc ), then you've really made her less identifiable as MJ. In fact, she'd look and feel like a totally different character. If you didn't know beforehand that was supposed to be MJ, you wouldn't be able to point to that character and say "That's MJ."

 

[Chesterfield]

calling peoples ideas or behavior moronic and idiotic = calling them moronic and idiodic. not really a hard concept to follow...

You're right. It's not a hard concept to follow but I didn't call the ideas of anyone here idiotic. That's what you seem to be finding difficult. That being said, if you think this thread is absent of some posters saying moronic things then you need to get your eyes checked. There's nothing wrong with stating the obvious and if it offends you, you need to learn to deal with it.

most non Christians don't usually post christian bible verse... just sayin

Most well read people can quote from any literary source; but thanks for your "cognitive insight".

anywho I think everyone in here has said and explained themselves to you quite alot by now... so not really sure why you still seem to not get it. But that's your prerogative.

Not get what? I've been saying I don't have an issue with what anyone thinks but some examples used to support "explanations" andvyou've been guilty of this are just plain silly and nonsensical and I'm perfectly well within my right to express that. You can choose to like it or not and that, is your prerogative.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Something to point out too: If they wanted something new where Peter meets and ends up with a bi-racial girl or a full African-American girl or whatever race, why not use female characters from his vast universe that are those things? They couldn't have him date Glory Grant?

 

[X Knight]

Something to point out too: If they wanted something new where Peter meets and ends up with a bi-racial girl or a full African-American girl or whatever race, why not use female characters from his vast universe that are those things? They couldn't have him date Glory Grant?

exactly. even Hispanic Liz from SSM.

or, if you want to use a Michelle, use Michelle Gonzalez from the comics.

 

[X Knight]

You're right. It's not a hard concept to follow but I didn't call the ideas of anyone here idiotic. That's what you seem to be finding difficult. That being said, if you think this thread is absent of some posters saying moronic things then you need to get your eyes checked. There's nothing wrong with stating the obvious and if it offends you, you need to learn to deal with it.




Most well read people can quote from any literary source; but thanks for your "cognitive insight".




Not get what? I've been saying I don't have an issue with what anyone thinks but some examples used to support "explanations" andvyou've been guilty of this are just plain silly and nonsensical and I'm perfectly well within my right to express that. You can choose to like it or not and that, is your prerogative.

You say "I didn't call the ideas of anyone here idiotic."

then 2 sentences later you say "posters saying moronic things."

calling what posters say moronic is pretty much the same as calling their ideas idiotic.

ummm........yeah...........

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Something to point out too: If they wanted something new where Peter meets and ends up with a bi-racial girl or a full African-American girl or whatever race, why not use female characters from his vast universe that are those things? They couldn't have him date Glory Grant?

that's my thoughts. He has leeps and bounds multiple diverse characters, i don't see why they arn't being used.. id be just as happy to see Glory Grant as I would betty brant or Liz Allen

 

[spideyboy_1111]

You say "I didn't call the ideas of anyone here idiotic."

then 2 sentences later you say "posters saying moronic things."

ummm........yeah...........

he's honestly not even worth replying to anymore. He doesn't even know what he's saying.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

So excited to see what she can bring to the role. Just hope that the "Michele/Michelle J____" thing doesn't turn out to be true 'cause that'd be a bummer. Really hoping she is Mary Jane.

The MJ = Michelle J_____ would really piss me off tbh.

MJ isn't frumpy is the problem. She's not someone who blossoms into herself. Not to mention it sends a terrible message

Being who you want to be? Seriously, this is not a great argument IMO. There are salient points to be made on each side but it's just going to go in circles and waste more time and space.

and that's the "façade" angle I wanted them to explore with MJ, not the ugly duckling to beauty angle.

Could still be a "facade" (not doing that punctuation lol) if the theory posted probably 15 pages ago now is correct--that teen MJ is a famous model/actress and is "undercover" so to speak at Midtown. Probably not true, but the idea truly intrigues me.

'm only exercising Luke chapter 6 verse 31

Did you really just quote a Bible verse in an argument about comic book characters adapted to film? I'm done.

Seriously. I think you have some good points, but you come off as so insufferable and unlikable that it's no wonder this stupid argument has taken up so many pages of this thread.

Let's debate this thing like civilized people and stop the pointless arguing in circles, name calling, false equivalencies and general tomfoolery. Gaaaaaah.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

exactly. even Hispanic Liz from SSM.

or, if you want to use a Michelle, use Michelle Gonzalez from the comics.

Which I was and still am hoping for but everybody and every newspaper and news outlet seems to want to keep on riding this unconfirmed bandwagon that she's Mary Jane Watson.

Michelle Gonzalez can always be adapted and changed to something else especially considering they're gung-ho already about changing every other character in this. Heck, anyone remember Indira? I think she was Middle Eastern in the MTV "Spider-Man" animated series and a love interest for Peter.

http://marvelanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Indira_Daimonji_(Spider-Man:_The_New_Animated_Series)

 

[X Knight]

that's my thoughts. He has leeps and bounds multiple diverse characters, i don't see why they arn't being used.. id be just as happy to see Glory Grant as I would betty brant or Liz Allen

that's why I don't know why they have to make so many changes, especially changes to existing characters.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

exactly. even Hispanic Liz from SSM.

or, if you want to use a Michelle, use Michelle Gonzalez from the comics.

So nobody had a problem with Liz (a smaller role than MJ) being race swapped, because the character seemed familiar. That's the problem people have with the MJ thing, not full blown "YOU HATE DIVERSITY AND YOU'RE A CRAPPY RACIST" we've been hearing. (would still like her to have red hair by the end of the film tho )

Totally seconded on the Michelle Gonzales angle. That's who I always assumed Zendaya was playing until last week when the news broke. A character who was not original, but minor enough that 99% of people or better wouldn't care what changes were made to her.

 

[X Knight]

The MJ = Michelle J_____ would really piss me off tbh.



Being who you want to be? Seriously, this is not a great argument IMO. There are salient points to be made on each side but it's just going to go in circles and waste more time and space.



Could still be a "facade" (not doing that punctuation lol) if the theory posted probably 15 pages ago now is correct--that teen MJ is a famous model/actress and is "undercover" so to speak at Midtown. Probably not true, but the idea truly intrigues me.



Did you really just quote a Bible verse in an argument about comic book characters adapted to film? I'm done.

Seriously. I think you have some good points, but you come off as so insufferable and unlikable that it's no wonder this stupid argument has taken up so many pages of this thread.

Let's debate this thing like civilized people and stop the pointless arguing in circles, name calling, false equivalencies and general tomfoolery. Gaaaaaah.

MJ already being a famous model/actress and then using the look, name, and persona of Michelle to go to school "undercover" is, right now, about the only scenario I can accept, given all the changes they've made.

It would be a different arc for MJ, for sure. but it would be, at this point, about the only "logical" way to explain away all the differences while keeping the "core" of MJ intact.

 

[Chesterfield]

I think you're getting hung up on the "lack of red hair" but missing ( or ignoring ) what spideyboy, myself, and other posters here have been saying time and time again.

Nope. I was adressing a dedicated point about the absence of red hair a
In which he equated it to what I deem to be a silly comparison to having the same gravity as a gender swap or other suggestions about no red hair = ruined character. It's rubbish. Genuine concerns about character and personality changes are fair enough and I can appreciate but the aforementioned? Its kust being obstinately ridiculous.

Changing MJ's hair color does make her less identifiable to a degree, because her signature look IS her iconic red hair. If she were suddenly blonde, you wouldn't immediately be able to recognize her as MJ.

I understand that and again I'm not disputing that concern. MJ obviously has a signature look but unlike some of you, I understand that this is an adaptation (please, some of you look up the meaning of the word) and I'm not looking at these movies with dedicated comic book eyes because the idea is you're not supposed to. You can like or dislike the changes; that being said if the general essence of who these characters are can be captured and if executed well then I for one will be happy. If not then I'll share my dislike.

However, if they took away her signature look of red hair AND changed her overall look ( make her frumpy and plain looking ) AND changed her personality ( make her quiet, awkward, dry bookworm ), then you've really made her less identifiable as MJ.

I agree. However, I'll also add that if what you suggested was to somewhat happen, if it's done well and in an interesting way, it still wouldn't be my preference but I could at least appreciate it. Time will tell.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Not even "remotely identifiable", red hair or no red hair, you're free to like it or not but please, spare the overblown, overemotional and irrational hyperbole. It's one thing to be a zealous and impassioned fan but you, buddy are on the fringe of extremism.

The reason for that is her hair color is her main identifier in comic panels. Mary Jane doesn't wear a costume or uniform and she lacks a distinct visual marker like Cyclops's visor or Fury's eye patch. Add to that how her appearance varies from artist to artist, and it's easy to see why her hair color is so important in the comics.

Film is a completely different medium that doesn't have that issue. You can tell Laura and Zendaya apart regardless of their hair color. While I'm all for her going red for the end scene, I'd argue her love of dancing is of much greater importance to the character, and hope to see it in the series.