Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[X Knight]

So nobody had a problem with Liz (a smaller role than MJ) being race swapped, because the character seemed familiar. That's the problem people have with the MJ thing, not full blown "YOU HATE DIVERSITY AND YOU'RE A CRAPPY RACIST" we've been hearing. (would still like her to have red hair by the end of the film tho )

Totally seconded on the Michelle Gonzales angle. That's who I always assumed Zendaya was playing until last week when the news broke. A character who was not original, but minor enough that 99% of people or better wouldn't care what changes were made to her.

I don't think anyone really has a problem with Liz being changed.

hence why there's way less activity in the Liz thread.

changing one or two characters is fine. changing the race of a character but keeping the core character type is fine.

but not wholesale changing pretty much the entire HS cast. They've changed Liz, Flash, Sally, Betty, Ned, and now MJ. And not just changing their race or looks, but changing their very core character types. transposing traits from one character to another. giving them story arcs that don't make sense.

Like I've said before, throwing them all into a blender, mixing them up real good, then randomly slapping classic names to them.

I mean, couldn't they have kept one character, aside from Peter, the same?

Well, I guess there's Cindy.......lol.

 

[Chesterfield]

You say "I didn't call the ideas of anyone here idiotic."

then 2 sentences later you say "posters saying moronic things."

calling what posters say moronic is pretty much the same as calling their ideas idiotic.

ummm........yeah...........

Yeah? I stated I didn't call anyone those things BUT if I did see something that I felt was moronic. I would point it out. You need to realise that potentially doing something and having actually done it are not one and the same thing.

 

[X Knight]

Yeah? I stated I didn't call anyone those things BUT if I did see something that I felt was moronic. I would point it out. You need to realise that potentially doing something and having actually done it are not one and the same thing.

then you can point it out without calling it moronic.

and you also need to understand the concept of sarcasm. of using exaggerated extremes to make a point.

 

[X Knight]

Nope. I was adressing a dedicated point about the absence of red hair a
In which he equated it to what I deem to be a silly comparison to having the same gravity as a gender swap or other suggestions about no red hair = ruined character. It's rubbish. Genuine concerns about character and personality changes are fair enough and I can appreciate but the aforementioned? Its kust being obstinately ridiculous.



I understand that and again I'm not disputing that concern. MJ obviously has a signature look but unlike some of you, I understand that this is an adaptation (please, some of you look up the meaning of the word) and I'm not looking at these movies with dedicated comic book eyes because the idea is you're not supposed to. You can like or dislike the changes; that being said if the general essence of who these characters are can be captured and if executed well then I for one will be happy. If not then I'll share my dislike.



I agree. However, I'll also add that if what you suggested was to somewhat happen, if it's done well and in an interesting way, it still wouldn't be my preference but I could at least appreciate it. Time will tell.

I understand what adaptation means.

there will always be changes from the source material. Some things simply don't translate well from comic to live action. Some stuff needs to be modernized and tweaked.

but, there has to be a balance.

if you change too much, to the point where the characters, stories, motivations, etc. become unrecognizable, then why bother to adapt from the source material at all?

sure, you can do that. but why not just come up with your own original characters and/or stories if you are going to change so much?

 

[X Knight]

The reason for that is her hair color is her main identifier in comic panels. Mary Jane doesn't wear a costume or uniform and she lacks a distinct visual marker like Cyclops's visor or Fury's eye patch. Add to that how her appearance varies from artist to artist, and it's easy to see why her hair color is so important in the comics.

Film is a completely different medium that doesn't have that issue. You can tell Laura and Zendaya apart regardless of their hair color. While I'm all for her going red for the end scene, I'd argue her love of dancing is of much greater importance to the character, and hope to see it in the series.

bingo!!

the red hair is her signature look.

 

[Chesterfield]

then you can point it out without calling it moronic.

But if it's moronic i prefer to just call it as it is. If you make a great point, wonderful; if you say something dumb then it's dumb. I'm not here to sugar coat or cushion anyone.

and you also need to understand the concept of sarcasm. of using exaggerated extremes to make a point.

Oh yes, sarcasm, the lowest form of wit. If people are going to attempt to be sarcastic at least be good at it.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

So nobody had a problem with Liz (a smaller role than MJ) being race swapped, because the character seemed familiar. That's the problem people have with the MJ thing, not full blown "YOU HATE DIVERSITY AND YOU'RE A CRAPPY RACIST" we've been hearing. (would still like her to have red hair by the end of the film tho )

Totally seconded on the Michelle Gonzales angle. That's who I always assumed Zendaya was playing until last week when the news broke. A character who was not original, but minor enough that 99% of people or better wouldn't care what changes were made to her.

people don't seem to understand the concept that "more well known and more iconic characters are harder to change than lesser known and less iconic characters" Liz Allen is not vastly important to the Spider-man mythos.. this is why no one really cared that Ben Urich was race swapped, but cared a whole lot that Johnny Storm was...

there's a direct correlation behind popularity/fanbase and amount of care. Most people don't really care what happens to a character they don't really care all that much about or find non-essential.

 

[Chesterfield]

I understand what adaptation means.

there will always be changes from the source material. Some things simply don't translate well from comic to live action. Some stuff needs to be modernized and tweaked.

but, there has to be a balance.

if you change too much, to the point where the characters, stories, motivations, etc. become unrecognizable, then why bother to adapt from the source material at all?

sure, you can do that. but why not just come up with your own original characters and/or stories if you are going to change so much?

Yep but then it would also depend on what those changes are. If the film lacks the essence of the characters and what made the stories and mythology so great in the first place then like you said, why bother in the first place if it's completely unrecognizable? But if the essence is there and the changes are reasonable, it's easier to appreciate and be more forgiving.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Nope. I was adressing a dedicated point about the absence of red hair a
In which he equated it to what I deem to be a silly comparison to having the same gravity as a gender swap or other suggestions about no red hair = ruined character. It's rubbish. Genuine concerns about character and personality changes are fair enough and I can appreciate but the aforementioned? Its kust being obstinately ridiculous.



I understand that and again I'm not disputing that concern. MJ obviously has a signature look but unlike some of you, I understand that this is an adaptation (please, some of you look up the meaning of the word) and I'm not looking at these movies with dedicated comic book eyes because the idea is you're not supposed to. You can like or dislike the changes; that being said if the general essence of who these characters are can be captured and if executed well then I for one will be happy. If not then I'll share my dislike.



I agree. However, I'll also add that if what you suggested was to somewhat happen, if it's done well and in an interesting way, it still wouldn't be my preference but I could at least appreciate it. Time will tell.

lol and adaptation does not mean people have no right to be upset about major changes to a character... EVERYTHING is an adaptation when brought to film... be it direct adaptation or not... throwing the word adaptation around doesn't suddenly justify anything nor put people in the wrong for criticizing changes... and it's not moronic to them to be upset about major changes physical or not to a character they love and identify with.

 

[X Knight]

Yep but then it would also depend on what those changes are. If the film lacks the essence of the characters and what made the stories and mythology so great in the first place then like you said, why bother in the first place if it's completely unrecognizable? But if the essence is there and the changes are reasonable, it's easier to appreciate and be more forgiving.

and on that, I totally agree with you.

and for myself, spideyboy, Dark Raven, and others, that's exactly how it's feeling right now.

based on what we've seen and heard about the characters and direction they seem to be taking them, it does feel like the film will lack "the essence of the characters and what made the stories and mythology so great in the first place" as you said.

Other posters are more optimistic or have more faith in the process. others are less bothered by the change.

and you know what, that's perfectly fine.

 

[X Knight]

people don't seem to understand the concept that "more well known and more iconic characters are harder to change than lesser known and less iconic characters" Liz Allen is not vastly important to the Spider-man mythos.. this is why no one really cared that Ben Urich was race swapped, but cared a whole lot that Johnny Storm was...

there's a direct correlation behind popularity/fanbase and amount of care. Most people don't really care what happens to a character they don't really care all that much about or find non-essential.

lol and adaptation does not mean people have no right to be upset about major changes to a character... EVERYTHING is an adaptation when brought to film... be it direct adaptation or not... throwing the word adaptation around doesn't suddenly justify anything nor put people in the wrong for criticizing changes... and it's not moronic to them to be upset about major changes physical or not to a character they love and identify with.

agreed.

 

[Chesterfield]

lol and adaptation does not mean people have no right to be upset about major changes to a character... EVERYTHING is an adaptation when brought to film... be it direct adaptation or not... throwing the word adaptation around doesn't suddenly justify anything nor put people in the wrong for criticizing changes... and it's not moronic to them to be upset about major changes physical or not to a character they love and identify with.

Lol I never said it was. As I KEEP saying, you can like or dislike whatever you want. That's not a problem but as this thread has proven, whether one favours or opposes certain changes some comments made have been on the...doltish side of things.

 

[Chesterfield]

and on that, I totally agree with you.

and for myself, spideyboy, Dark Raven, and others, that's exactly how it's feeling right now.

based on what we've seen and heard about the characters and direction they seem to be taking them, it does feel like the film will lack "the essence of the characters and what made the stories and mythology so great in the first place" as you said.

Other posters are more optimistic or have more faith in the process. others are less bothered by the change.

and you know what, that's perfectly fine.

Can't argue with that.

 

[PeterBenParker]

The MJ = Michelle J_____ would really piss me off tbh.

Yeah, that is my only complaint that has risen from this casting. I'm okay with going through a little bit of a side-arc to get to a more familiar MJ, for example, but I wouldn't be okay if that ends with the "MJ of the MCU" as opposed to Mary Jane Watson, ya know?

I just want to have a good Mary Jane on the big screen. That's all I really want and I know Zendaya is capable of giving us a really good Mary Jane so I'm just hoping this is all one big, "Have faith in Marvel" moment.

 

[X Knight]

Can't argue with that.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Those 4chan rumors on the General thread may add some trepidation in how MJ is going to be portrayed.

Hope the big "reveal" moment that has been spoiled gives us the MJ we're waiting for (and signature red hair).

 

[X Knight]

Those 4chan rumors on the General thread may add some trepidation in how MJ is going to be portrayed.

Hope the big "reveal" moment that has been spoiled gives us the MJ we're waiting for (and signature red hair).

yeah. I read it and it pisses me off.

but it does explain why these characters look and act so different from their comic counterparts.

that's because they were written and created as different character to begin with!!

they literally slapped classic names onto original characters.

 

[KalvinEllis]

4chan is as reliable as IMDB. I don't take those rumors to heart, though the supposed rewrites do sound frustrating.

 

[X Knight]

yeah, I know that about 4chan.

but still..........

 

[X Knight]

so, a few days ago, we were discussing how Stan Lee supports Zendaya playing MJ. And I posted a link to a quote how a year ago, Stan seemed far more resistant to changing Spidey. He was saying we shouldn't make Spidey gay. The quote I linked to just talked about that aspect. It turns out, there was much more to Stan's words, cuz I came across this today. This is also why I don't put much weight in Stan's words, because he has totally contradicted himself.

http://www.newsarama.com/24901-stan-lee-talks-big-screen-spider-man-depiction.html

“I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way,” Lee said. “But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.”

“It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that,” Lee said. “Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”

The ironic thing is, if Stan had made this exact response to Zendaya's casting as MJ, he would have been labelled a racist, close-minded troll by the internet.

This also makes me think that Zendaya IS indeed MJ. that's why Stan has now changed his tune and is praising the casting.

And I don't want to bring up the racechange argument again. But I just wanted to provide full context to what Stan said a year ago.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

MJ already being a famous model/actress and then using the look, name, and persona of Michelle to go to school "undercover" is, right now, about the only scenario I can accept, given all the changes they've made.

It would be a different arc for MJ, for sure. but it would be, at this point, about the only "logical" way to explain away all the differences while keeping the "core" of MJ intact.

Agreed

I don't think anyone really has a problem with Liz being changed.

hence why there's way less activity in the Liz thread.

changing one or two characters is fine. changing the race of a character but keeping the core character type is fine.

I was referring to the quoted example of SSM Liz being Hispanic...so it fit your criteria lol.

people don't seem to understand the concept that "more well known and more iconic characters are harder to change than lesser known and less iconic characters" Liz Allen is not vastly important to the Spider-man mythos.. this is why no one really cared that Ben Urich was race swapped, but cared a whole lot that Johnny Storm was...

there's a direct correlation behind popularity/fanbase and amount of care. Most people don't really care what happens to a character they don't really care all that much about or find non-essential.

You clearly didn't read my post well, because I was more or less on your side of the argument, bro. I know you want white and red-haired, and while I'd prefer it I was saying that race isn't that big of a deal to me as long as we recognize the character, which by all accounts (prematurely admittedly) we cannot yet.

Yeah, that is my only complaint that has risen from this casting. I'm okay with going through a little bit of a side-arc to get to a more familiar MJ, for example, but I wouldn't be okay if that ends with the "MJ of the MCU" as opposed to Mary Jane Watson, ya know?

I just want to have a good Mary Jane on the big screen. That's all I really want and I know Zendaya is capable of giving us a really good Mary Jane so I'm just hoping this is all one big, "Have faith in Marvel" moment.

Same. I'm pretty much trusting them until I see evidence that they really screw this up, and that would be hard to do without seeing the movie first.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

The ironic thing is, if Stan had made this exact response to Zendaya's casting as MJ, he would have been labelled a racist, close-minded troll by the internet.

This also makes me think that Zendaya IS indeed MJ. that's why Stan has now changed his tune and is praising the casting.

Idiots (including some on these very forums apparently) will accuse anyone of racism for wanting a character adapted in the way it was created and it's obnoxious. I'm sick of people saying that crap. But trolls gonna troll.

 

[X Knight]

Idiots (including some on these very forums apparently) will accuse anyone of racism for wanting a character adapted in the way it was created and it's obnoxious. I'm sick of people saying that crap. But trolls gonna troll.

so true. and I'm tired of it too.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

So now it's alright to call fellow hypers idiots?

 

[marijuanawatson]

MJ already being a famous model/actress and then using the look, name, and persona of Michelle to go to school "undercover" is, right now, about the only scenario I can accept, given all the changes they've made.

It would be a different arc for MJ, for sure. but it would be, at this point, about the only "logical" way to explain away all the differences while keeping the "core" of MJ intact.

I agree that I would rather have her as a teen model than have this Michele version, but having MJ as a teen model is a little laughable to me and doesn't fit. MJ isn't supposed to be rich or anything, especially as a teen. And I doubt her family would let her do that since she would be a minor at the time. I also find it hard to believe that in this social media age that no one at Midtown would know she was a model. But yeah, I'd rather have that than Michelle though.