Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[X Knight]

No, this movie is definitely going to make bank outside of horrible reviews--which I definitely don't see happening.

even with horrible or more likely so-so reviews, this will still make money.

look at the TASM films. they still made money even with mixed reviews.

I will be interested to see if a common theme in the reviews next year, especially reviews from comic minded fans, will be that the HS character setting feels largely unrecognizable because the characters all seem so different. that Zendaya, while good in her role, never really felt like MJ because her character was so different.

and I do wonder, for those who are going into this movie blind, how will they take the "MJ" twist reveal at the end. how will they react when this Michelle character suddenly "becomes" MJ? will they like it or will they think it's so out of nowhere and stupid?

so, we shall see.

 

[MbJ]

I will be interested to see if a common theme in the reviews next year, especially reviews from comic minded fans, will be that the HS character setting feels largely unrecognizable because the characters all seem so different.

I don't think most reviewers will care about that. Does anyone in the mainstream audience really care that much about a true to the comics Flash Thompson or Ned Leeds? Probably not.

 

[BatsDC]

Yeah, the reviewers won't care if Ned, Flash or MJ aren't carbon copies of their comic counterparts.

The response to the HS stuff was positive from SDCC anyways

 

[X Knight]

you're right. the mainstream audience and most reviewers won't care about the stuff.

they will judge based on how the characters are acted and written.

and that's where the "Michelle becomes MJ" thing has the potential to be the biggest issue, moreso than any race change or making the characters different from their comic counterparts.

if the twist isn't pulled off effectively, then it could come across as a huge wtf moment that comes across as confusing and contrived.

indeed, if they really are going to go for MJ stands for Michelle J-something and NOT Mary Jane, then that would actually be the biggest slap in the face of MJ fans, more than any race change or character change.

that would be like them saying "Yeah. Here's your MJ. But guess what? she's not Mary Jane. she's Michelle Johnson!" Slap!!

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Yeah, the reviewers won't care if Ned, Flash or MJ aren't carbon copies of their comic counterparts.

The response to the HS stuff was positive from SDCC anyways

Truth.

Reviewers respond to quality. Raimi's SM2 has characterization issues but it's a very coherent, well-made film from start to finish. That is what critics and even fans respond to--a solid, all-round movie that's entertaining. There's a reason Feige commented and said SM2 is the bar that they're holding themselves to in terms of quality.

For a contrast, ASM2 has a very good interpretation of Spider-Man however the movie around him is garbage...the critics don't care about how lippy Spider-Man is, they rate the quality of a film as a whole.

With Homecoming, as much as I want them to be totally faithful towards the core truth in the characters, really what's important is the final product and how good the movie actually is. As long as their changes, whatever they may be, suit a well-told story, and make sense in that regard--no contrivances, then I'm sure I'll probably be happy.

Though honestly, even with the differences between TV and Film, Feige and his band of filmmakers should be looking at TSSM as the bar...but hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Though honestly, even with the differences between TV and Film, Feige and his band of filmmakers should be looking at TSSM as the bar...but hey, that's just my opinion.

Truth right there!

 

[BatsDC]

SSM should be the bar for everything

 

[X Knight]

I agree about TSSM. it provided the perfect template for a HS setting that was quite diverse with its cast without making major changes ( look wise and character wise ) to any of the main characters.

You watch that show and the characters are recognizable and familiar.

indeed, it showed what you can do by taking a relatively minor character, like Liz Allan, and making her an actual, interesting character - even if you changed her race from the comics.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

I don't want another situation where they make a well crafted, well received film but completely screw up MJ. We already got that with the Raimi films. Well received and well crafted but that version of Mary Jane was garbage.

I just want one film, where the character is portrayed accurately. Just one. If they get MJ right, I'll almost completely overlook everything else they got wrong, LOL!

That's how important this is to me.

(Like Suicide Squad for example. Extremely flawed film, that wasn't well received but they gave me an absolutely pitch perfect Harley Quinn, that I absolutely loved. Because of that, I was very forgiving towards it.)

 

[guyisnotcool]

I don't think most reviewers will care about that. Does anyone in the mainstream audience really care that much about a true to the comics Flash Thompson or Ned Leeds? Probably not.

Most people watchingit probably don't know Liz or Ned so probably not.

 

[X Knight]

I don't want another situation where they make a well crafted, well received film but completely screw up MJ. We already got that with the Raimi films. Well received and well crafted but that version of Mary Jane was garbage.

I just want one film, where the character is portrayed accurately. Just one. If they get MJ right, I'll almost completely overlook everything else they got wrong, LOL!

That's how important this is to me.

(Like Suicide Squad for example. Extremely flawed film, that wasn't well received but they gave me an absolutely pitch perfect Harley Quinn, that I absolutely loved. Because of that, I was very forgiving towards it.)

sorry. looks like we aren't getting that here.

I wanted to see a more accurate portrayal of the character, too, more in line with the 616/SSM version of the character.

but this looks to be a radically different take on the character.

to the point where she might not even be called MJ or Mary Jane for most of the movie - no, she's "Michelle" now.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I just want one film, where the character is portrayed accurately. Just one. If they get MJ right, I'll almost completely overlook everything else they got wrong, LOL!

Boom.

As you said, giving us an overall good/great film but poor character representations would suck. Mary Jane was beyond unlikable in SM2 and holds that film back for me considering one of the biggest story arcs in the film was the relationship of Gwen-Liz-J and Peter.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I don't want another situation where they make a well crafted, well received film but completely screw up MJ. We already got that with the Raimi films. Well received and well crafted but that version of Mary Jane was garbage.

I just want one film, where the character is portrayed accurately. Just one. If they get MJ right, I'll almost completely overlook everything else they got wrong, LOL!

That's how important this is to me.

(Like Suicide Squad for example. Extremely flawed film, that wasn't well received but they gave me an absolutely pitch perfect Harley Quinn, that I absolutely loved. Because of that, I was very forgiving towards it.)

I want a good portrayal of MJ also...she's one of my favorite characters. But, this is an adaptation of the source and is most likely going to pull from various sources to complete the character arc/movie. I mean, the argument can be made that the past 5 Spider-Man movies have yet to accurately portray the duality of Peter and Spider-Man. Lots of hits and misses. Unfortunately, I doubt they are going to do a page to page transfer of the characters from the 616 universe. Lots of sources to pull from.

My comment about TSSM being the bar is that it took ideas from many sources but kept true to the core truths. If they can pull off this same level of care and make a great film...that's the best outcome. And they should strive for that.

To the emoboldened...imo, this is the wrong attitude. Even if they absolutely nail the characterization of MJ, and have a horrible film around her, what exactly does this do for the Spider-Man franchise?? Spidey, is in a rut film-wise. The last three movies have been anywhere from average to underwhelming to just plain awful. He needs an absolutely solid film to break this downward spiral, imo. And as an adaptation, some leeway needs to be in effect for these characters. I haven't seen SS so I can't comment there but from what I've heard, it's an awful movie. Margot's Harley is a bright spot but so was Garfield's Spider-Man or Emma's Gwen, but that couldn't save a dreadful production.

Spider-Man's cinematic success is more important to me than one character's depiction.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

This will make bank but it will be divisive (as it is now) amongst comic book fans. Average Joe Schmoe who doesn't know who Sally, Liz, or Ned are or don't care Flash, MJ and others are race-changed won't give a **** and see the film and if it's good and successful will dish out more money for more solo movies and continuing adventures of Spider-Man in separate MCU films.

However, comic book fans it's going to be a different story. Maybe some racist fans will not see this personally because of the sole reason MJ and others are race-changed, but despite these changes, it's not the sky is falling end of the world scenario for me. I may dislike it and like I said in the past if there any more (God forbid J. Jonah Jameson gender-swapped or something else) I can't say my optimism or enthusiasm for this film will be there come opening day but if Watts deliver a good Spider-Man film despite race-changes then that's good enough for me. If it delivers on a good story, action, emotion, comedy and heart than that's all that matters to me. Yeah, I wish Flash was blonde, Ned was what he looked like in the comics, MJ was a natural redhead, Sally and Liz looked like who they are in the comics, and Betty Brant wasn't younger. Yeah, it's different to have a AILF for Aunt May. Yeah, the Vulture suit isn't what we're using to seeing. But if the movie delivers on story and other things, I can look past these things. It may not be the perfect Spider-Man film I envisioned but it'll still be a Spider-Man film.

And it's not just Spider-Man where race-changes have been made or liberties have been taken. I may not like that Heimdall is played by Idris Elba (I have Norse in my blood so to me it's like if Squanto was played by a white man or Nelson Mandela was played by John Leguizamo or something. I also feel Idris would've made a better Blade) or Tessa Thomspon is Valkryie (would've preferred an actress like Rosamund Pike, Diane Kruger, Katee Sackhoff or Krsitana Loken or Yvonne Strahovski for the part) but there's nothing I can do about it. They made their picks and cast them. It's different kind of Hollywood nowadays. Hell, it's a different kind of world too. Look at "Hamilton" or "Harry Potter & the Cursed Child" and it's changing of historical figures and characters to different races. We can be upset about this or scratch our heads at the direction or ask why but in the end we don't have the control over it. But if some want to boycott this film or not see it till home-video or streaming sites pick it up or whatever then that's where they have the control. The audience has the control to say we don't like this or want it or not.

I haven't gotten that far yet with this, but there are some changes I accept and others that make me go, "Huh? Why? What?" I'm still hoping Zendaya will be Michelle and that the whole "Is she or is she not Mary Jane?" will be put to rest and be considered a silly Internet rumor, but if not... so be it, I'll live and learn to accept it, and will still see the film. If they want to go for the She's All That cliche'... so be it too. Not the end of the world but would rather have MJ be this hot, gorgeous popular girl who Peter sees her inner beauty and worth while everyone else is focused on her looks or treating her like a piece of meat.

 

[X Knight]

I want a good portrayal of MJ also...she's one of my favorite characters. But, this is an adaptation of the source and is most likely going to pull from various sources to complete the character arc/movie. I mean, the argument can be made that the past 5 Spider-Man movies have yet to accurately portray the duality of Peter and Spider-Man. Lots of hits and misses. Unfortunately, I doubt they are going to do a page to page transfer of the characters from the 616 universe. Lots of sources to pull from.

My comment about TSSM being the bar is that it took ideas from many sources but kept true to the core truths. If they can pull off this same level of care and make a great film...that's the best outcome. And they should strive for that.

To the emoboldened...imo, this is the wrong attitude. Even if they absolutely nail the characterization of MJ, and have a horrible film around her, what exactly does this do for the Spider-Man franchise?? Spidey, is in a rut film-wise. The last three movies have been anywhere from average to underwhelming to just plain awful. He needs an absolutely solid film to break this downward spiral, imo. And as an adaptation, some leeway needs to be in effect for these characters. I haven't seen SS so I can't comment there but from what I've heard, it's an awful movie. Margot's Harley is a bright spot but so was Garfield's Spider-Man or Emma's Gwen, but that couldn't save a dreadful production.

Spider-Man's cinematic success is more important to me than one character's depiction.

nailed it. especially the bolded part.

for me, as of now, it looks like they are straying from that in Homecoming with all the casting choices and changes to the characters.

That's why I am concerned right now.

I could end up being very wrong. and we shall see.

I really would like to see actual footage so I can see these characters in action.

 

[Venomfan]

If the Michelle J thing happens it's as bad as "Robin" being JGL's birth name in TDKR

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

If the Michelle J thing happens it's as bad as "Robin" being JGL's birth name in TDKR

Indeed.

But I also got pissed that Roland Dagget's name was changed to John in that film. Every time I watch it I yell at the screen, "It's Roland dammit!"

 

[BatsDC]

Eh, that was the least of TDKR's problems

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Spider-Man's cinematic success is more important to me than one character's depiction.

Well your in the wrong thread my friend. This isn't about this franchise's future cinematic success. It's about Mary Jane and strictly about this one character's depiction. That's why so many have been arguing so passionately about the subject at hand because they love the character and they want to see her done right.

I'm not worried about Marvel making a bad film. Something would seriously have to go wrong for Feige to let that happen. But screwing MJ up again (speaking purely as a hypothetical) or completely reimagining her could happen. I don't want that.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Well your in the wrong thread my friend. This isn't about this franchise's future cinematic success. It's about Mary Jane and strictly about this one character's depiction. That's why so many have been arguing so passionately about the subject at hand because they love the character and they want to see her done right.

I'm not worried about Marvel making a bad film. Something would seriously have to go wrong for Feige to let that happen. But screwing MJ up again (speaking purely as a hypothetical) or completely reimagining her could happen. I don't want that.

I am in the correct thread. We're talking about the characterization of MJ but we're also talking about "at what cost?"

My comment about the film's success as a whole being more important than one character's depiction is a rebuttal to your comment about overlooking everything else they get wrong if only they get MJ right. IMO, this is not a good idea. MJ is a great character and one of my favs, as I've often stated, however, her characterization is less important to me than that of Peter/Spidey and less important to me than the film's overall quality and success.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

I am in the correct thread. We're talking about the characterization of MJ but we're also talking about "at what cost?"

My comment about the film's success as a whole being more important than one character's depiction is a rebuttal to your comment about overlooking everything else they get wrong if only they get MJ right. IMO, this is not a good idea. MJ is a great character and one of my favs, as I've often stated, however, her characterization is less important to me than that of Peter/Spidey and less important to me than the film's overall quality and success.

No your in the wrong thread, if you think correctly portraying the character, isn't as important as the studio producing a successful film.

That's not what people have been debating about for pages on end. This thread has been about people loving this character and wanting what's absolutely best for her, regardless of what side we all lie, on any given debate.

Why are you coming into a thread strictly about MJ, just to tell me that getting her right isn't at the top of your priority list of what this film needs to achieve?

Okay, cool, I guess. That's your opinion and I can respect it but the majority in this thread do want too see the character (who's thread it's named after) portrayed accurately and that is something that's extremely important to us.

 

[Chesterfield]

Truth.

Reviewers respond to quality. Raimi's SM2 has characterization issues but it's a very coherent, well-made film from start to finish. That is what critics and even fans respond to--a solid, all-round movie that's entertaining. There's a reason Feige commented and said SM2 is the bar that they're holding themselves to in terms of quality.

For a contrast, ASM2 has a very good interpretation of Spider-Man however the movie around him is garbage...the critics don't care about how lippy Spider-Man is, they rate the quality of a film as a whole.

With Homecoming, as much as I want them to be totally faithful towards the core truth in the characters, really what's important is the final product and how good the movie actually is. As long as their changes, whatever they may be, suit a well-told story, and make sense in that regard--no contrivances, then I'm sure I'll probably be happy.

Though honestly, even with the differences between TV and Film, Feige and his band of filmmakers should be looking at TSSM as the bar...but hey, that's just my opinion.

Well said and I'm in full agreement. Make a great film and people will respond well to it. Nolan deviated big time from the source material, yet the way people go on, his films are the sacred holy temple to which most people worship at.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

No your in the wrong thread, if you think correctly portraying the character, isn't as important as the studio producing a successful film.

That's not what people have been debating about for pages on end. This thread has been about people loving this character and wanting what's absolutely best for her, regardless of what side we all lie, on any given debate.

Why are you coming into a thread strictly about MJ, just to tell me that getting her right isn't at the top of your priority list of what this film needs to achieve?

Okay, cool, I guess. That's your opinion and I can respect it but the majority in this thread do want too see the character (who's thread it's named after) portrayed accurately and that is something that's extremely important to us.

This thread is about MJ, her characterization in this film, the actress portraying her, MJ's characterization in this film compared to previous iterations as well as the accuracy of the portrayal according to the source material, her relationships with other characters in the movie and her relevance to the movie as a whole.

I am well within my right to discuss how I feel this incarnation of MJ is or should be valued against the entirety of the movie.

Gonna take a wild stab in the dark here and say that this will have no impact on the box office.

In my case, I'll call it severely diminished enthusiasm. This is an indicator of where they are going with this franchise. The entire cast looks WAY off

This will sink or swim based on quality.

If it's good, people will support it.

All the reasons people are listing about why Zendaya is wrong for the role or why the direction they're going in with Mary Jane is wrong for the character is quite honestly null in the long term of things because if the film is good and she is good in the film, it simply will not matter..just like the rest of the changes. Hardcore/purist fans will continue to have issues, but they'll quickly fall into the vocal minority section, so eh.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict the casting of her will not hurt the box office.

These are quotes I pulled from THIS thread and are from the very FIRST page alone. Given the importance of MJ, as many claim, her undeniable popularity, one would think the quality of the film is also important and relates to this discussion.

Your comment about wanting a great portrayal of MJ is fine. I agree with that. I've never said anything to the contrary...MJ is an exemplary supporting character and she should have a depiction that gives great satisfaction. But I disagree that somehow having a high-quality portrayal of MJ would be a forgivable mark over having a film that isn't successful, one that is of low quality or forgive other wrong doings.

Homecoming is an adaptation of the source. That means MJ, along with the other characters, are for the most part NOT going to be a carbon copy of their counterpart in 616. There are many sources to pull from and in most cases, as with all adaptations, characters end up being an amalgamation. I truly hope MJ is done well and we receive a version that is in line with the 'core truth' of her character--the main reason I go back to TSSM as a reference. It pulled from various sources to make one single coherent version of all things Spider-Man and the key factor was they kept close to the chest the idea of 'core truth.' If this film wishes to be successful on all counts, they need to really use TSSM as the benchmark for this reason. That show was able to give an excellent MJ and she was surrounded by an excellent version of the mythos. That's what Homecoming should reach for in terms of quality.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

What would turn you off to the point you don't see it? just curious.

if I feel like there's barely anything intact of the 616 universe.

and right now its not fairing well...

his social circle of characters are basically re-written.. if MJ doesn't appear to be MJ on screen... and if the Bugle really is the school paper and not a big news paper company in NYC.. im probably out.

If all that's left is a pseudo classic spider-man costume and humor.. and an ok pseudo classic take on vulture.. that's really not enough to save the film for me.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

These are quotes I pulled from THIS thread and are from the very FIRST page alone. Given the importance of MJ, as many claim, her undeniable popularity, one would think the quality of the film is also important and relates to this discussion.

Your comment about wanting a great portrayal of MJ is fine. I agree with that. I've never said anything to the contrary...MJ is an exemplary supporting character and she should have a depiction that gives great satisfaction. But I disagree that somehow having a high-quality portrayal of MJ would be a forgivable mark over having a film that isn't successful, one that is of low quality or forgive other wrong doings.

Homecoming is an adaptation of the source. That means MJ, along with the other characters, are for the most part NOT going to be a carbon copy of their counterpart in 616. There are many sources to pull from and in most cases, as with all adaptations, characters end up being an amalgamation. I truly hope MJ is done well and we receive a version that is in line with the 'core truth' of her character--the main reason I go back to TSSM as a reference. It pulled from various sources to make one single coherent version of all things Spider-Man and the key factor was they kept close to the chest the idea of 'core truth.' If this film wishes to be successful on all counts, they need to really use TSSM as the benchmark for this reason. That show was able to give an excellent MJ and she was surrounded by an excellent version of the mythos. That's what Homecoming should reach for in terms of quality.

Again, the QUALITY and SUCCESS of the film, has NO BEARING on how well MJ is adapted. Raimi proved this. He made great films, that were insanely successful but his Mary Jane was terrible.

That's your proof, right there, that the two ARE NOT mutually exclusive.

We're six films (and fifteen years) into this franchise. I've seen this franchise reach successful heights but I haven't seen my favorite female Marvel character, properly adapted on the big screen.

You may be okay about forgiving another impossible screw up of the character as long as they make a successful film but I'm not. I already did that the first go around.