Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[harryoscop]

Gwen ws probably the best thing about ASM. That series wasnt perfect but one thing they got right was the Peter/Gwen romance. I thought they were a much better couple than Peter/MJ from the first series of films

Great couple, yep and good chemistry, sure. But my problem lies within them deviating from how Gwen died in the comics imo. Her death didn't have the same impact as comic book Gwen, least for me it didn't. But that ship sailed and sad thing is, we're going to be waiting a VERY, VERY longtime until somebody gets another crack at doing it right.

 

[sl500jazz]

so, I found some more quotes that Zendaya made about her character "Michelle." I guess this explains more where the "super dry" wit will come in.

"Michelle’s kind of awkward, quiet, she kind of makes fun of everybody because she’s always in a book, always focused on studying. She has these one liners to kind of zing everybody"

and once again......that sounds nothing like MJ.

and you know who that sounds like?

Raven from Teen Titans, especially the 1st animated series. She was an awkward ( sort of ), quiet bookworm recluse who had a dry, sarcastic sense of humor. and she gradually opened up to her teammates as the show progressed.

I love Raven. but guess what, her character is so totally NOT MJ.

if anything, Starfire is more like MJ than Raven ever is. Raven is like the polar opposite of what MJ should be.

MJ should not be a sarcastic bookworm who makes fun of everybody with zingy one liners. and if she is, I actually find it quite unbelievable to go from that to someone totally completely opposite when she becomes more like classic MJ.

it would be like Raven suddenly acting ( and dressing ) like Starfire.

I don't think you'd change your personality that much.

The sarcasm and zingy one liners are totally 616 Mary Jane.

The always in a book studying is ultimate Mary Jane.

So maybe a combo of both?

 

[harryoscop]

True, she's called "Brainy Jane" in the Ultimate comics for a reason. She's a nerd just like Peter. I guess that's why, once I sat down and thought about it, I don't hate the approach they're taking as much as everybody else cuz it reminds me of Ult MJ.

 

[X Knight]

the question is, is it the right decision to try to combine both versions of MJ ( 616 and Ultimate )? Or, is trying to have it both ways creating a character that ends up not feeling like MJ at all?

when I think "quiet, awkward, bookish" I think of a more introverted character, not one who throws out zingy one liners. Zingy one liners feel more suited for playful outgoing sassy 616/SSM MJ. Usually the more quiet types are more dry, sarcastic in their humor than "zingy one liners."

so, there seems to be a contradiction there. Could it work? I suppose.

And the "making fun of everyone" part has me a bit concerned. TASM demonstrated that you have to walk a very fine line between being funny and being mean spirited.

if not delivered right, MJ could come across as "nasty" if her jokes about others comes across as too biting or mean spirited. and that doesn't suit MJ. especially if she's the type who's buried in a book, off by the side, doesn't participate in a conversation, but will chime in from time to time to make a sarcastic comment.

Plus, some have already described her as being "hot/cold" towards Peter.

and regardless of her personality, they still totally dropped the ball on her look.

even if they wanted to go for nerdy, bookish, quiet, studious MJ, they could have gone for a look more like this:

this look still retains her beauty while making her look more studious and reserved, without turning her into the frumpy, frazzled, plain looking mess they have going on in the set pics.

so......yeah.......a really weird take on the character both personality and style/look wise.

 

[sl500jazz]

the question is, is it the right decision to try to combine both versions of MJ ( 616 and Ultimate )? Or, is trying to have it both ways creating a character that ends up not feeling like MJ at all?

when I think "quiet, awkward, bookish" I think of a more introverted character, not one who throws out zingy one liners. Zingy one liners feel more suited for playful outgoing sassy 616/SSM MJ. Usually the more quiet types are more dry, sarcastic in their humor than "zingy one liners."

so, there seems to be a contradiction there. Could it work? I suppose.

And the "making fun of everyone" part has me a bit concerned. TASM demonstrated that you have to walk a very fine line between being funny and being mean spirited.

if not delivered right, MJ could come across as "nasty" if her jokes about others comes across as too biting or mean spirited. and that doesn't suit MJ. especially if she's the type who's buried in a book, off by the side, doesn't participate in a conversation, but will chime in from time to time to make a sarcastic comment.

Plus, some have already described her as being "hot/cold" towards Peter.

and regardless of her personality, they still totally dropped the ball on her look.

even if they wanted to go for nerdy, bookish, quiet, studious MJ, they could have gone for a look more like this:

this look still retains her beauty while making her look more studious and reserved, without turning her into the frumpy, frazzled, plain looking mess they have going on in the set pics.

so......yeah.......a really weird take on the character both personality and style/look wise.

I'm glad that we may be getting a witty MJ since one of my gripes about the Raimi version was that they dulled down her personality.

I wonder if she'll be a theater geek. I remember reading something about a drama club at this school. Can't remember where. I think that could be a good balance between both versions.

The frumpy clothing that she wears initially is probably meant to contrast how she'll look later. If she's attractive/fashionable (even in a conservative kind of way) from the start, then Peter wouldn't be all that surprised when he sees her gussied up later for the dance. I know not everyone is cool with that direction though.

 

[X Knight]

I'm glad that we may be getting a witty MJ since one of my gripes about the Raimi version was that they dulled down her personality.

I wonder if she'll be a theater geek. I remember reading something about a drama club at this school. Can't remember where. I think that could be a good balance between both versions.

The frumpy clothing that she wears initially is probably meant to contrast how she'll look later. If she's attractive/fashionable (even in a conservative kind of way) from the start, then Peter wouldn't be all that surprised when he sees her gussied up later for the dance. I know not everyone is cool with that direction though.

well, they just have to be careful with the witty stuff. don't overdo or make it come across as too mean spirited ( like TASM did ).

theater club would be nice.

and yeah, I'm not a fan of the "ugly duckling" transformation arc. just don't think they need to make MJ start out as "plain" or "unattractive."

and not just the looks, but how her personality will change. to go from quiet, awkward bookworm to sassy, fun loving, playful "alpha female" ( as Gunn described MJ ) is kind of a big leap.

can someone really change that much?? usually you don't go from one opposite end of the extreme to the other. more likely, you moderate to some middle ground.

idk......guess we shall see what they do with this character.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe MJ shows up at the end looking stoned and says "Face it tiger, I just hit the crack pot", and that's how Michelle gets the nickname "Mary Jane" Watson.

 

[Lantern Venom]

If they didn't opt to make someone like Iron Fist Asian, I certainly don't see them changing the ethnicity of Superman anytime soon. X Knight said it himself, when it comes to these major super-popular characters, moves like that must be considered far too risky. Also given into account all the products, merchandise sold every day with the likeness of the character, they just wouldn't do that. In 10-15 years time? Who knows, but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Can it happen with MJ, Lois or Gwen? Sure, seems like it has happened already with one of them, no matter how popular they are and how ingrained Lois and MJ are in the public consciousness, they are still supporting players. Clark, Bruce or Peter are a different story.

Superman was played by a man who is part Japanese and it worked. If Zendaya is successful in the role, the controversy will die out except for the tiny percentage of people who don't like the diversifying of pop culture.

 

[X Knight]

Superman was played by a man who is part Japanese and it worked. If Zendaya is successful in the role, the controversy will die out except for the tiny percentage of people who don't like the diversifying of pop culture.

that is true about Dean Cain.

however, as far as I know, Cain's Clark/Superman wasn't a drastic change from how the character traditionally looks and behaves. That's why the show worked - he looked and felt like Superman.

Now, I could be wrong, but Cain's Clark wasn't like some polar opposite of what Clark Kent should be. nor was his Superman.

they didn't make Cain's Superman blond. They didn't give him a mohawk or change his costume. They didn't take away Clark's glasses. They didn't take him out of the Bugle or turn him into a doctor. It was all very much traditional and familiar.

When I watch episodes of Lois and Clark, I see Clark and Superman in Cain - even though he is half-Asian. I don't see a character whom I don't recognize in terms of overall look and behavior. Cain's Superman looks and feels like the Superman I know and love.

with Z's MJ, if you remove the race change from the equation, they appear to be taking the character in a drastically different direction.

Her style. her look. the way she dresses. her apparent personality and the way she apparently behaves. they are all different and almost complete opposite to what I think of MJ.

I look at her set pics and read about her character, I don't see MJ at all. Right now, I see a different character entirely. and that has nothing to do with her race.

 

[AnneFan]

Maybe MJ shows up at the end looking stoned and says "Face it tiger, I just hit the crack pot", and that's how Michelle gets the nickname "Mary Jane" Watson.

The wit of Raven. Don't ever change.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This is my first post here in a spidey thread but at a time when the entire fanbase seems divided on some of the choices in the upcoming movie. Even though I don't really like the changes that has been made to the supposed MJ and those who are vocal about it do have valid points to do so but I can't help but think Zendaya's role in Homecoming is considerably smaller than we might think it is so it wouldn't become a spot of bother anyway.

Some of the changes made in the movie does seem totally unnecessary but that wouldn't take me out of this movie. This is the MCU movie I am least excited about at the moment but I hope Holland and Keaton and others can elevate the movie to make it really awesome.

 

[AnneFan]

I wouldn't be surprised if SM2 was still considered top dog after all this, though.

 

[KalvinEllis]

Superman was played by a man who is part Japanese and it worked. If Zendaya is successful in the role, the controversy will die out except for the tiny percentage of people who don't like the diversifying of pop culture.

I always forget about Dean Cain. Fair point about that. I don't have a problem with diversity, I would just rather see certain type of characters be translated more accurately to the big screen, both from a personality as well as visual standpoint. I don't see how that makes me part of a "percentage", I'm just a fan who wants to see the core Spider-Man cast get more faithful live-action treatment, especially after what we were presented with in the Raimi films. I'm going to go see this movie regardless of what casting choice I may disagree with or how unrecognizable some characters may feel like, but labeling people does nothing for anybody.

 

[KalvinEllis]

that is true about Dean Cain.

however, as far as I know, Cain's Clark/Superman wasn't a drastic change from how the character traditionally looks and behaves. That's why the show worked - he looked and felt like Superman.

Now, I could be wrong, but Cain's Clark wasn't like some polar opposite of what Clark Kent should be. nor was his Superman.

they didn't make Cain's Superman blond. They didn't give him a mohawk or change his costume. They didn't take away Clark's glasses. They didn't take him out of the Bugle or turn him into a doctor. It was all very much traditional and familiar.

When I watch episodes of Lois and Clark, I see Clark and Superman in Cain - even though he is half-Asian. I don't see a character whom I don't recognize in terms of overall look and behavior. Cain's Superman looks and feels like the Superman I know and love.

with Z's MJ, if you remove the race change from the equation, they appear to be taking the character in a drastically different direction.

Her style. her look. the way she dresses. her apparent personality and the way she apparently behaves. they are all different and almost complete opposite to what I think of MJ.

I look at her set pics and read about her character, I don't see MJ at all. Right now, I see a different character entirely. and that has nothing to do with her race.

Bingo.

 

[spidey-dude]

honestly didn't know Cain was mixed race - looks like Superman to me

with red hair Z should fit, so hopefully the end makeover rumour is true

 

[Dark Raven]

What if Zendaya were revealed at the end of the movie to be Angelica Jones aka Firestar?

She is essentially Mary Jane by any other name. At least she was in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends.

This is John Romita Sr's design for her (when she was still called Heatwave):

 

[Havok83]

Does Marvel even have the rights to her? She could easily fall under the Xmen and be a Fox character

honestly didn't know Cain was mixed race - looks like Superman to me

really? The guy looks Japanese

 

[Dark Raven]

Does Marvel even have the rights to her? She could easily fall under the Xmen and be a Fox character



really? The guy looks Japanese

I don't know if she falls under X-Men. She was invented for Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, and only later linked to the X-Men and made a mutant. But she was also with the Avengers. She could easily belong either to Sony or to Marvel. And certainly her alter ego looks exactly like classic 616 Mary Jane, so if Fox did use her, they wouldn't be able to make her look like that. Not that Marvel are making their own MJ look anything like the classic version.

As for Dean Cain, he probably looks more Japanese now. But he didn't always look so much, especially when you saw him in live action as Superman.

 

[Havok83]

Great couple, yep and good chemistry, sure. But my problem lies within them deviating from how Gwen died in the comics imo. Her death didn't have the same impact as comic book Gwen, least for me it didn't. But that ship sailed and sad thing is, we're going to be waiting a VERY, VERY longtime until somebody gets another crack at doing it right.

I'll agree with that. I hate the fact that they even killed her. It happened too abruptly with little build up. I think they should have deviated from the books by keeping her alive. I think if the movie was written better, it may have worked but as it stood, a memorable moment like that was wasted on a crap film

I don't know if she falls under X-Men. She was invented for Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, and only later linked to the X-Men and made a mutant. But she was also with the Avengers. She could easily belong either to Sony or to Marvel. And certainly her alter ego looks exactly like classic 616 Mary Jane, so if Fox did use her, they wouldn't be able to make her look like that. Not that Marvel are making their own MJ look anything like the classic version.

As for Dean Cain, he probably looks more Japanese now. But he didn't always look so much, especially when you saw him in live action as Superman.

No, she was always linked to the X-men. Her origin story in AF was that she was a mutant that was a former member of the X-men before striking off on her own and linking up with Spidey. She then made her comic debut in the pages of Uncanny X-men and her mini series was an X-men spinoff. She was made an X-men proper in recent history. If anything, she may fall into the same grey area that SW and QS did

If Fox does hold the rights to her, they can make her look however they want. A redhead is a pretty generic look. They dont need to alter her bc one thinks she resembles MJ (which I dont really think she does). Thats ludicrous.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

This is my first post here in a spidey thread

Welcome to the Spider-Hype!

I wouldn't be surprised if SM2 was still considered top dog after all this, though.

same

 

[QWoods]

Maybe MJ shows up at the end looking stoned and says "Face it tiger, I just hit the crack pot", and that's how Michelle gets the nickname "Mary Jane" Watson.

This is the funniest thing I've seen in a while.

 

[X Knight]

I always forget about Dean Cain. Fair point about that. I don't have a problem with diversity, I would just rather see certain type of characters be translated more accurately to the big screen, both from a personality as well as visual standpoint. I don't see how that makes me part of a "percentage", I'm just a fan who wants to see the core Spider-Man cast get more faithful live-action treatment, especially after what we were presented with in the Raimi films. I'm going to go see this movie regardless of what casting choice I may disagree with or how unrecognizable some characters may feel like, but labeling people does nothing for anybody.

exactly.

these characters, especially comic book characters ( since comics are a VISUAL medium ), have 2 identities. A visual identity ( how they look ) and character identity ( how they behave, their character type, etc. ).

If you change one identity, at least try to retain as much of the other one so that the character still feels familiar on some level. If you change both identities, then you've pretty much made a whole new character.

In Dean Cain's case, aside from him being half-Asian ( which, tbh, I didn't even know until I read it online much later - I didn't know he was half-Asian when I 1st saw him in Lois and Clark ), his Clark/Superman pretty much retained both the visual and character identity of the character.

let's take another example, MJ from the Ultimate cartoon show.

Ultimate show MJ retains the visual identity of the character - white, red hair, green eyes. So, at least she looks like classic MJ.

Her character identity was changed, though. They made her an aspiring journalist who wants to work for the Bugle. They basically transposed Peter's connection to the Bugle onto MJ. They basically transposed Lois Lane onto MJ.

So, from a character type perspective, she seems like a different character than comic MJ. But, hey, at least, she looks like MJ. You can immediately identify her as MJ.

Now, just imagine if they changed her visual identity, too. What if they made her blonde like Gwen? Or a short-haired brunette like Betty? What if they made her dress all punk-like with a Mohawk and nose ring? What if they made her Asian?

If they did any of that, they'd not only change her character identity, but her visual identity as well. And then, she might as well just be a different character, because she would neither look nor feel like MJ.

I mean, if she were a short-haired brunette who's an inspiring journalist who wants to work for the Bugle, well that sounds more like a story arc they'd give to.........Betty Brant. Might as well just make the character Betty Brant.

 

[X Knight]

honestly didn't know Cain was mixed race - looks like Superman to me

with red hair Z should fit, so hopefully the end makeover rumour is true

and that's a good point about people who are mixed race. some, you can't even tell they are mixed race. some look more like one race than the other.

with Cain, I didn't immediately think he's Asian when I first saw him as Clark/Superman in L+C. It wasn't until much later when I learned he was mixed race.

with Zendaya, or Amandla Stenberg, I wouldn't know either are mixed race if I didn't look it up online. I'd think both are black.

another bi racial black/white actress is Meghan Markle ( who plays Rachel on the show Suits ). When I first saw her on Suits, I didn't immediately identify her as black - I thought she was a white girl.....lol. It wasn't until someone pointed it out online that I learned she was mixed race. And still, when I look at images of her online, I still think she looks white. If I didn't know she was bi racial, I'd have no idea just looking at her.

 

[Dark Raven]

exactly.

these characters, especially comic book characters ( since comics are a VISUAL medium ), have 2 identities. A visual identity ( how they look ) and character identity ( how they behave, their character type, etc. ).

If you change one identity, at least try to retain as much of the other one so that the character still feels familiar on some level. If you change both identities, then you've pretty much made a whole new character.

In Dean Cain's case, aside from him being half-Asian ( which, tbh, I didn't even know until I read it online much later - I didn't know he was half-Asian when I 1st saw him in Lois and Clark ), his Clark/Superman pretty much retained both the visual and character identity of the character.

let's take another example, MJ from the Ultimate cartoon show.

Ultimate show MJ retains the visual identity of the character - white, red hair, green eyes. So, at least she looks like classic MJ.

Her character identity was changed, though. They made her an aspiring journalist who wants to work for the Bugle. They basically transposed Peter's connection to the Bugle onto MJ. They basically transposed Lois Lane onto MJ.

So, from a character type perspective, she seems like a different character than comic MJ. But, hey, at least, she looks like MJ. You can immediately identify her as MJ.

Now, just imagine if they changed her visual identity, too. What if they made her blonde like Gwen? Or a short-haired brunette like Betty? What if they made her dress all punk-like with a Mohawk and nose ring? What if they made her Asian?

If they did any of that, they'd not only change her character identity, but her visual identity as well. And then, she might as well just be a different character, because she would neither look nor feel like MJ.

This. And if they change her name to, to something like Michelle, and it's only her initials that spell MJ, then there's really not much left of her at all.

 

[Dark Raven]

and that's a good point about people who are mixed race. some, you can't even tell they are mixed race. some look more like one race than the other.

with Cain, I didn't immediately think he's Asian when I first saw him as Clark/Superman in L+C. It wasn't until much later when I learned he was mixed race.

with Zendaya, or Amandla Stenberg, I wouldn't know either are mixed race if I didn't look it up online. I'd think both are black.

another bi racial black/white actress is Meghan Markle ( who plays Rachel on the show Suits ). When I first saw her on Suits, I didn't immediately identify her as black - I thought she was a white girl.....lol. It wasn't until someone pointed it out online that I learned she was mixed race. And still, when I look at images of her online, I still think she looks white. If I didn't know she was bi racial, I'd have no idea just looking at her.

Meghan Markle probably looks more white than Zendaya. Her feet look like ginger roots unfortunately.