Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[webhead921]

Good
-Christian Bale's physical appearance
-movie focused on the development of Bruce
-Bale nailed bruce wayne (to me he felt just like bruce in year one)
-Gordon and Alfred were actually significant unlike any previous films
-I really like the one liners. I think every super hero movie needs a few good one liners. (you look like a guy who takes himself too seriously. You need to lighten up)
-The batmobile chase scene
-The story line

Criticisms (not necessarily bad)
-In the movie, I felt Bruce wayne was always the person, and batman the mask (In the burton films, I always thought batman was the person, and bruce was just a mask)
-I didn't feel like the film had a cool batcave (hopefully this will be developed in the Dark Knight)
-The villians weren't as memorable as I would like them to be

Overall, I think Begins is a great new take on Batman. I think it is among the best comic book movies, along with Batman '89 and Spider-man 2

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Criticisms (not necessarily bad)
-In the movie, I felt Bruce wayne was always the person, and batman the mask (In the burton films, I always thought batman was the person, and bruce was just a mask)

I definitley agree with this...

However i think this may change in TDK... as the monster begins to consume him entirely.

'your getting lost inside this monster of yours' - he will lose sight and become more cut off.

 

[MacLeod]

Pro's
It had some martial arts training
He created batarangs
Good chase scene
Swarm of Bats
Bale is more physically fit
Gordon was played well

Con's
Bruce didn't decide to fight for justice until after college compared to praying and vowing as a child to do so
Bruce got thrown in jail
They never stated or showed the various martial arts he is supposed to know and the implications they did make were poor if any
Can't see any fight scenes
Mansion burnt down
Bruce acted drunk and immature all the time while with company
Costume had no visible symbol, had cape clips, looked robotic, the mask was two sizes two small, and it was another rubber suit, the 7th to be exact
His parents didn't die leaving a Zorro movie
Nothing was styled like a bat and TDK doesn't look like it either
Bruce is afraid of Bats
The batcave was the underground railroad with access from the house
The tumbler is a tumbler not a batmobile and will be a tumbler in TDK too
The tumbler has to launch out and into the cave, what if it's damaged and can't?
Bruce got all materials and tools without changing a thing from Wayne Enterprises, all he did was stick ears on a mask and a symbol on a rubber suit. I know that is from the origin of the character but it makes him look lazy and not creative in my opinion.
Bruce/Batman is supposed to be extremely smart, in BB he doesn't demonstrate that enough, if at all
Everything is filmed way too close to the action and drama moments
He can fly/glide
He gave a kid a valuable piece of equipment
The girl found out who he was again
"It's not who I am underneath, it's what I DOOOOOOO that defines me."
Fox knew Bruce was Batman right away
There are deleted scenes even though the director says there aren't any

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't want to make a whole list debate/response thing, but the deleted scene thing is kind of old.

The final product was pretty much 95% the same as the draft that was leaked on the internet. Just about all of it was the same. Movies always have deleted footage or cutting room floor footage, or extra angles or takes that don't make it in, or lines of dialogue here and there. But usually that's not enough for a whole entire scene.

Look at Spider-man 2.1. Most of what was restored was hardly anything. Only one thing that was a whole entire deleted scene was put back in (MJ and her friend). And it was not what Raimi wanted. Raimi's instincts served him well for the theatrical cut, and the movie is better off shorter, and tightened up.

Most deleted scenes are deleted for a reason.

 

[MacLeod]

I don't want to make a whole list debate/response thing, but the deleted scene thing is kind of old.

The final product was pretty much 95% the same as the draft that was leaked on the internet. Just about all of it was the same. Movies always have deleted footage or cutting room floor footage, or extra angles or takes that don't make it in, or lines of dialogue here and there. But usually that's not enough for a whole entire scene.

Look at Spider-man 2.1. Most of what was restored was hardly anything. Only one thing that was a whole entire deleted scene was put back in (MJ and her friend). And it was not what Raimi wanted. Raimi's instincts served him well for the theatrical cut, and the movie is better off shorter, and tightened up.

Most deleted scenes are deleted for a reason.

I agree that some deleted scenes are not necessary and not a big deal to cut out of the movie. I was just listing things I didn't like and was on a role. As far as the deleted scenes are concerned it would be nice to at least see them somewhere as a special edition or something. The fact that they are not there to see at all annoys me along with the rest of the things I've stated.

 

[Mr.E.Nygma]

And no more depth can essentially be added with deleted scenes anyway, it's really good like this. They nailed the characters' psychologies with nuance, which some previous batflicks lacked. BB had fine dialogue in general, and a good twist. I liked also the structure, with flashbacks powering it up, and how many things were made on purpose and used for the handy side of the thing, not just flashy (e.g. the cape which was a glider, though this is a bit sci-fi and could be in the wrong section)

Actually, I like BB too much to analyse clearly and reasonnably, but there are a few points to correct for TDK.

 

[GoogleMe94]

I definitley agree with this...

However i think this may change in TDK... as the monster begins to consume him entirely.

'your getting lost inside this monster of yours' - he will lose sight and become more cut off.

i know ive stated this before, but i hope the nolan movies dont try to mimick the spiderman movies (it already did that with the "its what i DOO" stuff), like have batman become "bad" and do things he wouldnt normally do and then have alfred give him the ol' aunt may morality speech "you can turn into someone ugly" BS.

The tumbler has to launch out and into the cave, what if it's damaged and can't?

LOL yeah i was wondering the same thing the other day. you mean that EVERY time he leaves he has to leap across this gigantic gap through a waterfall? that is kinda....strange. looks cool, but i dont think its very good for longterm use before batman crash lands in the brush below, and then has to have alfred help him get out of the gutter. man, that would be funny as heck to see. and yeah, what happens if hes working on the batmobile? questions to ponder...i guess nolan DID leave something up to the imagination. hee hee.




as for the whole 'im a fan of the comics but i am not', i like certain comics, not all of them. i happen to really like the long halloween and was dissapointed in falcones portrayel after seeing him in BB. i dont read ALL comics, just some that i actually thought were well done. most, though, i could care less about. but i would say i liked SOME comics, and it just so happen that nolan kind of took some of the characters i liked in the comics and made them into jokes, or be the butt of jokes, and i didnt like it. so there.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

i know ive stated this before, but i hope the nolan movies dont try to mimick the spiderman movies (it already did that with the "its what i DOO" stuff), like have batman become "bad" and do things he wouldnt normally do and then have alfred give him the ol' aunt may morality speech "you can turn into someone ugly" BS.

I'm not talking about an alien taking him over... or him becoming arrogant for being famous(ridiculous angle raimi )

I feel batman will go into a type of depression and the joker will push him to the edge. He doesn't understand the Joker, he can't stop the Joker - he'll be asking himself - WHY?


At least he could understand Ra's al Ghul's frame of mind and even understood scarecrows weakness.


Trust me, i don't think a 'conventional Raimi ploy' could be pinned on Nolan...


Twists and turns may break my bones... but Nolans desicions will never hurt me!!! LOL (where'd that come from?)

 

[The Mighty Wind]

Cons
Gotham was a little too "realistic" and lost a touch of the noirish feeling
Goyeresque one liners
Rachael
Lack of subtlety in dialogue

Pros
Pretty much everything else. I love the characters, I love the gadgets, I love the action (I also love the fight scenes), I love the story, I love the tone. It is very, very close to being the perfect Batman movie for me.

As far as all the people complaining about Scarecrow, I found Ra's more than anything to lack the connection to his comic book counterpart, but maybe that's just me. Still loved the portrayal of Ra's and quite simply do not have a bone to pick about Scarecrow.

And as far as people talking about Batman being in a batsuit vs. Crane dressed fully as a Scarecrow, I think its time they took a breather. The batsuit has function: being able to protect Wayne, instill fear etc. and practicality: he can change into it hidden, it doesn't prohibit his movements much etc. a scarecrow costume would be absolutely ludicrous. Exactly where would Crane change into such a costume, how would it help him go about his workings, what real purpose would it serve? Its like the idea of the Riddler going around doing his crimes in a green jumpsuit (yes, I realize some people support this idea). Its something which is believable on the page, and not when its done with real people.

 

[Robin91939]

Wrong:
-Flass was not an Ex-Green Barrett, jacked, good looking crooked cop.
- Falcone was a thug of a criminal, not a unprivileged man who was above the law because of his wealth and ability to buy people off. Yes, he bough people off, but he wasn't as "suave" as Falcone should be.
-No Harvey Dent.


Those, really, are my only complaints about this film.

-R

 

[SuperDaniel]

The ony thing BB got wrong to me was the realistic aspect. I think it was overdone. I really miss Burton`s Gothic Gotham. And i wanted it to be darker. Overall, i miss the athmosphere of the Burton movies.

-I really didnt like the scene Batman confronts Rachel and says rattling the cage. The costume looked bad there.

It got everything else right in my opinion.

 

[Robin91939]

I think that they got the look of the villains down pretty well. I think that they NAILED Ra's Al Ghul and his charicterization and the dynamic he and Batman/Bruce Wayne have (the rejected father and the offer of a family and the end of his crusade).

Very good stuff.

-R

 

[RobC]

Right -

He wasn't a gay icon.
The fear gas scenes.
Batman absolutely pummeling people, even if you couldn't see it.
Enough comic references to keep the fanboys happy.
The whole Bruce Wayne/Batman thing
It was gritty.

Wrong -

Same as Burton, they didn't stick to the comics. (They really didn't)
What was Nolan thinking with Katie Holmes?
The whole nice coat thing.


That's all I got... Great movie though.

 

[MacLeod]

I hated, simply hated how Bruce didn't choose to become a fighter of justice when he was a child. The fact that he almost killed someone, became a thief, got thrown in jail, and really only studied the martial arts from one person (that we're aware of) makes me despise the origin in Batman Begins.

 

[RobC]

He didn't study martial arts from Ducard or Ra's, when he first arrives at the temple he already knows several styles of kung fu and ju-jitsu, remember?

 

[El Payaso]

I hated, simply hated how Bruce didn't choose to become a fighter of justice when he was a child. The fact that he almost killed someone, became a thief, got thrown in jail, and really only studied the martial arts from one person (that we're aware of) makes me despise the origin in Batman Begins.

What schocked me was how Joe Chill was a trembling coward chicken**** instead of a menacing cold figure with a low voice. And how he was captured instantly the very night he killed the Waynes.

 

[MacLeod]

He didn't study martial arts from Ducard or Ra's, when he first arrives at the temple he already knows several styles of kung fu and ju-jitsu, remember?

I enjoy people who ask questions like "remember?" as if the statement that was written was done so in a moment of forgetfullness. Maybe I don't remember this particular fact because it was never stated in a way in which remembering it was a possibility. He did mention various techniques/styles as he was fighting Ra's in the temple but his previous lifestyle of stealing and fighting hunger never showed time for previous training. Even if he did have training prior to Ra's the mere fact that I, as well as others I have spoken to, missed it or was not clear about it shows, at least to me, that it wasn't handled well. For what is supposed to be the best trained, greatest fighter in the world you would think the movie would make it a little clearer. Also, he did study martial arts from Ra's, it's called Ninjitsu, why else would he be training on top of pillars, defending against sticks, wearing a Ninja outfit, and using a Ninja To? According to your theory he may have known Kung Fu and Ju-Jitsu before but the whole point is that Ra's added to it or trained him alone depending on how you see it. Why I don't like it is because even if either one of us is right the fact that we're having this written discussion is because it was shown poorly on film. I'm a martial artist myself, I want to see, or at least clearly know, what was studied in the film. Begins doesn't do that for me.

 

[MacLeod]

What schocked me was how Joe Chill was a trembling coward chicken**** instead of a menacing cold figure with a low voice. And how he was captured instantly the very night he killed the Waynes.

Joe Chill was apparently only there as a pawn for a bigger reason. I'm not crazy about that either. I was excited to hear Joe Chill was in the movie but then seriously disappointed on how and why he was shown. The way it was written made it seem as if anyone could have killed the Wayne's, having the name of Joe Chill didn't matter.

 

[Victarion]

Sue me, its not faithful to the comics, but I think Begins got 2 things right--Scarecrow being the head honcho of Arkham Asylum (how ironic) and Ra's being an ominous father figure to Bruce Wayne/Batman. Plus Bruce overcoming his demons, specifically the scene where he tosses his gun into the bay.

---Morzan

 

[El Payaso]

Plus Bruce overcoming his demons, specifically the scene where he tosses his gun into the bay.

---Morzan

I agree. And Bruce in the cave surrounded by bats.

The way he overcomes his demons is done masterfully.

 

[samsnee]

The Rachel Dawson character was the only downside for me. I think the character wasn't developed very strongly, and Katie's performance only emphasized it.

 

[El Payaso]

Rachel Dawson

lol, wink wink.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Joe Chill was apparently only there as a pawn for a bigger reason. I'm not crazy about that either. I was excited to hear Joe Chill was in the movie but then seriously disappointed on how and why he was shown. The way it was written made it seem as if anyone could have killed the Wayne's, having the name of Joe Chill didn't matter.

I always liked Batman's origin best where the killer is not named at all.

Not killed by Chill, certainly not killed by Joker. My favorite way is when the killer is not named or apprehended. It was basically the corrupt society of Gotham that took Bruce's parents away from him.

Ra's line went something like 'as a man, you can be destroyed or locked up'

That's how I look at it with Joe Chill or Joker being the killer. Joe Chill was locked up and he was destroyed in Begins(later locked up in the comics too). But the corrupt society will never fully be destroyed. It's one of the reasons Batman continues his never ending war on crime. Hope that makes sense.

 

[RobC]

Yeah man, fair play, he did learn Ninjitsu, but to me it was always implied that he'd done more then steal and live rough, like they didn't show him improving his detective skills, but he was still able to deduce things...

 

[MacLeod]

Yeah man, fair play, he did learn Ninjitsu, but to me it was always implied that he'd done more then steal and live rough, like they didn't show him improving his detective skills, but he was still able to deduce things...

I'm glad you got those implications because I would have liked them be clearer for me. It's not that I can't read implied things in movies but you would think for the martial art knowledge that Batman is supposed to know it wouldn't be left up to the," I think he trained before Ra's," discussion. As far as deducing things I'm not really sure there was that much to deduce. Seriously, how much detective work did he do by himself that would show he was on his way to become the world's best detective?