Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[BubbaGump]

Thanks for that completely unbiased comment, Spunky.

TEOL.

It's not a matter of assage (new word ), but personal preference.

 

[Keyser Soze]

PROS:

- Christian Bale's performance as Bruce Wayne/Batman. Bale is arguably the best actor of his generation, and brought a darker dimension to Bruce and Batman alike.
- At last, we get a film where Batman is the main character.
- The detail that went into establishing Batman's origin
- Liam Neeson's performance as Ra's al Ghul. His subtle menace was the perfect contrast to the OTT shenanigans of Arnie and Tommy Lee Jones.
- The cinematography by regular Nolan collaborator Wally Pfister. He builds on the beautifiul landscape work he did with "Insomnia", giving both the icy peaks of the League of Shadows' mountain retreat and the decaying cityscape of Gotham a life of their own.
- Michael Caine's performance as Alfred. Caine is a legend, and here he really made me care about a character I've been largely indifferent to in the past.
- Gary Oldman as Jim Gordon. For the first time, the Gordon from the comics has made it to the world of film.
- The murder of Bruce's parents. All melodrama is stripped away, and we're left with a blunt, brutal killing. Easily the most unsettling depiction of the murder seen outside of the comics.
- The little scene with Gordon and young Bruce after the murder. Great acting by Oldman here.
- The scene with Alfred and young Bruce after the funeral. Perfectly sets up the Bruce/Alfred dynamic for the whole film, mostly through Caine's facial expressions.
- "SWEAR TO ME!"
- Falcone's speech at his club. I had my issues with the character, but this scene was great.
- Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow. Possibly the slimiest performance I've seen in a superhero movie. Murphy's skin-crawling, reptilian take on Dr. Crane made him an unnerving presence on-screen, with or without the mask.
- "I'm sorry, Dr. Crane isn't here right now, but if you'd like to make an appointment..."
- Batman's first appearance at the docks
- Morgan Freeman and Rutger Hauer. Both did fine, but neither part was big enough to warrant a seperate point, so I'll pair them up.
- The car chase. It gets better every time I watch it.
- Wayne Manor being burnt down, and the subsequent Bale/Caine scene. "NEVAH!"
- The closing scene with Gordon. Straight out of the comics.
- The Joker card. So awesome it warrants a seperate point.
- Nolan's direction, and the fact that he was able to incorporate enough of his signature elements into the film to make it stand proudly amongst the rest of his canon, while at the same time remaining true to the spirit of the comics.

CONS:

- Katie Holmes as Rachel Dawes. Poorly written character. It's clear she's just "the love interest", and thus serves as an awkward presence in the film. Her scenes with Cillian Murphy's Crane are the only ones that work well.
- Tom Wilkinson as Falcone. I'm a big fan of Wilkinson as an actor, and he performed well with what he had to work with. But Falcone was just so neglected, I feel. He was made into a petty hood, and I feel they lost much of the presence the character holds in "The Long Halloween".
- That ANNOYING kid! GAH! Every time he appeared on-screen, I wanted to smack him! It's almost always cringe-worthy when they have these "superhero is nice to a kid" moments in comic book movies.
- "Nice coat." *PWOOOOOOOOOOOSH!*
- Ken Watanabe as the fake Ra's al Ghul. Too "BWAHAHAHAHAHA!"
- Batman revealing his identity to Rachel. That was just dumb.
- Gordon's comedy shtick. It just didn't seem to fit with all the other Gordon scenes, as if they were tacked on in a script rewrite. The worst example of this was "I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE!" in the middle of what is supposed to be a serious, life-or-death situation.
- "I don't have to save you." I really wasn't sure what to make of this. For getting Batman so bang-on for the rest of the film, this moment felt oddly out of character. Saying Batman won't kill......unless the guy REALLY deserves it sets up a dangerous precedent. The scene would have been better if Batman had tried to save Ra's, but Ra's chose death.

 

[SuBe]

PROS:

- Christian Bale's performance as Bruce Wayne/Batman. Bale is arguably the best actor of his generation, and brought a darker dimension to Bruce and Batman alike.
- At last, we get a film where Batman is the main character.
- The detail that went into establishing Batman's origin
- Liam Neeson's performance as Ra's al Ghul. His subtle menace was the perfect contrast to the OTT shenanigans of Arnie and Tommy Lee Jones.
- The cinematography by regular Nolan collaborator Wally Pfister. He builds on the beautifiul landscape work he did with "Insomnia", giving both the icy peaks of the League of Shadows' mountain retreat and the decaying cityscape of Gotham a life of their own.
- Michael Caine's performance as Alfred. Caine is a legend, and here he really made me care about a character I've been largely indifferent to in the past.
- Gary Oldman as Jim Gordon. For the first time, the Gordon from the comics has made it to the world of film.
- The murder of Bruce's parents. All melodrama is stripped away, and we're left with a blunt, brutal killing. Easily the most unsettling depiction of the murder seen outside of the comics.
- The little scene with Gordon and young Bruce after the murder. Great acting by Oldman here.
- The scene with Alfred and young Bruce after the funeral. Perfectly sets up the Bruce/Alfred dynamic for the whole film, mostly through Caine's facial expressions.
- "SWEAR TO ME!"
- Falcone's speech at his club. I had my issues with the character, but this scene was great.
- Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow. Possibly the slimiest performance I've seen in a superhero movie. Murphy's skin-crawling, reptilian take on Dr. Crane made him an unnerving presence on-screen, with or without the mask.
- "I'm sorry, Dr. Crane isn't here right now, but if you'd like to make an appointment..."
- Batman's first appearance at the docks
- Morgan Freeman and Rutger Hauer. Both did fine, but neither part was big enough to warrant a seperate point, so I'll pair them up.
- The car chase. It gets better every time I watch it.
- Wayne Manor being burnt down, and the subsequent Bale/Caine scene. "NEVAH!"
- The closing scene with Gordon. Straight out of the comics.
- The Joker card. So awesome it warrants a seperate point.
- Nolan's direction, and the fact that he was able to incorporate enough of his signature elements into the film to make it stand proudly amongst the rest of his canon, while at the same time remaining true to the spirit of the comics.

CONS:

- Katie Holmes as Rachel Dawes. Poorly written character. It's clear she's just "the love interest", and thus serves as an awkward presence in the film. Her scenes with Cillian Murphy's Crane are the only ones that work well.
- Tom Wilkinson as Falcone. I'm a big fan of Wilkinson as an actor, and he performed well with what he had to work with. But Falcone was just so neglected, I feel. He was made into a petty hood, and I feel they lost much of the presence the character holds in "The Long Halloween".
- That ANNOYING kid! GAH! Every time he appeared on-screen, I wanted to smack him! It's almost always cringe-worthy when they have these "superhero is nice to a kid" moments in comic book movies.
- "Nice coat." *PWOOOOOOOOOOOSH!*
- Ken Watanabe as the fake Ra's al Ghul. Too "BWAHAHAHAHAHA!"
- Batman revealing his identity to Rachel. That was just dumb.
- Gordon's comedy shtick. It just didn't seem to fit with all the other Gordon scenes, as if they were tacked on in a script rewrite. The worst example of this was "I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE!" in the middle of what is supposed to be a serious, life-or-death situation.
- "I don't have to save you." I really wasn't sure what to make of this. For getting Batman so bang-on for the rest of the film, this moment felt oddly out of character. Saying Batman won't kill......unless the guy REALLY deserves it sets up a dangerous precedent. The scene would have been better if Batman had tried to save Ra's, but Ra's chose death.

You forgot the lack of a Visible Fight Scene in the Movie as a Con.

 

[Keyser Soze]

You forgot the lack of a Visible Fight Scene in the Movie as a Con.

Batman VS Ra's al Ghul was visible enough. I didn't put it as a con, as it served its purpose, but didn't include it as a pro as it wasn't particularly spectacular either.

 

[GoogleMe94]

the last batman movie where i couldnt really make out the fight scenes very well was Batman Returns, actually. i could make them out in B89, but in BR it was so dark it was hard to see certain things. but after seeing batman begins, it makes BR fights look superb. BB takes the cake with bad fight scenes. not that the fights were bad, i just couldnt see them, and the way they were edited was not very flattering to the fight style they supposedly invented just for the film. sad. hopefully that will be improved with TDK, i have no doubt nolan must have heard from someone down the chain how crappy his fight scenes were. i think BB was the first action movie hes done, so maybe he wasnt very skilled in doing fights, i just hope he improves.

 

[Keyser Soze]

the last batman movie where i couldnt really make out the fight scenes very well was Batman Returns, actually. i could make them out in B89, but in BR it was so dark it was hard to see certain things. but after seeing batman begins, it makes BR fights look superb. BB takes the cake with bad fight scenes. not that the fights were bad, i just couldnt see them, and the way they were edited was not very flattering to the fight style they supposedly invented just for the film. sad. hopefully that will be improved with TDK, i have no doubt nolan must have heard from someone down the chain how crappy his fight scenes were. i think BB was the first action movie hes done, so maybe he wasnt very skilled in doing fights, i just hope he improves.

And Nolan's insistence on overseeing all filming himself, rather than leaving fight scenes etc. to second unit directors more experienced in filming such scenes, could play a part in any flaws.

I don't think the fight scenes were bad. But like I said, not great either. They didn't detract from the film, but sometimes the camerawork stopped them from ADDING to the film either. I think that camera style made sense in the dock scene, but elsewhere...not so much.

Though I will say this. These fight scenes with all the quick cuts isn't so much a problem exclusive to "Begins", as it is an epidemic taking over a whole lot of films of recent years, in more than just fight scenes. It's like filmmakers think our attentions will drift off if we're left on the same shot too long, so its CUT-CUT-CUT-CUT-CUT all the time. Check out the Korean film "Oldboy". There is a complex fight scene that's done in one long tracking shot. And it's so jarring to watch it, because seeing that we're all so used to Hollywood films, we're just not used to seeing a scene like that without any cuts.

EDIT: This is the scene I'm talking about - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umv2yzk4mCM

 

[The Joker]

the last batman movie where i couldnt really make out the fight scenes very well was Batman Returns, actually.

Seriously

 

[Mr. Socko]

I don't agree with all of your cons because I liked most of the comedy bits, but excellent list, Keyser. Though there's one I'd like to address. What exactly do you mean by Ken Watanabe as decoy Ra's being too "Bwhahaha?"


Oh and btw, I love that long fight sequence in Oldboy. I've heard it was inspired by 2D arcade games where you're just walking only back and forth to kill the bad guys ala Mortal Kombat.

 

[sasquatchs]

Seeing as he was a decoy I don't mind Watanabe's over the top performance, But Ra's turned out to be pretty bwhahaha himself in the end

There's no way I'd be able to recognise Begins as a Nolan film on its own merits, the style feels completely different to his other work. I think he works much better with his own material, and the more thoughtful music of David Julyan. Maybe it's the film feeling so rushed and exposition heavy compared with the usual slow build he goes for

 

[Keyser Soze]

Seeing as he was a decoy I don't mind Watanabe's over the top performance, But Ra's turned out to be pretty bwhahaha himself in the end

There's no way I'd be able to recognise Begins as a Nolan film on its own merits, the style feels completely different to his other work. I think he works much better with his own material, and the more thoughtful music of David Julyan. Maybe it's the film feeling so rushed and exposition heavy compared with the usual slow build he goes for

Don't say that, I'm writing a dissertation based on the principle that "Batman Begins" is identifiable as a Christopher Nolan movie.

As for Neeson/Watanabe, I think Neeson's performance was much more restrained, and therefore effective. With Watanabe, by BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!, I was referring to his delivery, all arching eyebrows and curling lips.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Seeing as he was a decoy I don't mind Watanabe's over the top performance, But Ra's turned out to be pretty bwhahaha himself in the end

There's no way I'd be able to recognise Begins as a Nolan film on its own merits, the style feels completely different to his other work. I think he works much better with his own material, and the more thoughtful music of David Julyan. Maybe it's the film feeling so rushed and exposition heavy compared with the usual slow build he goes for

All of your points are usually solid, but here, I am inclined to bring up the fact that every film Nolan has yet to make is an adaptation of someone else's work. Unless you were meaning something else.

 

[sasquatchs]

I mean it's not really his script, it's a Goyer script with some Nolan embelishes isn't it? Their work is like chalk and cheese to me, I don't think the comic knowledge Goyer brought to the table was worth it. It's an uncomfortable mix that doesn't play to Nolan's strengths in character rather than action. The film lacks confidence in what it wants to be, comedy Gordon being one example.

Although wasn't Gordon driving the Tumbler a late rewrite by Nolan as Keyser guessed? *Shudders that Nolan might be responsible* I don't know who to blame anymore, Nolan seems to have been aiming for something much more mainstream than I expected, based on his other work.

Don't say that, I'm writing a dissertation based on the principle that "Batman Begins" is identifiable as a Christopher Nolan movie.

t: The broad Nolan themes like obsession and guilt are present but the atmosphere, pacing, dialogue, characterization etc all feel very different to me

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I honestly can't tell if you're serious or not. Scarecrow's costume isn't meant to "look better" than a bat costume nor is it suppose to look "cool," but rather scary. Again, I didn't see Scarecrow in this movie. Only Potato Sack Man. If they had placed Batman in a bird costume, I wouldn't consider him Batman.

Maybe they designed the costume to fit the story, instead of the other way around.

The way Crane is portrayed in the film - a respected doctor performing sadistic, clandestine experiments on mental patients - leaves little room for a Scarecrow costume, and trying hard to insert one in would feel forced. The mask made total sense in the context of the film - it was discreet (which is of most importance to someone commiting illegal, immoral acts), practical and effective, and enough of a throwback to the comic look to satisfy (most) fans.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I mean it's not really his script, it's a Goyer script with some Nolan embelishes isn't it? Their work is like chalk and cheese to me, I don't think the comic knowledge Goyer brought to the table was worth it. It's an uncomfortable mix that doesn't play to Nolan's strengths in character rather than action. The film lacks confidence in what it wants to be, comedy Gordon being one example.

The story treatment was written up by David Goyer. But then he and Nolan co-wrote the script, I believe.

Also, someone said all of Nolan's films have been adaptations. Not QUITE true, though almost:

Following - His own story. He wrote, directed, and even filmed it himself
Memento - Adapted from his brother's short story, which he helped develop
Insomnia - Remake of a Norwegian film
Batman Begins - Based on some obscure comic book series
The Prestige - Adapted from a novel by Christopher Priest

Although wasn't Gordon driving the Tumbler a late rewrite by Nolan as Keyser guessed? *Shudders that Nolan might be responsible* I don't know who to blame anymore, Nolan seems to have been aiming for something much more mainstream than I expected, based on his other work.

I was actually thinking that Goyer made Gordon Mr. Exposition/Comedy, while Nolan incorporated most of the good stuff, all those great Gary Oldman moments where he says a whole lot by saying little to nothing, in his direction. But hey, "I've been wrong before..."

t: The broad Nolan themes like obsession and guilt are present but the atmosphere, pacing, dialogue, characterization etc all feel very different to me

Atmosphere is necessarily something unique to this film, so I'll give you that.

Pacing I think bears similarities. I've picked up on techniques of mise-en-scene based around chronology that he re-uses in his other films.

Characterization I think fits in, Nolan continually revisits similar protagonists, and I see shades of Leonard Shelby and perhaps even a bit of Robert Angiers in Bale's Bruce Wayne.

Dialogue, there is a noticeable difference, yes. Perhaps because the screenplay was written with Goyer, instead of his usual collaborator, his brother Jonathan. I think Jonathan Nolan is a far superior writer to Goyer, even though I greatly enjoyed "Begins". Still, I'm expecting the writing to get a big boost in "The Dark Knight".

 

[Mr. Socko]

Thanks for the correction Mr. Soze.

 

[El Payaso]

In a unfinished PRO's list I include:

- Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Liam Neeson, Tom Wilkinson.
- Batman suit.
- The Flass interrogation scene.
- The Bruce Wayne/Falcone scene.
- The first Batman's apparition.
- The serious tone.
- The scene with Bruce at the temple trying to find Ducard amongst the ninjas.
- The Tumbler chase. Fantastic.
- The train falling down.

 

[GoogleMe94]

Though I will say this. These fight scenes with all the quick cuts isn't so much a problem exclusive to "Begins", as it is an epidemic taking over a whole lot of films of recent years, in more than just fight scenes. It's like filmmakers think our attentions will drift off if we're left on the same shot too long, so its CUT-CUT-CUT-CUT-CUT all the time. Check out the Korean film "Oldboy". There is a complex fight scene that's done in one long tracking shot. And it's so jarring to watch it, because seeing that we're all so used to Hollywood films, we're just not used to seeing a scene like that without any cuts.

EDIT: This is the scene I'm talking about - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umv2yzk4mCM

i totally know what you mean. also films like the bourne movies (dont know about the 3rd one) use the ultra fast quick cut fighting, and other movies i know but cant remember. its really bad, and hopefully they will stop with that soon. i just watched the Ras fight in BB and seriously, i couldnt make out much. the only halfway visible fight in BB was the very first one when hes in prison, but thats IT. everything else was too quick.

hollywood, QUICK CUT FIGHTING SUCKS!! i hope some bigtime hollywood executive heard me...


oh, another Con to add the the list:

-Gordo riding the batmobile. just.....no.

 

[GoogleMe94]

We'll you have to be specific about what Right/Wrong is. You mean Right/wrong according to the comics,look, overall feel???

Because according to (their world) the new take on batman nolans' vision. I dont think they got anything wrong.

i mean all of it. the comics, things that bugged you or were just plain stupid or things that you really liked, etc. pros and cons list of everything you liked a nd disliked, not just was it good in the comics. i mean as a movie, the comics are not the movie.

btw im pretty sure your all aware that i am NOT a comics fan, i am just a batman fan, so i dont really go by what happened in da comics and all that, i just go with what i liked in the films. so if some of my comments seem like a non-fanboy, thats because im NOT a fanboy of the comics, im a fanboy of the films. im not bashing the comics, i just prefer the films.

 

[GoogleMe94]

One thing I wanted to see for a long time and that BB finally got right was the Batman/Gordon relationship.

eeeeeeeeehhhh,........a little. close, but i feel that TDK will get the gordon/batman thing better. only good part with bats and grodon was the last scene of the movie. everything before that, with gordon riding batmobile, just didnt work for me. i want to see detective type meeting like we see in the long halloween, things like that that perked my interest.

 

[Mr. Socko]

i mean all of it. the comics, things that bugged you or were just plain stupid or things that you really liked, etc. pros and cons list of everything you liked a nd disliked, not just was it good in the comics. i mean as a movie, the comics are not the movie.

btw im pretty sure your all aware that i am NOT a comics fan, i am just a batman fan, so i dont really go by what happened in da comics and all that, i just go with what i liked in the films. so if some of my comments seem like a non-fanboy, thats because im NOT a fanboy of the comics, im a fanboy of the films. im not bashing the comics, i just prefer the films.

Yet in your original post, when you made this very thread, contains:

-Falcone didnt come off as dangerous as as he is in the comics, and he talked like a common hood, like a bad godfather impression. came off more funny then threatning.

-scarecrow. looked nothing like in the comics, and certainly wasnt as scary or creepy. and when did scarecrow become a young pretty boy with a whisper?

You say you do not use the comics as the basis, but rather define the films on their own merit, yet when naming the things you dislike about Batman Begins, you list certain things because they were different than in the comics. It's not fair, you use the comics as a way to downplay things you didn't like in BB but when talking about the Tim Burton bat-films, you completely throw the comic guides out the window. If you don't read the comics then you wouldn't know what Scarecrow of the comics look like, and you wouldn't be disappointed with his look in Begins, now would you? You are never fair when comparing and contrasting these things.

And this is coming from someone whose favorite Batman movie was made in 1989.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Pro's:

1. Tone -- no other Batman film comes close to matching it. Nolan's more realistic take only makes it a stronger interpretation in my opinion.

2. Batman/Bruce is finally given center stage in a Batman film instead of the villain(s).

3. Acting. Bale, Caine, Neeson, Oldman, Freeman, and Murphy were all great in my opinion.

4. The Tumbler. It kicks ass, that's all there is to it.

5. Batman as a predator and a hurricane. I loved how they showed that he was a ninja and used the fear of the unknown to scare the living hell out of his prey. And when he did appear, he literally was like a hurricane. He could wipe out 10 guys at a time with blistering speed and power.

6. The music. Batman Begins has one of my favorite scores of all-time. Zimmer and Howard did a hell of a job.

7. The gadgets. The kevlar, the grapple gun, the memory cloth, the device that called the bats.

8. The ending scene on the rooftop. Best *****in' ending ever.

Con's:

1. Rachel Dawes -- combination of poor writing and terrible acting.

2. Dialogue -- certain words and phrases were used far too often. Cheesy one-liners as well.

3. The little kid in the Narrows -- completely pointless and annoying.

4. The scene at burned down Wayne Manor where Rachel says that she's waiting for the immature jerk Bruce to come back because mature Batman Bruce is apparently not good enough for her. The scene made no sense.

5. The microwave emitter plot sucked.

6. The climax was basically a crappy generic action movie despite the fact that the rest of the film is so much better than that in my opinion. Huge disappointment there. Luckily, the final scene makes up for it.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

eeeeeeeeehhhh,........a little. close, but i feel that TDK will get the gordon/batman thing better. only good part with bats and grodon was the last scene of the movie. everything before that, with gordon riding batmobile, just didnt work for me. i want to see detective type meeting like we see in the long halloween, things like that that perked my interest.

You didn't like their first meeting ("Now we're two")? Or the scene at Gordon's house? Or Gordon helping Rachel out of Arkham? The batmobile scene wasn't their only interaction.

It was the beginning of their relationship, so of course there weren't "official" rooftop pow-wows until the end. But the early parts of the movie I thought perfectly captured the essence of their relationship, and why they have one at all. They clearly needed each other.

 

[Nightwing1977]

oh yeah, cillian murphy getting tazored by a girl TOTALLY kicks the crap out of jack nicholsons joker.



*shutters* that would be terrible.

That his opinion. No need to roll your eyes at someone's opinion.

btw im pretty sure your all aware that i am NOT a comics fan, i am just a batman fan, so i dont really go by what happened in da comics and all that, i just go with what i liked in the films. so if some of my comments seem like a non-fanboy, thats because im NOT a fanboy of the comics, im a fanboy of the films. im not bashing the comics, i just prefer the films.

Your first comment right there just prove you're BatmanRules33/Batwing6655/Dr.Satan here & brownish33 at IMDB. I seen recently that same comment "i am NOT a comics fan, i am just a batman fan" at IMDB from brownish33. Knew it was you with that comment here when you said something quite the same at IMDB, brownish. Nice try.

Yet in your original post, when you made this very thread, contains:



You say you do not use the comics as the basis, but rather define the films on their own merit, yet when naming the things you dislike about Batman Begins, you list certain things because they were different than in the comics. It's not fair, you use the comics as a way to downplay things you didn't like in BB but when talking about the Tim Burton bat-films, you completely throw the comic guides out the window. If you don't read the comics then you wouldn't know what Scarecrow of the comics look like, and you wouldn't be disappointed with his look in Begins, now would you? You are never fair when comparing and contrasting these things.

And this is coming from someone whose favorite Batman movie was made in 1989.

Pwned.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Im a fan of the comics AND the movies i prefer the bruce wayne batman of B89/BR where he is a far more intense person, obsessed genious lost in the monster of batman and unlike other interpretations the batman is a dark part of his soul created when his parents died rater then a tool created to fight criminals this is similer to TDKR batman as wellm as the mainstream comics to a lesser extent. i also prefer the batmobile a vehicle created from the ground up to be batmans main mode of transport and batsuit of BR on the other hand i like the commisioner gordon of BB a nearly beaten honest cop n a corrupt force as well as the Lucius fox portrayal calm fatherly but a enginerring and scientific genious (like batman should be in BB) though i dont like that lucius aquires all of batmans equipment. Alfred gouth IS alfred penny worth plain and simple not a cockney geezer working for the waynes but bruce/bats confidant always ready with a witty barb.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Thier are elements in all batfilms that are good and bad i sometimes like to put them together in my head for my perfect batfilm.