Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[Eddie Brock]

Pro's:

Everything.



Con's:

Nothing.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

Nitpicking always happens while we're waiting for a sequel. Watch--when TDK hits, there will be plenty of people praising Begins again.

Back when B '89 came out, we (my friends and I) loved it for about a year, then we nitpicked it to death, and some of us even preferred Batman Forever over B '89. Crazy stuff happens.

 

[MacLeod]

Nitpicking always happens while we're waiting for a sequel. Watch--when TDK hits, there will be plenty of people praising Begins again.

Back when B '89 came out, we (my friends and I) loved it for about a year, then we nitpicked it to death, and some of us even preferred Batman Forever over B '89. Crazy stuff happens.

I may be the exception. Right after I saw Begins I thought it was a decent movie but I nitpicked the hell out of it as a Batman movie. From the moment it was over to this day I have always had the same problems with it. TDK looks like it will be decent too but that doesn't mean I'm not going to find fault with it. I don't blindly like things just because it's Batman, I expect to see Batman media and see it as Batman and not some semi-similar example of the character. Begins, and possibly TDK, was a vigilante movie plain and simple in my opinion, no amount of time, arguements, or waiting for a sequal will make me think of it as a Batman movie.

 

[Anita18]

What doesn't make sense about the 3rd act?

The whole global scheme re: the League of Shadows. And the microwave emitter operation on the train took it down a few notches to typical superhero fare, at least to me. It didn't bother me when I watched it, it's more an eyebrow-raising thing. At least I didn't think, "WHAT???!?!" while watching it, like I did for Superman Returns.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

I may be the exception. Right after I saw Begins I thought it was a decent movie but I nitpicked the hell out of it as a Batman movie. From the moment it was over to this day I have always had the same problems with it. TDK looks like it will be decent too but that doesn't mean I'm not going to find fault with it. I don't blindly like things just because it's Batman, I expect to see Batman media and see it as Batman and not some semi-similar example of the character. Begins, and possibly TDK, was a vigilante movie plain and simple in my opinion, no amount of time, arguements, or waiting for a sequal will make me think of it as a Batman movie.

Yeah, but eventually you're just going to have to let it go. No amount of posting or venting on a message board about what you hated about the Batman films is going to solve anything. I mean, I've been there myself with movies like Sin City, Superman Returns, and Hulk, but I eventually just got over it. The films weren't my cup of tea, I said my piece, and moved on.

When do you think that's going to happen for you and the Batman films? I mean, you could do what my buddy WormyT did with Superman Returns, and make a cool fan trailer of your *ideal* Batman movie. It's hard work, but it's a great way to channel your frustrations into something constructive.

(Not to mention, fan trailers are a lot of fun when done well)

 

[Lobster Charlie]

The whole global scheme re: the League of Shadows. And the microwave emitter operation on the train took it down a few notches to typical superhero fare, at least to me. It didn't bother me when I watched it, it's more an eyebrow-raising thing. At least I didn't think, "WHAT???!?!" while watching it, like I did for Superman Returns.

What didn't make sense about it? I always hear people say that Begins suffered from over-exposition...but now it doesn't make sense?

Do you mean you just didn't find it believable? They do explain their wacky plot very thoroughly, you know.

 

[Damiean Dark]

I may be the exception. Right after I saw Begins I thought it was a decent movie but I nitpicked the hell out of it as a Batman movie. From the moment it was over to this day I have always had the same problems with it. TDK looks like it will be decent too but that doesn't mean I'm not going to find fault with it. I don't blindly like things just because it's Batman, I expect to see Batman media and see it as Batman and not some semi-similar example of the character. Begins, and possibly TDK, was a vigilante movie plain and simple in my opinion, no amount of time, arguements, or waiting for a sequal will make me think of it as a Batman movie.

BB forgot the soul when it was created it has a great look actors, plot and director but it forgot the soul of Batman the obsessive, drive to be Batman isnt aparent fromm Wayne, the burning intelligence is completely missing, micheal caine didnt work as alfred, the fight/chase scenes are terrible....hell you all know the drill here.

 

[Anita18]

What didn't make sense about it? I always hear people say that Begins suffered from over-exposition...but now it doesn't make sense?

Do you mean you just didn't find it believable? They do explain their wacky plot very thoroughly, you know.

It didn't make sense in the world that Nolan spent the first hour building up. I mean, after Bruce's parents are killed and he learns the extent of mob corruption in Gotham, Bruce secludes himself in Asia learning ninja skills, then he goes back to Gotham to take down said mob. And oh, for the finale, it turns out that the group he learned ninja skills from is now in Gotham and they have an evil plan to make everyone in the city crazy and destroy each other.

I mean, the kind of group that Ducard made out the League of Shadows to be, you'd think that they'd be a bit more secretive and cunning about it, instead of using a microwave emitter to conspicuously vaporize all the water in the city. They're ninjas after all, not Lex Lutho.

I don't have a huge beef about it - it didn't ruin the movie for me. It's one of those things that kinda makes you go, "O...kaaaay..."

 

[roach]

BB forgot the soul when it was created it has a great look actors, plot and director but it forgot the soul of Batman the obsessive, drive to be Batman isnt aparent fromm Wayne, the burning intelligence is completely missing, micheal caine didnt work as alfred, the fight/chase scenes are terrible....hell you all know the drill here.

What didnt work for me was that wayne was too sane. For a guy to dedicate his life to fighting crime as a superhero it takes a bit of insanity. Bale was too ok with things. In B89 and BR Michael Keaton portrayed a BW who never got over his parents death.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

It didn't make sense in the world that Nolan spent the first hour building up. I mean, after Bruce's parents are killed and he learns the extent of mob corruption in Gotham, Bruce secludes himself in Asia learning ninja skills, then he goes back to Gotham to take down said mob. And oh, for the finale, it turns out that the group he learned ninja skills from is now in Gotham and they have an evil plan to make everyone in the city crazy and destroy each other.

I mean, the kind of group that Ducard made out the League of Shadows to be, you'd think that they'd be a bit more secretive and cunning about it, instead of using a microwave emitter to conspicuously vaporize all the water in the city. They're ninjas after all, not Lex Lutho.

But, they were being very cunning about it. And they carried out their plan disguised as policemen, SWAT team members, and NINJAS! They stole something from Wayne Enterprises (which W.E. themselves quickly covered up), and used a drug that *could only be absorbed through the lungs*. They had insider help through Crane, who used Falcone (the biggest criminal in Gotham) to do all the major dirty work, neither of whom knew exactly they were doing in the first place, other than making money.

If Batman hadn't been tracking Rachel when she went to Arkham, their plan would've been carried out in it's entirety, and NOBODY would've figured out why everyone was going crazy and tearing each other to shreds.

If anything, Begins demonstrated the hierarchy of criminality, and how, in the end, Batman must be a bit of a criminal himself in order to do what he's doing. After all, he IS doing something outside of the law, and he is NOT authorized by the government to be a crimefighter.

As Ra's says himself, the League had infiltrated every single level of Gotham's infrastructure. Do you think the average citizen knows who the League of Shadows is? Do you think a co-worker knows that their colleague is working for Ra's Ah Ghul? Think about it! I think the whole point of this Ra's character was to show just how deep the levels of criminality Bruce/Batman would be facing.


So in essence, I think Begins wrapped up the first half and the last half pretty well. We follow Bruce on his journey, his recollection of why he set out on said journey, his encounter with a great teacher who finalizes his lessons, his split from the teacher and his return home. We then watch him assemble his tools, defeat each one of his enemies,and revealing the ultimate adversary is the very person he was trained by. Bruce LEFT the league of shadows in order to save Gotham from the likes of groups like these. We were to believe that Ra's and the League were stopped in Act One, only to find they were still going on with their plan in Act Three.

Now, it may not have flowed perfectly, but I'm addressing the whole "doesn't make sense" part of your comment. I think it actually makes a lot of sense, when you really lay it all out! If you didn't personally like it, well...to each their own, of course.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

What didnt work for me was that wayne was too sane. For a guy to dedicate his life to fighting crime as a superhero it takes a bit of insanity. Bale was too ok with things. In B89 and BR Michael Keaton portrayed a BW who never got over his parents death.

Well, for me Batman has always been a sane person who is not out for revenge. He wants to use his skills to help people. A true hero. So I really like the "hope" motif they used in Batman Begins.

My problems with Batman Begins
- Christian Bale: yes. I know he is widely praised for his performance, but I felt he was so shallow and hollow.
- Stupid one-liners. Nothing against humour. I like the self-irony when he said "Does it come in black?" but not such stupid things like "nice coat".
- Batman created by R'as Al'Ghul. yes to me that's the worst change ever made to the source material in all Batman movies. making the Joker the killer of Batman's parents was bad, but this was too much.
- Bruce Wayne the lost soul argument. I like the more focused one.
- Bruce Wayne afraid of bats! Come on! What was that? I like the version much more when he just sits at home and thinks about a way to strike terror in the hearts of criminals and the bat flies in. Omen! Even in "THe Man Who Falls" he wasn't afraid of bats, he regarded his fall more as faith and in a philosophical way.
- And the whole movie lacks a timeless style. In a few years I bet it will look so dated. Anton Furst's design was far superior.
- Last point: The movie seemed so... generic. Just like every other Superhero flick.

But I like this movie, really.

 

[roach]

It was the one thing that I liked about Michael Keaton's performance...even when he is confronted by Vicky in the Batcave he still really cant explain why he does it. I do agree that he isnt out for revenge but to me there has to be some insanity in someone when the best idea to handle crime is to dress like a bat.

 

[Damiean Dark]

It was the one thing that I liked about Michael Keaton's performance...even when he is confronted by Vicky in the Batcave he still really cant explain why he does it. I do agree that he isnt out for revenge but to me there has to be some insanity in someone when the best idea to handle crime is to dress like a bat.

YES thier has to be a duality/insanity to batman to do what he does he isnt a hero like superman no matter how much some of you want him to be the death of his parents messed him up keaton portrays this inner obsession amazingly imo my trouble with BB is wayne is a guy who runs off on a whim after a down talking from falcone and uses a bat motif to scare criminals rather then with keaton where batman really is part of him a dark part of the soul created when his parets died. Batman isnt soley a badass guy who drops down on thugs people! B89/BR got the soul of batman right which BB lacked IMO batman seemed souless in that movie just a big bang action film.

 

[christpunchers]

Yeah I got the feeling that Keaton was playing a semi-nut the whole time... that's what you need Bale to do.. he becomes too engrossed in what he's doing he no longer knows if he's Bruce Wayne or if he's Batman anymore.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

Uh, Bale was playing Batman at the very beginning of Batman's career. He's not quite "nutty" until he's been doing it for a while.

 

[Damiean Dark]

NO!!! the inner part of bruce wayne IS batman not after a long time in a simple costume it was created the day his parents died ITS A DARK PART OF HIS SOUL PERSONIFIED NOT A TOOL TO SCARE THUGS. I had VERY high hopes for Bale and he is good but watching him in american psycho where he is obsessed, and crazy shows what he could have done with the Batman/wayne role i dont expect the level of insanity of American Psycho but it showed what bale is capable of. I said a long time ago that he seemed on autopilot in BB and i think its even more evident after repeated viewing 2 years later and compared to his other film work.

 

[roach]

Bale's Bruce seemed like a serious version of Adam West's Bruce. He was just too well off. In BB if the judge didnt let Chill go then Bruce wouldnt have ever become Batman.
In B89 Keaton's Bruce insane. Here is a guy who every night before he goes out rehashes the moment his parents died. He is someone who doesnt know how to be Bruce Wayne and is more comfortable as Batman. Katie Holmes character got it right(Though I dont know how after finding out several hours before that he was Batman) Bruce is the mask, Batman is the person...but that was never expressed in Bale's performance.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Bruce is the mask, Batman is the person...but that was never expressed in Bale's performance.

No. Who says that? That was not the way until "Zero Hour" and they've changed it already back. Those stupid Frank Miller ideas!

 

[roach]

No. Who says that? That was not the way until "Zero Hour" and they've changed it already back. Those stupid Frank Miller ideas!

Katie Holmes character says this at the end of BB
and while I know it's vogue to hate everything Frank Miller does there are few bad ideas that he has when it comes to Batman and the idea that Batman is the true Bruce isnt one of them....All Star Batman and Robin doesnt all of a sudden void Dark Knight Returns or Batman Year One

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Katie Holmes character says this at the end of BB
and while I know it's vogue to hate everything Frank Miller does there are few bad ideas that he has when it comes to Batman and the idea that Batman is the true Bruce isnt one of them....All Star Batman and Robin doesnt all of a sudden void Dark Knight Returns or Batman Year One

i just like Year One (and it basically brought nothing new to the character). I couldn't care less about DKR, DKSA & ASB.

 

[roach]

i just like Year One (and it basically brought nothing new to the character). I couldn't care less about DKR, DKSA & ASB.

if you felt that Year One brought nothing new to the character then you dont know the character Batman

 

[sasquatchs]

Katie Holmes character got it right(Though I dont know how after finding out several hours before that he was Batman) Bruce is the mask, Batman is the person...but that was never expressed in Bale's performance.

That was a big problem with Begins overall. It relies on dialogue to such an extent that almost all the ideas and development are brought across through it, character's opinions and motivations aren't justified through drama, or if they are, often contradict what they say. Everything interesting seems to happen off screen, we're just told what happens with nothing to back it up

 

[roach]

Carmine Falcone was created by Miller and debuted in Batman Year One but I guess that isnt adding much to the character or stories

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

if you felt that Year One brought nothing new to the character then you dont know the character Batman

Please, enlighten me.

What was new, besides the change that Alfred was there in his childhood?

 

[Damiean Dark]

Carmine Falcone was created by Miller and debuted in Batman Year One but I guess that isnt adding much to the character or stories

Another character reduced to a cliched mess in BB. Im all for cliches if they work my choice for Falcone would have been Andy Garcia you could easily say he is too obvious for a italian mob boss but he would have been perfect IMO his quite menace would be more in tune with BB then Wilkinsons bumbling mafioso.