Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[sclabguy]

i loved almost every part of Batman Begins. as a batman fan is the the film i had been waiting for since b&r. but somethings bug me eveytime i watch the movie. well for one every scene envolving katie Holmes, and some of those scenes are REALLY good, but i just can't get that scientoligist-loving-cruize ***** out of my head. another scene when batman is explaining to gordon about the tram and the fear toxin - eeeeehhh i feel like bale just memorized the line, did it a bunch of times and was sick of it on the final take

also that old man employee who works for the sewer system, you know "it's gonna blow!" a plain and simple bad actor. those are my biggest pet peeves on BB

 

[Two-Face]

My favourite is when Bruce discovers Batcave and the music in the background is excellent.

Wrong:
I didn't like Joe Chill killed, I wished Batman searched for his parents killer
Rachel character was great but wrong actress played her.
Alfred never ages during the flashbacks.

Right:
Everything else I love.

 

[Cain]

Yes that scne with the adult Bruce standing in the middle of the cave with all the Bats flying around him was straight up visual poetry I absolutely loved it. That scene did a lot more subtextually when it came to explaining the character than many of the tired and direct monologues sprinkled throughout the film ever did.

 

[Angeloz]

My favourite is when Bruce discovers Batcave and the music in the background is excellent.

Wrong:
I didn't like Joe Chill killed, I wished Batman searched for his parents killer
Rachel character was great but wrong actress played her.
Alfred never ages during the flashbacks.

Right:
Everything else I love.

Alfred ages? How could you suggest that?!?

Angeloz

 

[Cain]

By the time Bruce came back from training Alfred should've at least looked like this

t:

 

[Angeloz]

Heh. But Alfred's ageless...

Angeloz

 

[30+Dark]

Here's my take-

Cons-

Terribly edited fight scenes, can't see a damn thing.(Fair enough for the docks scene, from the criminals point of view maybe , but EVERY scene? makes me think the batsuit didn't look good in movement or that Nolan can't direct fight scenes).

Bale. Great actor, unfortunately he phones in his performance in Begins, just goes wide-eyed a lot and doesn't show any of the intensity he has in other films.His bat-voice is not good either, sounds too forced.

Rachel Dawes- well need I say more, cough(Katie) Cough, a badly written, and badly acted part.

Gotham- Too realistic, looks just like Chicago, except for the Narrows which has been nicked from Blade Runner.

Brit actors with crappy American accents-Bale's okay. Young Bruce-"In myyy gaarrdenn". ugh. Carmine Falcone-"ya got a lot of noive kid", awful.

The tumbler- quite interesting vehicle, would much rather have had a batmobile though.

Fear- Most overused word ever in a film, "To become fear you must use fear to turn those who use fear against those afraid of..er ...fear".


Cockney Alfred- a likeable character, but its Michael Caine, not Alfred!

Batsuit-Big rubber wetsuit which managed to make a buffed up Bale look fat! And the cape is just a blanket. That changes size every so often.Ears are way too small, giving him an egg-shaped head at times (TDK looks even worse in this respect).

Cheesy dialogue-Awesome reveal..."I'm Batman!", looks up.."Nice coat", whoops, how to spoil a moment or what! "I've gotta get me one of those!", "Excuse me", "can you drive stick"......

Bruce deciding to become Batman when he's a college dropout age 23, rather than the young boy who dedicates the rest of his childhood and teenage years training to become who he decided to be since the night his parents were murdered.

The boy-"batman will save us"...oh dear.

Gordon driving the tumbler to comedy effect-who's idea was that?

Fight with Ra's- "I won't kill you..but I don't have to save you..........but seeing as you've got no chance of getting off this train, which is about to plunge a 100 feet and explode into a huge fireball , due to my actions, I probably am killing you really, oh well, lets hope nobody notices," flies off.


Pro's-

training scene in Iceland, I mean the himalayas.

Batman's first appearance at the docks-must admit this scene is awesome. When the goon vanishes into the crate, and the other two look up to see Batman above them, just as he drops.Very impressive.

Batman being fear induced and set on fire by The Scarecrow-pretty damn good stuff.

Demon Batman-excellent idea.

Interrogation scene with Flass.

Joker card ending.

I do like the film, but for me it is not the best Batman film.

 

[Nightwing1977]

By the time Bruce came back from training Alfred should've at least looked like this

t:

Shouldn't it be the other way around? After all, your hair is darker when you're younger & it turn lighter when you're older.

 

[Orin]

Here's my take-

Cons-

Terribly edited fight scenes, can't see a damn thing.(Fair enough for the docks scene, from the criminals point of view maybe , but EVERY scene? makes me think the batsuit didn't look good in movement or that Nolan can't direct fight scenes).

Bale. Great actor, unfortunately he phones in his performance in Begins, just goes wide-eyed a lot and doesn't show any of the intensity he has in other films.His bat-voice is not good either, sounds too forced.

Rachel Dawes- well need I say more, cough(Katie) Cough, a badly written, and badly acted part.

Gotham- Too realistic, looks just like Chicago, except for the Narrows which has been nicked from Blade Runner.

Brit actors with crappy American accents-Bale's okay. Young Bruce-"In myyy gaarrdenn". ugh. Carmine Falcone-"ya got a lot of noive kid", awful.

The tumbler- quite interesting vehicle, would much rather have had a batmobile though.

Fear- Most overused word ever in a film, "To become fear you must use fear to turn those who use fear against those afraid of..er ...fear".


Cockney Alfred- a likeable character, but its Michael Caine, not Alfred!

Batsuit-Big rubber wetsuit which managed to make a buffed up Bale look fat! And the cape is just a blanket. That changes size every so often.Ears are way too small, giving him an egg-shaped head at times (TDK looks even worse in this respect).

Cheesy dialogue-Awesome reveal..."I'm Batman!", looks up.."Nice coat", whoops, how to spoil a moment or what! "I've gotta get me one of those!", "Excuse me", "can you drive stick"......

Bruce deciding to become Batman when he's a college dropout age 23, rather than the young boy who dedicates the rest of his childhood and teenage years training to become who he decided to be since the night his parents were murdered.

The boy-"batman will save us"...oh dear.

Gordon driving the tumbler to comedy effect-who's idea was that?

Fight with Ra's- "I won't kill you..but I don't have to save you..........but seeing as you've got no chance of getting off this train, which is about to plunge a 100 feet and explode into a huge fireball , due to my actions, I probably am killing you really, oh well, lets hope nobody notices," flies off.


Pro's-

training scene in Iceland, I mean the himalayas.

Batman's first appearance at the docks-must admit this scene is awesome. When the goon vanishes into the crate, and the other two look up to see Batman above them, just as he drops.Very impressive.

Batman being fear induced and set on fire by The Scarecrow-pretty damn good stuff.

Demon Batman-excellent idea.

Interrogation scene with Flass.

Joker card ending.

I do like the film, but for me it is not the best Batman film.

Nice post. I agree with a lot of these points!

 

[30+Dark]

^ Thanks Orin.

 

[Mladen]

Here's my take-

Bruce deciding to become Batman when he's a college dropout age 23, rather than the young boy who dedicates the rest of his childhood and teenage years training to become who he decided to be since the night his parents were murdered.

Actually I thought this was one of the film's strongest points.
Here's why:
Children never actually chase their goals. I wanted to be a cowboy when I was Bruce's age, I'm sure some of you wanted to be rock stars etc. But kids don't have the common sense or the motivation to chase those kinds of goals, they're really just imaginative fantasies. Your goals as a child are rarely in line as your goals as an adult: thats why adult bruce has to make the decision to become Batman. Children just aren't focused enough.

That, and the fact that the comics always seemed to gloss over his teen and college years. He just turned adult over night and became a master chemist/blackbelt/detective in what looks like his twenties, then becomes Batman in his thirties. I don't know which comic you mean, but I don't remember it being suggested that he went off to train any earlier than his 20s?

 

[Orin]

I prefered the way this was handled in the "Mask of the Phantom" Animated movie, if you've seen that one.

 

[30+Dark]

Actually I thought this was one of the film's strongest points.
Here's why:
Children never actually chase their goals. I wanted to be a cowboy when I was Bruce's age, I'm sure some of you wanted to be rock stars etc. But kids don't have the common sense or the motivation to chase those kinds of goals, they're really just imaginative fantasies. Your goals as a child are rarely in line as your goals as an adult: thats why adult bruce has to make the decision to become Batman. Children just aren't focused enough.

That, and the fact that the comics always seemed to gloss over his teen and college years. He just turned adult over night and became a master chemist/blackbelt/detective in what looks like his twenties, then becomes Batman in his thirties. I don't know which comic you mean, but I don't remember it being suggested that he went off to train any earlier than his 20s?

But to me that's what set Young Bruce Wayne apart. Its almost like he didn't have a choice, it wasn't a fantasy for him to fight crime when he was older it was a necessity. I'm not that massive a comic reader myself but I was under the impression that very young Bruce grew up in Wayne Manor with Alfred, training his mind, and his athletism and fitness, and a few years later went off to study criminal psychology, and then travelled the world to complete his studies of martial arts etc. In the graphic Novel "Prey", (which is great by the way), Dr Hugo Strange is trying to discover Batman's identity by using psychological profiling, he realises and states that no man could become Batman in a mere 5 years, and guesses correctly (in the story) that it would take at least 20 years, for someone to become Batman from scratch. That's the way I like to see it anyway.And that's why I was disappointed in Batman Begins that Bruce becomes Batman in 7 years.

 

[Mladen]

But to me that's what set Young Bruce Wayne apart. Its almost like he didn't have a choice, it wasn't a fantasy for him to fight crime when he was older it was a necessity. I'm not that massive a comic reader myself but I was under the impression that very young Bruce grew up in Wayne Manor with Alfred, training his mind, and his athletism and fitness, and a few years later went off to study criminal psychology, and then travelled the world to complete his studies of martial arts etc. In the graphic Novel "Prey", (which is great by the way), Dr Hugo Strange is trying to discover Batman's identity by using psychological profiling, he realises and states that no man could become Batman in a mere 5 years, and guesses correctly (in the story) that it would take at least 20 years, for someone to become Batman from scratch. That's the way I like to see it anyway.And that's why I was disappointed in Batman Begins that Bruce becomes Batman in 7 years.

I'm guessing different writers have presented it different ways over the years.
To me, there's nothing extraordinarily tragic about Bruce's parent's deaths that should mean that he MUST become a winged avenger (plenty of kids lose their parents, and in much bloodier and shocking circumstances). Its a fact that most people get over it. The thing that DOES set him apart is his enormous wealth and access to whatever resources he wants. Its vital that he has a crystalising moment as an adult which shapes how he's going to go about fixing his grief. in the film, its where he stops seeking revenge, and realises the only way he can ever feel even slightly better is to make sure that what happened to him will never happen to anyone else, at least in his own city. its the realisation that Chill is just another guy, but it was imposed poverty via political/police/corporate corruption that killed his parents. I personally don't believe a child could have realised this. The child thought that revenge would fix his problems, which it didn't.

At least thats how I feel about the topic. To me it made his character more dimensional. People's goals change and realign in real life, it marked a point in the story where he ceased being the scared child, and began to grow up. For whatever reasons (could just be me personally), but I found it stronger and made Bruce as a person more interesting in the film (especially the fact that without it, the film may as well just jump from dead parents to grown-up batman, which doesn't do the character any justice).

 

[30+Dark]

I'm guessing different writers have presented it different ways over the years.
To me, there's nothing extraordinarily tragic about Bruce's parent's deaths that should mean that he MUST become a winged avenger (plenty of kids lose their parents, and in much bloodier and shocking circumstances). Its a fact that most people get over it. The thing that DOES set him apart is his enormous wealth and access to whatever resources he wants. Its vital that he has a crystalising moment as an adult which shapes how he's going to go about fixing his grief. in the film, its where he stops seeking revenge, and realises the only way he can ever feel even slightly better is to make sure that what happened to him will never happen to anyone else, at least in his own city. its the realisation that Chill is just another guy, but it was imposed poverty via political/police/corporate corruption that killed his parents. I personally don't believe a child could have realised this. The child thought that revenge would fix his problems, which it didn't.

At least thats how I feel about the topic. To me it made his character more dimensional. People's goals change and realign in real life, it marked a point in the story where he ceased being the scared child, and began to grow up. For whatever reasons (could just be me personally), but I found it stronger and made Bruce as a person more interesting in the film (especially the fact that without it, the film may as well just jump from dead parents to grown-up batman, which doesn't do the character any justice).

Fair enough, I suppose in the context of Begins' version of events it does make more sense for it to be Bruce Wayne, the adult who makes the life changing decision.
I prefer the version of some of the comics and what I said earlier however. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Mladen]

Fair enough, I suppose in the context of Begins' version of events it does make more sense for it to be Bruce Wayne, the adult who makes the life changing decision.
I prefer the version of some of the comics and what I said earlier however. But that's just my opinion.

i can see where you're coming from.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I prefered the way this was handled in the "Mask of the Phantom" Animated movie, if you've seen that one.

You may have prefered it, and don't think I'm attacking you or anything, but this is an interesting point.

Everyone loves MOTP, even a lot of people who don't like Begins. They call it the "definitive Batman movie." And while it's great, and I love it, how do you justify the fact that Bruce was ready to completely give up being Batman over a girl? That is the farthest from definitive that you can get. After all that training, he was just going to quit and settle down with Andrea. Had she not left, there'd have been no Batman.

I'd say that's a much bigger flub than anything Begins did. Sure, Bruce started his quest later than usual, but after he did, nothing could stop him, certainly not a relationship.

 

[Orin]

I haven't said that i consider MOTP as the "definitive Batman movie", i just liked the way they handled that background we were talking about. As for giving up everything for being with a woman, i think it's debatable if he'd do that in the comics or not. IMO it was meant to show a feeling that is stronger than the hunger for revenge. But it was also shown how hard it was for him to "break" that promise, he made on the grave of his parents. Aanyway, the point is that his motivations still were the ones we know from the comics, while in BB Rachel had to make him realize how much is wrong with Gotham City and than he decided to become Batman. IMO, that isn't how he should've gotten that idea.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I haven't said that i consider MOTP as the "definitive Batman movie", i just liked the way they handled that background we were talking about. As for giving up everything for being with a woman, i think it's debatable if he'd do that in the comics or not. IMO it was meant to show a feeling that is stronger than the hunger for revenge. But it was also shown how hard it was for him to "break" that promise, he made on the grave of his parents. Aanyway, the point is that his motivations still were the ones we know from the comics, while in BB Rachel had to make him realize how much is wrong with Gotham City and than he decided to become Batman. IMO, that isn't how he should've gotten that idea.

Like I said, I wasn't saying you called it definitive, just that've heard many people say so.

I just think it really lessened Bruce's commitment. Yes, in Begins, Bruce had to mature to a point beyond selfishness. But he did that, and never turned back.

Bruce in MOTP actually regressed back to that selfish mindset. He said it himself "It just doesn't hurt that much anymore." He just seemed way too much like he had just moved on with his life. And when she breaks it off with him, and he's left alone again and decides to turn back to Batman, it just doesn't ring as strongly. There's this tinge of bitterness to it, like "I have nothing left now, I might as well just be Batman".

 

[Orin]

I guess you can put it like that. Personally, i saw it more as something, that made him even more the broken person that he is, the last, failed chance for him to be rescued from his later life, a life that he chose imidiatly after the death of his parents, when he made that childish promise, that, even as an adult, he could never break, that became an obsession. And to me that reprenents his original motivation way better than what they did in BB, which is why i liked it more.

 

[Angeloz]

Also just because he was willing to give up being Batman doesn't mean he didn't intend to help people. Actually he often does that as Bruce Wayne and his philanthropy. I also liked how he also kept a factory open in one of the comics in the poorer part of Gotham. It made money and meant there were jobs in that area. So people had an option not to choose crime. I grant you it was a comic.

Angeloz

 

[Cain]

Shouldn't it be the other way around? After all, your hair is darker when you're younger & it turn lighter when you're older.

lol he could always dye his hair t: it would've been a dramatic difference indicating time had passed based on his different look. But actually it has more to do with me always wanting to have seen the most classic Alfred look in live action film.

 

[darknight7]

Ya...I wish we got a different look for Alfred...

He looked exactly the same from when Bruce was 8yrs old - 30yrs old

lol

I think he should have had a mustache and dark hair at the scene where young Bruce meets Mr. Earl...and when Bruce cries to Alfred about it being his fault...

And than when Bruce came back finally, Alfred should have had less hair, white...and still a mustache

--dk7

By the time Bruce came back from training Alfred should've at least looked like this

t:

 

[darknight7]

Here's my take-

Cons-

Terribly edited fight scenes, can't see a damn thing.(Fair enough for the docks scene, from the criminals point of view maybe , but EVERY scene? makes me think the batsuit didn't look good in movement or that Nolan can't direct fight scenes).

Bale. Great actor, unfortunately he phones in his performance in Begins, just goes wide-eyed a lot and doesn't show any of the intensity he has in other films.His bat-voice is not good either, sounds too forced.

Rachel Dawes- well need I say more, cough(Katie) Cough, a badly written, and badly acted part.

Gotham- Too realistic, looks just like Chicago, except for the Narrows which has been nicked from Blade Runner.

Brit actors with crappy American accents-Bale's okay. Young Bruce-"In myyy gaarrdenn". ugh. Carmine Falcone-"ya got a lot of noive kid", awful.

The tumbler- quite interesting vehicle, would much rather have had a batmobile though.

Fear- Most overused word ever in a film, "To become fear you must use fear to turn those who use fear against those afraid of..er ...fear".


Cockney Alfred- a likeable character, but its Michael Caine, not Alfred!

Batsuit-Big rubber wetsuit which managed to make a buffed up Bale look fat! And the cape is just a blanket. That changes size every so often.Ears are way too small, giving him an egg-shaped head at times (TDK looks even worse in this respect).

Cheesy dialogue-Awesome reveal..."I'm Batman!", looks up.."Nice coat", whoops, how to spoil a moment or what! "I've gotta get me one of those!", "Excuse me", "can you drive stick"......

Bruce deciding to become Batman when he's a college dropout age 23, rather than the young boy who dedicates the rest of his childhood and teenage years training to become who he decided to be since the night his parents were murdered.

The boy-"batman will save us"...oh dear.

Gordon driving the tumbler to comedy effect-who's idea was that?

Fight with Ra's- "I won't kill you..but I don't have to save you..........but seeing as you've got no chance of getting off this train, which is about to plunge a 100 feet and explode into a huge fireball , due to my actions, I probably am killing you really, oh well, lets hope nobody notices," flies off.


Pro's-

training scene in Iceland, I mean the himalayas.

Batman's first appearance at the docks-must admit this scene is awesome. When the goon vanishes into the crate, and the other two look up to see Batman above them, just as he drops.Very impressive.

Batman being fear induced and set on fire by The Scarecrow-pretty damn good stuff.

Demon Batman-excellent idea.

Interrogation scene with Flass.

Joker card ending.

I do like the film, but for me it is not the best Batman film.

Cons-

I agree with the fight scenes, they were messy. But I can understand why (hopeing they will be different in TDK)

Bale. His bat-voice is not good either, sounds too forced. SO TRUE!

Need not speak of Rachel Dawes

The realism of Gotham was the least of my worries...

Bale's American accent is fine, but he still talks kind of funny...

Loved the Tumbler, but yes...it wasn't a Batmobile

Use of the word Fear wasn't a big deal to me.

Cockney Alfred- a likeable character, but its Michael Caine, not Alfred! - YUP!

The suit wasn't the greatest, DEFINATELY could have been better, but I got used to it

......THE DIALOGUE was fine for me...I could totally handle EVERY SINGLE CHEESY LINE!! EXCEPPTTTT!!!!!!! For...NICE COAT!!! You are so right...my GOD!?!???? DID IT EVER RUIN A GREAT MOMENT!...frig..all they had to do was *cut to the bum looking at Batman in awe* - *Cut to Batman taking off towards the sky*

Well...the story is cool about a boy swearing an oath...buuuut: That just wouldn't have played out very well...it's just kind of unrealistic...

The boy-"batman will save us"...oh dear. - HAHAHAHAHAHHA, so true

Ya they made Gordon look like such a goof when he was driving the Tumbler, he could have had a hard time and not been 100% in control WITHOUT looking liek a goof

Fight with Ra's- "I won't kill you..but I don't have to save you..........but seeing as you've got no chance of getting off this train, which is about to plunge a 100 feet and explode into a huge fireball , due to my actions, I probably am killing you really, oh well, lets hope nobody notices," flies off. - I have to disagree with that - don't forget, Ra's is Batman's Master. He had a good 3 seconds to make a move. For a master ninja, that is enough time....(and I still believe he made that move)


Pro's-

Training was fun, but too quick...

First appearance was AMAZING!

Demon Batman-excellent idea. - Definately cool

The interogation scene was too forced (it shouldn't have been so stupid looking) ya he is supposed to be scary...but, it just was...meh for me. He didnt ACTUALLY seem angry...it was like he was just pretending.

Joker card ending. - Who doesn't love that?

I also like Batman Begins, and as for characters...it may have stuck to the story the best and all that junk...

But overall, it could have been MUCH better IMO

--dk7

 

[Two-Face]

Bale's wasn't good? and How is that true?