The Dark Knight Things The Dark Knight got Right/Wrong

[ronny]

even when he's flipping the coin about to blow Gordon's son's head off explaining about chance, he seems far too composed, not edgy at all.

Ah, I see. Well, I'm glad you picked up on it. Because that "composure" is not composure at all. No, that is the Two-Face side of his personality.
Let me explain:

Harvey Dent -
"SAY IT!"
"RACHEL!"
"WE TRIED TO BE DECENT MEN IN AN INDECENT TIME!"

Two-Face -
"That's funny, I don't know what's going to happen to you either."
"We have a winner" (As he callously snatches Gordon's son)
"Live to fight another day Officer"

Dent is the angry, hurt man trying to break free. He's completely lost and lashing out. Two-Face meanwhile is a serene, sedated, zombielike killer. He has no will save for what the coin decides.
The Joker is an Agent of Chaos. Two-Face is a Zombie of Chance. Just notice that glazed look in his eyes.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

If that's the case, he didn't make it obvious enough.

 

[drunkhomer]

dang, i feel like an outcast....
i actually like bale's voice and i also thought his growl was better then BB

 

[OctaviusINC]

The Joker is an Agent of Chaos. Two-Face is a Zombie of Chance.

Well put, sir

 

[ronny]

If that's the case, he didn't make it obvious enough.

Really? You didn't see the look in Eckhart's eyes? He was staring ahead, but he saw nothing. He was totally dependant on the coin toss.
You really didn't see that vacant expression on his face?
No, it wasn't poor acting. It was the total opposite. Both sides of the man were frighteningly different.

 

[CaptainClown]

I dunno Harvey seemed a little nut ball from the beginning and in the beginning he seemed to be bottling up his anger

 

[Twin723]

wrong - Not enough Scarecrow

Yeah..

 

[dodgers2213]

Ah, I see. Well, I'm glad you picked up on it. Because that "composure" is not composure at all. No, that is the Two-Face side of his personality.
Let me explain:

Harvey Dent -
"SAY IT!"
"RACHEL!"
"WE TRIED TO BE DECENT MEN IN AN INDECENT TIME!"

Two-Face -
"That's funny, I don't know what's going to happen to you either."
"We have a winner" (As he callously snatches Gordon's son)
"Live to fight another day Officer"

Dent is the angry, hurt man trying to break free. He's completely lost and lashing out. Two-Face meanwhile is a serene, sedated, zombielike killer. He has no will save for what the coin decides.
The Joker is an Agent of Chaos. Two-Face is a Zombie of Chance. Just notice that glazed look in his eyes.

But there is nothing to suggest that Harvey would act out in dual personalities in the way you have described

this leads to something they got wrong about Harvey Dent....

Wrong: Harvey didn't have a multiple personality disorder

Including the multiple personality disorder would have made Harvey Dent a deeper character (although i loved Aaron Eckart's performance, the writing for the character was bad)
The guy gets his face blown to hell and it unleashed the innner fury within him. Batman TAS got this right, why couldn't the film?

 

[CaptainClown]

Ya actually Two-face in this didn't really have a duel personality he seemed like one person that was drawn between two ways of thinking. It was not like Harvey and Two-face were two separate characters in which it worked rather well. Unless everybody wants the old school two people two-face.

 

[OctaviusINC]

Ya actually Two-face in this didn't really have a duel personality he seemed like one person that was drawn between two ways of thinking. It was not like Harvey and Two-face were two separate characters in which it worked rather well. Unless everybody wants the old school two people two-face.

Yeah, you're right, there was no "Big Bad Harv". TAS route would've been cool to see play out, but TDK had A LOT to explain, so I believe they did a good job.

 

[CaptainClown]

Yeah, you're right, there was no "Big Bad Harv". TAS route would've been cool to see play out, but TDK had A LOT to explain, so I believe they did a good job.

Ya I think it worked out perfectly. It made Two-face more tragic then blaming this evil version of him. It was like he was doing it all out of grief and it was ultimately harvey who pulled the trigger he just decided with his coin. If it was just a bad part of Harvey then its easier to hate him. If it is Harvey who is going down a dark path then it is harder to hate him since you know what he went through.

 

[dodgers2213]

Ya actually Two-face in this didn't really have a duel personality he seemed like one person that was drawn between two ways of thinking. It was not like Harvey and Two-face were two separate characters in which it worked rather well. Unless everybody wants the old school two people two-face.

And I supposed he develops this "two" ways of thinking from the Joker talking to him?

This is the reason why this character is poorly written and developed. Sure Dent got his face blown off, but the entire movie had shown us how GOOD he was. Dent took risks knowing the consequences..so he just turns evil after a little chat with the Joker? he goes around killing people...c'mon now, its a cop out

It wouldn't have been hard to write in his Dual personalities and give Dent some real depth

 

[CaptainClown]

And I supposed he develops this "two" ways of thinking from the Joker talking to him?

This is the reason why this character is poorly written and developed. Sure Dent got his face blown off, but the entire movie had shown us how GOOD he was. Dent took risks knowing the consequences..so he just turns evil after a little chat with the Joker? he goes around killing people...c'mon now, its a cop out

It wouldn't have been hard to write in his Dual personalities and give Dent some real depth

Well he doesn't have two ways in thinking. He has only one way of thinking throughout but uses the coin as a bastardized homage to the lose of Rachel. Like what happened to him was decided by almost a flip of the coin and like his two headed coin it was a fixed outcome (Joker lying)

Harvey was not evil in the end though, he was killing the cops who were corrupt. He believed he was doing in a way good, by weeding out the cops and crime by himself. Dual personalities is a cope out also as in you can blame the evil side for all his actions where as if its one person he is fully in control of his actions however through a series of events it has changed how he should approach the same problem.

 

[OctaviusINC]

And I supposed he develops this "two" ways of thinking from the Joker talking to him?

This is the reason why this character is poorly written and developed. Sure Dent got his face blown off, but the entire movie had shown us how GOOD he was. Dent took risks knowing the consequences..so he just turns evil after a little chat with the Joker? he goes around killing people...c'mon now, its a cop out

It wouldn't have been hard to write in his Dual personalities and give Dent some real depth

Dent lost his girl and half his face. It was too much. He cracked.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Take Alan Moore's "Killing Joke" that everyone praises.

Joker lost his wife and suffered a deformity. It was too much. He cracked.

What I'm saying is I don't find his character underdeveloped or poorly written. Joker gets similar treatment in comic form and it's brilliant, right? I thought that Dent's story arc in TDK was...fair.

But I respect your opinion.

 

[markstrange]

I swear im the only person that digs bale's batvoice.

At some points it may have been over the top... I stress the "May have," because I loved that they made Bruce change his voice when hes Batman!

 

[CaptainClown]

At some points it may have been over the top... I stress the "May have," because I loved that they made Bruce change his voice when hes Batman!

I read that that was the outcome of the suit and he just went with it.

 

[dodgers2213]

Well he doesn't have two ways in thinking. He has only one way of thinking throughout but uses the coin as a bastardized homage to the lose of Rachel. Like what happened to him was decided by almost a flip of the coin and like his two headed coin it was a fixed outcome (Joker lying)

Harvey was not evil in the end though, he was killing the cops who were corrupt. He believed he was doing in a way good, by weeding out the cops and crime by himself. Dual personalities is a cope out also as in you can blame the evil side for all his actions where as if its one person he is fully in control of his actions however through a series of events it has changed how he should approach the same problem.

First thing, Harvey is pictured as this perfect individual. Everything about him is spot on, seeking justic etc Then, for no real reason, he begins killing people? The guy believed in the system, believed in Batman...Believed in true justice. So, when the plot needed him to go around killing people it just happens. its just not believable and weak, especially when considering there is easily a better way to portray the character.

The Dual Personalities gives actual and realistic depth. Shows the struggles Harvey has to go through to keep his job (how would voters think if they elected an official with dual personalities?)
It shows the struggles harvey has within himself to conceal his "other half" and when he splits (face damaged) the concealed terror is unleashed

So, no its no way a cop out in the same breath as "lets have harvey go around blasting people, even though the whole movie suggested him as being a white knight" even when everything we seen suggests otherwise

 

[dodgers2213]

Dent lost his girl and half his face. It was too much. He cracked.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Take Alan Moore's "Killing Joke" that everyone praises.

Joker lost his wife and suffered a deformity. It was too much. He cracked.

What I'm saying is I don't find his character underdeveloped or poorly written. Joker gets similar treatment in comic form and it's brilliant, right? I thought that Dent's story arc in TDK was...fair.

But I respect your opinion.

ok, take the killing joke...that story is about the joker, not Two-Face. I don't care if there's a relation to the Joker in "the Killing joke" to Two-Face in the film, because they're different characters.

Why would Dent "just crack" when mentions in the film that he knows the possible ramifications for threatening the mob?
There was a better way, but instead of that we're given a weak charactr instead

 

[CaptainClown]

First thing, Harvey is pictured as this perfect individual. Everything about him is spot on, seeking justic etc Then, for no real reason, he begins killing people? The guy believed in the system, believed in Batman...Believed in true justice. So, when the plot needed him to go around killing people it just happens. its just not believable and weak, especially when considering there is easily a better way to portray the character.

The Dual Personalities gives actual and realistic depth. Shows the struggles Harvey has to go through to keep his job (how would voters think if they elected an official with dual personalities?)
It shows the struggles harvey has within himself to conceal his "other half" and when he splits (face damaged) the concealed terror is unleashed

So, no its no way a cop out in the same breath as "lets have harvey go around blasting people, even though the whole movie suggested him as being a white knight" even when everything we seen suggests otherwise

Harvey isn't really portrayed as a lets do everything by the books kind of guy. That was shown when he disarms the witness when he had a gun pulled on him. He just shows that he is on a crusade to bring justice to the city. He was shown doing what it takes to achieve that.Harvey was a white knight but like knights they sometimes get strayed from their path.

Harvey did believe in the system, but that was all lost when it was his system that got his fiance killed. It was that system that allowed crooked cops to kidnap him and hold him hostage. He also didn't kill just anybody he killed "crooked" cops. He killed his captors and people responsible.
Reason why I feel an evil personality is a cope out is because then Harvey is no longer responsible for his actions. When Batman reaches out to Harvey, he reaches to Harvey not Two-face. While the split personality is cool in the comics, in the movie it worked perfectly. Also a person running for DA would not really get by with having mental issues.

 

[CaptainClown]

ok, take the killing joke...that story is about the joker, not Two-Face. I don't care if there's a relation to the Joker in "the Killing joke" to Two-Face in the film, because they're different characters.

Why would Dent "just crack" when mentions in the film that he knows the possible ramifications for threatening the mob?
There was a better way, but instead of that we're given a weak charactr instead

Replace Gordon with Harvey and you got the same story. Joker tortured Harvey to have him crack, unlike the killing Joke Harvey sucumbed to madness.

 

[dodgers2213]

Harvey isn't really portrayed as a lets do everything by the books kind of guy. That was shown when he disarms the witness when he had a gun pulled on him. He just shows that he is on a crusade to bring justice to the city. He was shown doing what it takes to achieve that.Harvey was a white knight but like knights they sometimes get strayed from their path.

Harvey did believe in the system, but that was all lost when it was his system that got his fiance killed. It was that system that allowed crooked cops to kidnap him and hold him hostage. He also didn't kill just anybody he killed "crooked" cops. He killed his captors and people responsible.
Reason why I feel an evil personality is a cope out is because then Harvey is no longer responsible for his actions. When Batman reaches out to Harvey, he reaches to Harvey not Two-face. While the split personality is cool in the comics, in the movie it worked perfectly. Also a person running for DA would not really get by with having mental issues.

1. The guy pulled a gun on him...how else is he supposed to react? And no, I doubt that was supposed to have any siginifance on Harvey eventually becoming Two-Face.
Btw, that was one of them pointless and weird scenes in the movie

2. How did the system get his fiancee killed? If it was the system, she'd have been taken to trial for a crime......


4. " Also a person running for DA would not really get by with having mental issues"

Which is why I said it deepens the character. It forces Harvey to hide that from the public. This brings a new dynamic to Harvey Dent that otherwise doesn't exist

In no way is having a mental problem a "cop out" in the same breath as "this is the scene where Harvey starts pulling a gun on a guy for supposely killing Gordon despite the fact that Gordon wasn't an impact on Harvey's Life"

 

[dodgers2213]

Replace Gordon with Harvey and you got the same story. Joker tortured Harvey to have him crack, unlike the killing Joke Harvey sucumbed to madness.

Unlike the "Killing Joke", The Joker was never the "White Knight" of Gotham.
And this discussion is completely irrelevent. Even if there is a parallell like you seem to imply, you're actually showing why this isn't Two-Face

 

[Coleman Reese]

Right: Joker, Dent, Escalation. Pretty much everything else.

Wrong: The whole ferry sequence.

 

[That-Guy]

Right: Damn near everything.

Wrong: If Two-Face is really dead (I don't care what the script says... I'm still holding out that he survived).

Regarding the "perma-white" debate... not only is the bleached skin thing somewhat unrealistic, it also would have created a need for an origin, and that's not how Nolan wanted to introduce the Joker. A guy with weird scars that make his face look like a permanent smile doesn't necessarily need an explanation. Clearly something awful happened to him and the things that he does are the possible effect. A guy running around with chalk white skin and no explanation as to how it happened will confuse people because something like that requires some type of explanation. You could argue that the comics never gave him a "definitive" origin, but they gave him one that is generally accepted and I think in recent years actually was confirmed.

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

dang, i feel like an outcast....
i actually like bale's voice and i also thought his growl was better then BB

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