TIH Sequel changes?

[dcHulk]

We see him kill a scientist and a soldier in the opening credits.

We don't know that for sure, especially for the scientist. After all, Betty "looked" dead, but wasn't.

 

[Sarg92]

Can ya give me a clue of where to look?

Look around the 54-55 minute mark. When the helicopter first hits the ground it tumbles over and then when it is momentarily back in its correct position you see a chair being forced out with brightly coloured smoke pushing it up like a rocket taking off. You can spot it in motion but if you pause and play then it is much more clear but it is there.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

We don't know that for sure, especially for the scientist. After all, Betty "looked" dead, but wasn't.

Ross saw it all, the scientist died, and we did see him kill the soldier.

 

[WeaponXProject]

Anger doesn’t equal killing necessarily.



Again, moster doesn’t equal killer necessarily.



And luckily you’re not Hulk or the Army would have valid reasons to relentlessly chase you. And you wouldn’t be a heroic monster as Hulk is.


It is the potential danger people around him are in, not the certain danger that he could kill him on purpose as a reaction.

Apparently it is possible. Any previous incarnation has been able to do it.

It makes perfect sense as he has always claimed that “Hulk only wants to be left alone.” Hulk is angry at them but his main goal is not to fight but to be left alone.

And it’s out of character all the same.

Which is exactly my point in this thread.

Okay we are obviously at a disagreement here and I think you are distorting the words and not looking at what had happened in the film or in the comics. You say Anger doesn't lead to killing, technically yes. But anger in the sense of rage and slicing at someone with a two pieces of metal and taking down a helicoptor (though in self-defense) clearly leads to death or attempting to murder.

Luckily I'm not the Hulk? I know he wants to be left alone but in self-defense you may have to fight to get away and he did. Nothing wrong with that.

"Not to fight but be left alone". We all know that. But when your being hunted down by a helicoptor and military with heavy weapons you might have to fight your way out to get away. Like in the last two movies.

In other "campier" incarnations perhaps the Hulk doesn't kill or attempt to in defense but people are in danger around him and his uncontrollable rage can also inflict danger on those who are trying to inflict pain on him.

Out of character, its an adaption. Not every character can be adapted perfectly to the screen. Many haven't and his Dr. Jeykl/Mr. Hyde conflict with Hulk at the beginning stages like portrayed in the last two movies were done so, imo, the correct way to start the series.

Atleast we agree on the angle for the sequel. I would be very interested in seeing him learning to control his anger/rage in Hulk form.

I don't want to argue with how the character should be adapted into film. I would rather it be intense and violent than have him run from every battle and not face enemies that continually chase him. That makes for better cinema. The tone and struggle of the character is still there. I don't know why that is an issue. Man struggling with inner-beast and those who want that beast.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I just want the Hulk to be the main character in a Hulk movie/TV show for a change. I don't mind Spider-Man being about Peter Parker because that is the essence of the character....but the Hulk is not all about Banner. The Hulk as a character is much more interesting to me.

They could start by letting the poor guy talk like he is supposed to. (more than 3 words per movie would be nice) Very few mute characters are the main characters in a movie. (Even King Kong isn't the main focus) Peter Jackson showed everyone what it takes to make the audience accept a CGI character as a legitimate member of the cast (Gollum) but apparently no one watched those movies. (I recommend them to those at Marvel thinking about future Hulk projects....they are called "Lord of the Rings")

Maybe CGI is just too expensive to make a real Hulk movie.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

No, I heard they ran out of time to get the cgi perfect like in the scene were he is holding betty in his arms, and while he was in the cave with betty. So maybe next time they'll take the time to finish every thing.

 

[dcHulk]

Look around the 54-55 minute mark. When the helicopter first hits the ground it tumbles over and then when it is momentarily back in its correct position you see a chair being forced out with brightly coloured smoke pushing it up like a rocket taking off. You can spot it in motion but if you pause and play then it is much more clear but it is there.

Sorry, I can't find it. I sure want to believe this for the sake of the forever-long argument.

 

[Nivek]

The Apache did have a cockpit eject. It's easy to see.

 

[Judson Caspian]

Maybe CGI is just too expensive to make a real Hulk movie.

That depends on the company who makes it. For ILM or Framestore it wouldn't be a problem. It's also the only way to make the Hulk look believable. Having a body builder covered in a lot of latex wouldn't work too well.

 

[WeaponXProject]

The Apache did have a cockpit eject. It's easy to see.

It may have and I'm not disagreeing with anyone but how does that change the fact that Hulk, in self-defense, tried to blow up the Apache which would have killed the guy. I don't think he perfectly calculated the fact that the guy would eject from the helicoptor.

I'm not saying Nivek has a problem with this but how can some people deny or have such a problem with the Hulk killing in defense. It seems like they are trying to kill him or harm him from the Hulk's point of view. In the end he didn't let the rage take over, he let Abomination live. He just left. And it was the "oh there's a man inside the beast" moment. I think it's important to show that he is a monster in one way and man in another.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Is he man or monster or...is he both?

 

[dcHulk]

Is he man or monster or...is he both?

perfect stan lee setup. nice throw back to issue #1.

 

[WeaponXProject]

Is he man or monster or...is he both?

Exactly which is why I don't think it is a problem to see him be as agressive as he was in TIH just because we needed to see the fury of how much of a monster he can be. For the next movie we could see him learn to control it in a way like El Payaso said.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Sure, make him a little more "Mr. Hyde" and a little less "Frankenstein's Monster"

 

[WeaponXProject]

I've always like the Jekyll/Hyde and werewolf approach more than the Frankenstein approach. Like two seperate people fighting inside of him and he needs to either stop the Hulk or learn to co-exist.

 

[El Payaso]

I think you might want to think that over again EP. The Hulk has killed, foes, before. And the Hulk has also been angered to the point to where HE thought he had killed his foe. So I think we are trying to romanticize our hero to much. We think he would never kill and we are right and wrong. He wont murder someone in cold blood or beat someone to death who only needs to be knocked out. But when push comes to shove the Hulk has and will kill to A) Prove he's the Strongest One there is. B) Portect Betty, Jarella, Rick, Cracker Jack, his friends C) save his own life.

Here we go round round round. Run Run around round round.....

A) So has Hulk ever killed just to "prove he's the Strongest One there is”? Is he that pretentious?

B) Self-defense? I already said this: It wasn’t self-defense since he was immune to the bullets the helicopter was firing. That is, Hulk hadn’t his life at stake.

C) I better quote myself once again (I think this is what is keeping us going round and round): “Hulk was already defending Betty when he covered her with his body. Killing the soldiers was unnecessary to keep Betty alive.

If anything Hulk exposed her to a bigger danger by having her in the middle of the helicopter’s crash and the subsequent fireball.”

El Payaso, you say Hulk isn't a killer because Talbott didn't die yet you say TIH is a killer, was it actually ever stated in TIH that anyone died?

When a helicopter hits the ground in such a way it explodes into a fireball, you hardly need any death certificate.

Jamon, Abomb may not of been mindless but neither could he be negotiated with, he would not have stopped, exactly like the dogs.

What I found ironic is that Abomination, being a non human killing monster, was the only one who was justifiable to be killed. He’s stronger than Hulk, so Hulk is not abusing of his powers (as he did when kicking Blonsky). Nevertheless this is the only one being that was intentionally stopped in time (by Betty) from being killed. Like if Leterrier was telling us “it’s important for the Hulk not to be a killing monster, no matter who the victim is.”

I was watching sm2 and I saw how spidey stopped the train in that movie, I wondered how would the hulk stop something like maybe a coal train from going into a dead end.
I'd have him run face to face with the train and have a head on collision with it and act as a break on the front of the train. It would be a great way to show exactly how strong the hulk is, a great way of showing heroism and his feats of strengh.
But of course we all know hulk would be blamed for it and later accused of being a murderer, even though no one died.

If no one dies he can’t be accused of murder. At least not by El Payaso.

 

[El Payaso]

El Payaso, you bring up the example of Hulk throwing that metal sheet at the helicopter, causing it to explode and to be destroyed. I don't think that Hulk threw that metal sheet at the helicopter wanting to kill the pilot, it never seemed he had the intention to kill. It seemed that Hulk just wanted the helicopter to stop firing and the only way he could do that is if he threw the metal sheet towards it. It never seemed that Hulk aimed to have the sheet hit the blades, he just threw the sheet without real aim, just threw it towards the helicopter as he knew that it would cause the helicopter to stop firing by either the sheet hitting the helicopter or the helicopter dodging the sheet and flying off course.

You can’t say he threw the piece of metal to stop the helicopter from shooting and then say he threw it without real aim. For certain we can say he wanted to hit the helicopter; he didn’t just throw the sheet randomly. My problem is that he didn’t care about the life of the people inside. In Ang’s Hulk he threw the missile not to the pilot but to the tail of the helicopter; quite different.

And Hulk doesn't even kill the pilot! He ejects outta the helicopter when it is tumbling across the ground! Re watch the scene and you see a seat being ejected out.

Look around the 54-55 minute mark. When the helicopter first hits the ground it tumbles over and then when it is momentarily back in its correct position you see a chair being forced out with brightly coloured smoke pushing it up like a rocket taking off. You can spot it in motion but if you pause and play then it is much more clear but it is there.

Now THIS is interesting.

Sadly I don’t have the dvd right now so I can’t check it immediately. But if it’s true I’ll give you that point not without telling Leterrier to be more clear about that point; he can’t confide such an important point to a single frame which you have to check frame-by-frame to see it. That said, I remember when bat-fans wanted to believe Ra’s al Ghul survived the train crash in Batman Begins and some of them were seeing Ra’s amongst the falling debris.

Anyways, he still kicked Blonsky to what would have been his death (hadn’t he got the super soldier serum).

It may have and I'm not disagreeing with anyone but how does that change the fact that Hulk, in self-defense, tried to blow up the Apache which would have killed the guy. I don't think he perfectly calculated the fact that the guy would eject from the helicoptor.

I'm not saying Nivek has a problem with this but how can some people deny or have such a problem with the Hulk killing in defense. It seems like they are trying to kill him and in the end he figured that out and didn't brutalize Abomination.

It was clear at this point of the movie (let alone after years of being chased by the miltary) that helicopters and its missiles can not kill the Hulk and he knows it. That goes the self defense theory.

 

[jokrsmile]

I looked at the helicopter crash again and I don't see anyone being ejected out of the craft. I see the canopy being blowing off during the crash, but I see nothing that looks like a pilot ejecting. And if the director wanted to show someone ejecting out of the copter I think he would have shown it very clearly. I love the Hulk comics and the movies, but to think the HULK can go on rampages through the years without someone dying is not realistic. Yes, Marvel can continue to write the comics that way, but up on the big screen I don't see it playing out that way. It just isn't realistic.

 

[El Payaso]

I looked at the helicopter crash again and I don't see anyone being ejected out of the craft. I see the canopy being blowing off during the crash, but I see nothing that looks like a pilot ejecting. And if the director wanted to show someone ejecting out of the copter I think he would have shown it very clearly.

My point exactly.

I love the Hulk comics and the movies, but to think the HULK can go on rampages through the years without someone dying is not realistic. Yes, Marvel can continue to write the comics that way, but up on the big screen I don't see it playing out that way. It just isn't realistic.

I actually agree.

One thing I never found realistic about the TV series, for example, was that no one ever died as a consequence of Hulk's actions. Accidentally of course of course; not because Hulk threw a heavy object directly at you with enough strenght.

In the second pilot Hulk, Hulk breaks a pillar and the roof falls on a guy, who ends up seriously wounded in a hospital. I accept that; Hulk couldn't figure out that the roof was going to fall over the guy, nevertheless it did because he broke that pillar. But after that, Dr. Banner was seriously worried about the condition of that person (as he always was about Hulk harming someone accidentally or not). In another episode, the Hulk is supposed to have killed a young man (accidentally or not, it's not known) and Dr. Banner decides to take his own life, "This is not a suicide," he says, "it's an execution."

Now before you all come telling me how the TV series is not the comics or the movie (and in fact, tried to keep a distance from the comics), the idea of the Hulk killing someone dircetly HAS to be an issue for Banner (and of course the Army who's in charge of the people's protection).

The Jekyll & Hyde thing that goes on with the Hulk is the double personality; the scientist who cannot get rid of his alter ego. But in Jekyll & Hyde, Mr. Hyde is the exact opposite of the scientist, whereas Hulk shares important things with Banner: they have a heroic side, they love the same woman and they don't kill.

 

[jokrsmile]

One other issue I have that I'd like to see approached in the movies is in the area of HULK's intelligence. As long as the Hulk remains just a brute, I don't see how the HULK isn't a danger to ordinary people. Not that he can't be reasoned with, but I believe that in his anger the HULK would continue to hurt and kill people. I don't believe that in either movie the HULK knows his own strength. The HULK probably doesn't want to kill, and maybe the HULK doesn't even know he's killed people in his bid to be left alone. If he gains intelligence, he would gain an understanding of his own strength and how to temper it so bystanders wouldn't be in danger. All that being said, I believe Ross is to blame for any deaths attributed to the HULK in the movies. He knows how dangerous the HULK is, and still continues to piss him off.

 

[dcHulk]

One thing I never found realistic about the TV series, for example, was that no one ever died as a consequence of Hulk's actions. Accidentally of course of course; not because Hulk threw a heavy object directly at you with enough strenght.

In the second pilot Hulk, Hulk breaks a pillar and the roof falls on a guy, who ends up seriously wounded in a hospital. I accept that; Hulk couldn't figure out that the roof was going to fall over the guy, nevertheless it did because he broke that pillar. But after that, Dr. Banner was seriously worried about the condition of that person (as he always was about Hulk harming someone accidentally or not). In another episode, the Hulk is supposed to have killed a young man (accidentally or not, it's not known) and Dr. Banner decides to take his own life, "This is not a suicide," he says, "it's an execution."

If I remember correctly, it was found out by Jack McGee that the Hulk didn't kill that kid. I believe the episode was "The Psychic".

 

[El Payaso]

One other issue I have that I'd like to see approached in the movies is in the area of HULK's intelligence. As long as the Hulk remains just a brute, I don't see how the HULK isn't a danger to ordinary people. Not that he can't be reasoned with, but I believe that in his anger the HULK would continue to hurt and kill people. I don't believe that in either movie the HULK knows his own strength. The HULK probably doesn't want to kill, and maybe the HULK doesn't even know he's killed people in his bid to be left alone. If he gains intelligence, he would gain an understanding of his own strength and how to temper it so bystanders wouldn't be in danger. All that being said, I believe Ross is to blame for any deaths attributed to the HULK in the movies. He knows how dangerous the HULK is, and still continues to piss him off.

Thing is that Hulk's been a hero in spite of being a brute and that's the quality that redeems him and separates from most monsters who're nothing but mindless brutes. In Ang Lee's movies he was attacked by a plane and then he could think of saving the very man's life and how to do it. Afterwards, when the same pilot tried to kill him by taking him into the stratosphere one cannot but feel for the Hulk, who has become a truly misunderstood monster who's not actually a monster. One can feel - even if he doesn't word it - that he wants to be left alone and that there's no reason to attack him so violently. If you remove that from him, then that aspect is gone; he is a monster, behaves like one and therefore must be stopped no matter if his name iss the title of the movie.

Ross can know how dangerous Hulk is, but if he is actually able to kill, then Ross has no alternative but to capture him. It's beyond his decision; it is his duty.

If I remember correctly, it was found out by Jack McGee that the Hulk didn't kill that kid. I believe the episode was "The Psychic".

Exactly. And of course the Hulk didn't kill the kid (as I said, he hasn't killed human beings in any preious incarnations). Thing is Banner was absolutely worried about what his alter ego could do.

 

[Cracker Jack]

A) So has Hulk ever killed just to "prove he's the Strongest One there is”? Is he that pretentious?

Without going back to my collection I can't say for sure. But whne the Hulk says "Hulk Smash" I don't think he means he wants to arm wrestle.

B) Self-defense? I already said this: It wasn’t self-defense since he was immune to the bullets the helicopter was firing. That is, Hulk hadn’t his life at stake.

A mosquitoe can't really hurt me but I swat them away and sometimes squish them when they bug me.

C) I better quote myself once again (I think this is what is keeping us going round and round): “Hulk was already defending Betty when he covered her with his body. Killing the soldiers was unnecessary to keep Betty alive.

If anything Hulk exposed her to a bigger danger by having her in the middle of the helicopter’s crash and the subsequent fireball.”

The mader the Hulk get's I guess. Betty was in danger, that's what set off Banner in the first place. The Hulk was doing what the Hulk thought was right.


I found this interesting, while looking to see if the Hulk has ever killed a foe to prove he's the Stongest one there is" I remembered TIH 205, Jarella's death. In that issue Jarella is killed by a falling building while trying to save a kid. The reason that building was falling was because the Hulk was fighting the Crypto-Man. No we all know the Hulk didn't out-right kill Jarella. She was collateral dammage. Also the Hulk didn't know that when he destroyed the Crypto-Man that he was going to kill the guy that controled him but it happened.

 

[El Payaso]

Without going back to my collection I can't say for sure. But whne the Hulk says "Hulk Smash" I don't think he means he wants to arm wrestle.

But does he actually mean to kill? Does he - as you said - actually kill just to prove the point that he's the greatest (even if he doesn't actually say it)?

A mosquitoe can't really hurt me but I swat them away and sometimes squish them when they bug me.

Well, for starters you've just dismissed your own point of that being "self-defense." Killing a mosquito does not qualify.

That said, if that mosquito is human, then you're a killer. Which is my point.

The mader the Hulk get's I guess. Betty was in danger, that's what set off Banner in the first place. The Hulk was doing what the Hulk thought was right.

That's right; he was protecting her.

After that he decided that was not enough and threw a huge piece of metal that killed people inside of a helicopter.

I found this interesting, while looking to see if the Hulk has ever killed a foe to prove he's the Stongest one there is" I remembered TIH 205, Jarella's death. In that issue Jarella is killed by a falling building while trying to save a kid. The reason that building was falling was because the Hulk was fighting the Crypto-Man. No we all know the Hulk didn't out-right kill Jarella. She was collateral dammage.

I see.

So basically it's a completely different case.

Also the Hulk didn't know that when he destroyed the Crypto-Man that he was going to kill the guy that controled him but it happened.

Again a different case.

Hulk knows that puny humans are the ones inside of those firing machines.

 

[Cracker Jack]

My point is that it has happened. As a result of his actions, people have died. Not intentionally but it has happened. Just like in TIH. it was not intentional, but like swating a mosquitoe. To make it go away. I'll give you the helicopter one but that to wasn't intertional. It's not like the Hulk walked up to the guy and squeezed the life out of him.