Time to Discuss Race: The White Washing of The Shredder

[Marvin]

It depends.

If you're a fan of something and waited much of your life to see it finally adapted you're going to have standards. You don't want to see Batman played by a midget wearing a tutu.

Why? Because the details that made you a hardcore fan have been disregarded pointlessly. I think it's reasonable to be critical in such cases.

There has never been a popular and successful batman that was a little person and wore a tutu. I'd argue that the most popular and successful incarnation of this brand was that cartoon coming out of the 80's and those movies going into the 90's.

Fans can pick and choose their favorite form of these characters, often times this means the comic books. But the filmmakers that expect a big return on their investment really only owe it to themselves to honor what made the brand worth investing in from their stand point(especially in the same medium). To which end I'd say Shredder can be a few different things tonally. As long as it engages those kids that made it popular and successful.

Because, looks matter. Lets assume for a second there would be for example a superman movie where the lead actor happens to be blonde. Unacceptable because Superman has a distinct look. Black hair, blue eyes, white. I would accept a blonde or ginger superman as much as I would a black superman, namely I wouldn't. The actor could be the best thespian in the world if he doesn't fit look wise it doesn't matter, he's not suited for that role.

Batman in the comics has always had jet black hair and most often times blue eyes. Christian bale had neither. To lesser degree, I'd say the same about they way they conveyed cap's 'eff you Aryan nation' hair colour(but I'm not familiar with white people's hair distinctions) but I don't think he was blonde enough. Either way, such things seemingly don't matter to people.

Just saying.

Replacing white characters is less of a big deal because they're a dime a dozen.

Minority characters are relatively rare so replacing them with a white actor is like killing an animal on the endangered species list.

"The battle for equality is not without it's share of hypocrisy."

 

[LaughingMage]

OR he could be a reincarnated Oroku Saki. We don't know....lets wait and see before throwing a fit

Oh boy, and here I thought the idea of a Krang body double was the worst idea. That one's even worse.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

But that's exactly the problem, isn't it? Can a caucasian play an asian character? Look wise, no he can't convincingly but I'd go even further and propose, that he can't because of cultural specifics as well. There is a huge difference between Japanese culture and American culture.

You'd be surprised what they can do with CGI or makeup

 

[Kal-El.9859]

Oh boy, and here I thought the idea of a Krang body double was the worst idea. That one's even worse.

Ummm....in the current comics they have all been reincarnated. You should read it, it's good

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

There has never been a popular and successful batman that was a little person and wore a tutu. I'd argue that the most popular and successful incarnation of this brand was that cartoon coming out of the 80's and those movies going into the 90's.

Fans can pick and choose their favorite form of these characters, often times this means the comic books. But the filmmakers that expect a big return on their investment really only owe it to themselves to honor what made the brand worth investing in from their stand point(especially in the same medium). To which end I'd say Shredder can be a few different things tonally. As long as it engages those kids that made it popular and successful.

Yeah the source material doesn't have a midget in a tutu but that's the point. Hollywood often makes changes to the source material with little regard for what made the source material popular.

and if you're not going to replicate what made the series popular then you might as well not adapt it for film and create something completely new.

"The battle for equality is not without it's share of hypocrisy."

What is hypocritical about replacing white characters since white characters are common place and keeping minority characters the same since they are rare by comparison?

 

[LaughingMage]

Batman in the comics has always had jet black hair and most often times blue eyes. Christian bale had neither. To lesser degree, I'd say the same about they way they conveyed cap's 'eff you Aryan nation' hair colour(but I'm not familiar with white people's hair distinctions) but I don't think he was blonde enough. Either way, such things seemingly don't matter to people.

Just saying.

Maybe, but I don't consider Bale that good a Batman to begin with.

And that's a pitty too, would have loved to see a blonde cap but then again didn't watch the Cap movies anyhow (the actor playing cap would still fall into the "blonde" spectrum, though more in the area of dark blonde). The char is too much "Murrica" for my taste.

As for things not mattering, I'd say try suggesting a blonde or ginger Superman and you will see **** flying... heck, the Superherohype forum had a discussion, if it is proper that Superman should be played by a Brit instead of a "true American".

 

[OutOfBoose]

1) You dismiss The Shredder as not being a major comic book character even though The Shredder is the most iconic TMNT supervillain, has been featured in every media incarnation of the franchise, and is the primary antagonist of three of the four original films (TMNT, Secret of the Ooze, III, TMNT 2007) as well as the reboot. The Shredder is a pop culture icon, just as the Ninja Turtles are.

I never said he isn't iconic. What I meant is that his appearance (hence his armor) dominates everything else in the character.

2) You devalue the importance of the character's ethnicity because he is armor clad. Yet, we know that the character is named Oroku Saki and is a feared leader of an ancient Japanese clan of assassins. How can The Shredder be his armor when his armor is an extension of his heritage as a Japanese ninja?

It's important only if you want it to stay as close as possible to the comic book canon.

 

[LaughingMage]

You'd be surprised what they can do with CGI or makeup

And it looks so convincing too, just like in Cloud Atlas. Yay for digital Blackface.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

And it looks so convincing too, just like in Cloud Atlas. Yay for digital Blackface.

I'm just saying that we have no idea if there will even be Oroku Saki in this, a mention of him or what...this guy is more than likely like I said one of two things: The NEW Shredder or a reincarnated Shredder

 

[LaughingMage]

Ummm....in the current comics they have all been reincarnated. You should read it, it's good

With that premise? I think I'll pass, thank you.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

I've done been drug down deeper into this crap than I had wanted. I think this is ridiculous. I'm outta this thread. Wait and see before you bash

 

[Kal-El.9859]

With that premise? I think I'll pass, thank you.

You're passing up on a excellent comic....one of the best

 

[LaughingMage]

I'm just saying that we have no idea if there will even be Oroku Saki in this, a mention of him or what...this guy is more than likely like I said one of two things: The NEW Shredder or a reincarnated Shredder

Yeah but you see, I'm not interested in NEW Shredder.

...and reincarnated Shredder is a face palm worthy concept from the get go.

 

[Marvin]

Yeah the source material doesn't have a midget in a tutu but that's the point. Hollywood often makes changes to the source material with little regard for what made the source material popular.

and if you're not going to replicate what made the series popular then you might as well not adapt it for film and create something completely new.

You missed the point I was trying to make:
I said shredder has been portrayed as less than serious in the past, so fans don't have to take him so(super) seriously going forward. I look at the foot soldiers in the fred wolf cartoon, the ethnicity of shredder, the voice actor and the silly fun joke that he was his daily goals....in conjunction with the idea that, that cartoon is turtles at their most popular and is what made the brand super successful!

I'd say fans don't need to get so serious about him being a serious Watanabe type. If you can find the same argument for a fairy batman go for it.

What is hypocritical about replacing white characters since white characters are common place and keeping minority characters the same since they are rare by comparison?

Where does it stop is the problem. If it's about equality as people are saying it is, then it should be about race changing and not simply fighting a war against the white man.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

Yeah but you see, I'm not interested in NEW Shredder.

...and reincarnated Shredder is a face palm worthy concept from the get go.

Your loss hoss

 

[Marvin]

Maybe, but I don't consider Bale that good a Batman to begin with.

And that's a pitty too, would have loved to see a blonde cap but then again didn't watch the Cap movies anyhow (the actor playing cap would still fall into the "blonde" spectrum, though more in the area of dark blonde). The char is too much "Murrica" for my taste.

As for things not mattering, I'd say try suggesting a blonde or ginger Superman and you will see **** flying... heck, the Superherohype forum had a discussion, if it is proper that Superman should be played by a Brit instead of a "true American".

**** storms happened for both of those characters hair on SHH. I witnessed it. Same with superman's underoos.

People don't respond well to change, then if the movie is good, they move on. It's happened before, it will happen here. And if they made superman a ginger(like they did lois), the same pattern will ensue. Bet on it.
People talk about 'rioting or washing their hands'...meh. People go regardless

 

[Kal-El.9859]

**** storms happened for both of those characters hair on SHH. I witnessed it. Same with superman's underoos.

People don't respond well to change, then if the movie is good, they move on. It's happened before, it will happen here. And if they made superman a ginger(like they did lois), the same pattern will ensue. Bet on it.
People talk about 'rioting or washing their hands'...meh. People go regardless

Amy Adams is not the first redheaded Lois Lane....

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You missed the point I was trying to make:
I said shredder has been portrayed as less than serious in the past, so fans don't have to take him so(super) seriously going forward. I look at the foot soldiers in the fred wolf cartoon, the ethnicity of shredder, the voice actor and the silly fun joke that he was his daily goals....in conjunction with the idea that, that cartoon is turtles at their most popular and is what made the brand super successful!

I'd say fans don't need to get so serious about him being a serious Watanabe type. If you can find the same argument for a fairy batman go for it.

Since we already had a silly TMNT franchise I think it's reasonable to want a darker version.

Where does it stop is the problem. If it's about equality as people are saying it is, then it should be about race changing and not simply fighting a war against the white man.

It's not about equality, it's about showing a little diversity in movies to reflect the audience.

 

[LaughingMage]

Your loss hoss

Considering this is a Michael Bay movie I somehow doubt it'll be a significant loss. ^^

 

[Nathan]

Even if they change it so that Eric Sachs is a military general that leads a military black-ops unit called "The Foot," why is it that no one minds that sort of change, but get upset that Sue Storm will have a Black brother? Why can't Heimdal, a make-believe deity, be non-White without it being called a PC stunt? Yet some how, the entire back story for The Shredder can be changed and, "hey, why not. There could be lots of Shredders."

Oh, believe me, I hate the changes. I don't care a bit about a white Shredder in power armor, or a militarized Foot. And I wouldn't even mind the militarized Foot, if they would have taken some notes from G.I. Joe's Snake Eyes or the Metal Gear Tengus. These Foot look just plain boring.

But you can't voice any displeasure around here, without people attacking you for your opinion. Different opinions are a big no, no around here.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

Considering this is a Michael Bay movie I somehow doubt it'll be a significant loss. ^^

When did Bay take over the directing duties??? It's not a Michael Bay film. I promise you that when the opening credits roll it won't say, "A Michael Bay Film".

And I was talking about the IDW comic....it's a very good read

 

[LaughingMage]

Oh, believe me, I hate the changes. I don't care a bit about a white Shredder in power armor, or a militarized Foot. And I wouldn't even mind the militarized Foot, if they would have taken some notes from G.I. Joe's Snake Eyes or the Metal Gear Tengus. These Foot look just plain boring.

I don't mind the militarized Foot that much, Ninja were involved with military campaigns after all. The trouble with the movie is the fact that the basic story of Ninja Turtles is essentially a good, old revenge tale.

Splinter's training of the Turtles is for better or worse the creation of an assassin team to take down Shredder to avenge his Master Hamato Yoshi. The trope is very present in Asian cinema and TV shows and if played straight could be a great tale about vengeance, forgiveness, wrath and all kind of emotional issues. It's a very intimate kind of story and not one I think Bay is capable of telling.

 

[Marvin]

Amy Adams is not the first redheaded Lois Lane....

Fans have short memories so it stirs controversy. Same as superman killing. They see it as change is my point.

Since we already had a silly TMNT franchise I think it's reasonable to want a darker version.

obviously, but that doesn't mean the producers don't have the option to simply do what came before. As you said.

It's not about equality, it's about showing a little diversity in movies to reflect the audience.

I see now.
So if the audience was all white it would then be ok. I don't subscribe to that ideology.

It should either be about fair or nothing at all otherwise you end up becoming what you hate. But that's me.

 

[Arach Knight]

I don't care. If he can play the character well I'm not going to sit here and bash. We know nothing about this movie really other than that short synopsis. I'm a wait and see kinda guy.

Who is bashing anything? Did I say William Fichtner is a bad actor? Did I say this movie is terrible even though I haven't seen it? The answer on both counts is a resounding, NO! I even prefaced this discussion as being about the hypocritical position taken by society when it comes to race changes for fictional characters. So I am not here to debate the merits of race changes for fictional characters. My only concern here is the disproportionate response to those changes.

Change a minority character into a White person? No one seems to care. Or, they offer up a bevy of excuses about "hiring the best actor for the job" or how "that character doesn't look/sound like a minority in the books." Change a White character into a minority, and the argument is suddenly "oh no, it's some P.C. bullcrap affirmative action" or "the studio has an agenda!"

Either we as a society and culture need to be consistent with any disapproval of race changes, or these very selective detractors need to start owning up to their hidden prejudice and bigotry.

 

[Shikamaru]

But you can't voice any displeasure around here, without people attacking you for your opinion. Different opinions are a big no, no around here.

Welcome to SHH 2014. That seems to just be the status quo. Everywhere you go, there can't be any reasonable displeasure whatsoever expressed. And if you do? You're a hater, a purist, a pessimist, you can't accept change/deviations, you're intentionally trying to not like it, you hated it from the start, etc.

It's everywhere. The TMNT boards, the FF boards, the Batman/Superman boards, etc. It's why I completely stopped commenting in threads like these for the past few months now, and why I even considered leaving this site altogether in the past.

But seriously, you can't critique anything anymore without the hater /purist blanket response being thrown. And that's really what it is, a poorly thought-out blanket response used to lump together anyone that doesn't like a particular change with the morons who think absolutely nothing can ever be changed. And in the cases when people actually see a film and still don't like it? "You went in wanting to hate it" starts being thrown around. And it is a mentality that only seems to be increasing.

I was chatting with a friend of mine who noticed the same trend, and he said he believes DBE would be a hit (or at least moderately successful) had it come out today. I wouldn't go that far as of yet, but I'm rapidly getting closer and closer to believing that more and more.