To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[Breogan]

You know what would be a true medical miracle? Regrowing a limb. Anything short of that isn't really a miracle.

Agree.
The kind of surrendering to the idea of - it's a medical miracle- terrifies me, because it's one step away from, god can fix anyone, let's not do anything, and let god decide.
These ideas of "miracles" places in the superstitious mind the idea that a god is doing everything. And we know because of it there are religious/superstitious people who will actually surrender and not do anything to help a sick person.

 

[Greens]

Agree.
The kind of surrendering to the idea of - it's a medical miracle- terrifies me, because it's one step away, from let's not do anything, and let god decide.
These ideas of "miracles" places in the superstitious mind the idea that a god is doing everything. And we know because of it there are religious/superstitious people who will actually surrender and not do anything to help a sick person.

It also raises the question, why does God only save certain people? He saves people from the white middle-class, but starving Africans are too much trouble?

 

[Apollo]

Hi all, I'm a pastor and recently decided to try something different from anything else I've done. It's the first in (hopefully) a series of Youtube videos called 3 Minute Sermons. Let me know what you think.

https://youtu.be/G7hmDd6QjX4

Awesome man! Great job t:

 

[moviedoors]

And it still takes a huge amount of faith that all those "good things" will line up perfectly and create something amazing.

Not when the evidence corroborates it.

 

[jerkhero]

I wonder how the miracles work, do some people just deserve the miracles more than others? Because with every miracle cure there are thousands who don't get that cure. Came to mind because a (christian) person I know recently died of cancer. It had spread to at least to her lungs and brains. No miracles there.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Well many times in the bible when Jesus healed people who had faith. For example, the blind man. "And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your FAITH has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way (*Mark‬ *10‬:*52‬ ESV). Now Jesus also healed some who weren't believers but once he did, it resulted in faith in God. I can't say why God heals some and not others. I seen people who have an unwavering faith in God/ Jesus and were healed and others who sadly were not. Doesn't mean God is cruel, uncaring or unable. He has a plan and purpose for everything that happens in life.

God never said life was gonna be easy, fair, or that you would never have to face hardships here on earth. It rains on believers and unbelievers alike. Jesus himself didn't have it easy, he was mocked and crucified by his own creation. His disciples didn't have it easy either. Only in heaven do we experience enteral paradise. He did however say he would be there during the tough times via the holy spirt for those who accepted Christ as their savior.

An example of this is from a guy I sorta know. He shared his story of being mad at God because his sister died of an illness and he prayed and prayed but she still died. He was angry and for a period lost faith. But ultimately, God gave him peace and he understood. Now he is one of the most legit people I seen and uses his experience go minister to people about the grace of God and how he can use the worst of situations for good. Sadly, there are people who still get angry lose faith during hard times.

Our job as Christians isn't always for us to understand God's methods but to have faith and trust that he works good in all things. Like my pastor so elegantly put it, spiritual matters will never make sense to the natural mind.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

It also raises the question, why does God only save certain people? He saves people from the white middle-class, but starving Africans are too much trouble?

As the starving kids in Africa issue. I know many churches, mine included that are actively doing good work in the area. Sending people on missions trips there, building orphanages, medical centers , churches, providing food and clean water etc. My church is also active with the homeless in my local area as well. I believe God uses the church/ his people to assist with issues like these.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

 

[Greens]

Well many times in the bible when Jesus healed people who had faith. For example, the blind man. "And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your FAITH has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way (*Mark‬ *10‬:*52‬ ESV). Now Jesus also healed some who weren't believers but once he did, it resulted in faith in God. I can't say why God heals some and not others. I seen people who have an unwavering faith in God/ Jesus and were healed and others who sadly were not. Doesn't mean God is cruel, uncaring or unable. He has a plan and purpose for everything that happens in life.

God never said life was gonna be easy, fair, or that you would never have to face hardships here on earth. It rains on believers and unbelievers alike. Jesus himself didn't have it easy, he was mocked and crucified by his own creation. His disciples didn't have it easy either. Only in heaven do we experience enteral paradise. He did however say he would be there during the tough times via the holy spirt for those who accepted Christ as their savior.

An example of this is from a guy I sorta know. He shared his story of being mad at God because his sister died of an illness and he prayed and prayed but she still died. He was angry and for a period lost faith. But ultimately, God gave him peace and he understood. Now he is one of the most legit people I seen and uses his experience go minister to people about the grace of God and how he can use the worst of situations for good. Sadly, there are people who still get angry lose faith during hard times.

Our job as Christians isn't always for us to understand God's methods but to have faith and trust that he works good in all things. Like my pastor so elegantly put it, spiritual matters will never make sense to the natural mind.

What I gather from all of this, is that critical thinking is frowned upon when it comes to God's actions. We shouldn't question them, because his plan is perfect in the end. It's so passive and intellectually dishonest. Instead of blindly believing in his plan, why not ask him about the discrepancies within his plan? Why not ask him why he saves one person and lets another person die? Doesn't he want his plan to make sense to his followers? Wouldn't their belief become stronger once they catch a glimmer of God's endgame?

But ultimately, God gave him peace and he understood.

You mean... he got over it? I mean, all of this sounds perfectly natural to me. He was upset that his sister died, and his unanswered prayers only added fuel to the fire. After a while, he came to terms with the past and moved on. That's what literally every person goes through at least once in life. God is not necessary for this to happen.

 

[Shikamaru]

As the starving kids in Africa issue. I know many churches, mine included that are actively doing good work in the area. Sending people on missions trips there, building orphanages, medical centers , churches, providing food and clean water etc. My church is also active with the homeless in my local area as well. I believe God uses the church/ his people to assist with issues like these.

What about the many unwanted births and thousands of Africans suffering from AIDS due the Catholic Church's war on contraception?

The previous Pope at one point came out and stated it's better for people to get AIDS than to use condoms. "Absurd" can't even describe such statement. At that point it's genocidal stupidity.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Greens

"What I gather from all of this, is that critical thinking is frowned upon when it comes to God's actions. We shouldn't question them, because his plan is perfect in the end. It's so passive and intellectually dishonest. Instead of blindly believing in his plan, why not ask him about the discrepancies within his plan? Why not ask him why he saves one person and lets another person die? Doesn't he want his plan to make sense to his followers? Wouldn't their belief become stronger once they catch a glimmer of God's endgame?"

Who are we to say God plans have discrepancies? Just because we don't understand something God does doesn't mean it's flawed. It's pretty arrogant for a believer to believe that our ways and methods/ reasonings are better than God's. He doesn't owe us anything and it's not our job to always understand. As a Christian it isn't about God not wanting any one to think critically. He gave us intelligence and free will after all. It's more about faith. Can you trust him even through the hard times? Usually God rewards people who stand strong in faith during tragic and difficult times. It's arrogance of man to think we are or should be on the same level as God intellectually. Even if he did explain the endgame to every situation in life, don't you think humans would try to interfere and do things their way? Which would probably result in disaster. Or if he did explain things it would be similar to a person with a PHD in Physics trying to teach an advanced grad school course to a bunch of elementary school students.


Greens

"You mean... he got over it? I mean, all of this sounds perfectly natural to me. He was upset that his sister died, and his unanswered prayers only added fuel to the fire. After a while, he came to terms with the past and moved on. That's what literally every person goes through at least once in life. God is not necessary for this to happen."


I mean he didn't lose his faith in God because he didn't understand why God didn't heal his sister. He could have easily walked away from God and religion like some many others do. But he keep believing and having faith and God did something amazing even in a terrible situation like that. I am sure he misses his sister daily but God revealed some things to him personally, which I won't post just because I don't wanna put all his personal business out there, but he uses that experience to help others who faced similar hardships. The people who's lives where changed by hearing his testimony, might not have ever experienced such a thing if this man had listened to the logical world and given up hope and faith due to a situation he didn't understand at the time.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

> The believe in the biblical God implies he had a real interest and direct interaction with the world in the past, but one day just said "**** it" and left, to never be seen again.

> To believe in the biblical God implies that he chose Israel and the Jewish people as his people and showed the finger to everyone else. Gave them his word and made everyone else go on a "egg hunt" to find the bible and salvation.

Notice that i say biblical God because i'm not opposed to the idea of God, but i do not believe in the bible or anything it involves since i do not agree with the biblical baggage it brings.
Even so, i have nothing against the people that do. If they are happy and fulfilled, more power to them.

My question, what is your take in what i said above?

 

[Marvolo]

> The believe in the biblical God implies he had a real interest and direct interaction with the world in the past, but one day just said "**** it" and left, to never be seen again.

> To believe in the biblical God implies that he chose Israel and the Jewish people as his people and showed the finger to everyone else. Gave them his word and made everyone else go on a "egg hunt" to find the bible and salvation.

Notice that i say biblical God because i'm not opposed to the idea of God, but i do not believe in the bible or anything it involves since i do not agree with the biblical baggage it brings.
Even so, i have nothing against the people that do. If they are happy and fulfilled, more power to them.

My question, what is your take in what i said above?

Christians would argue that God is visible all around us.

If Christ established His Church on earth before ascending to heaven that would explain why he doesn't need to pop down here anymore. Revelation was perfected in Christ and Christ appointed the Apostles and those they trained to carry on the Revelation of Christ who is the Word of God. The Church is handling the Revelation.

That's the thing that one has to consider when viewing the biblical God from a Christian perspective. Prior to Christ coming on the scene the Revelation of God was imperfect and setting the scene for Christ's arrival. After Christ was born, died , resurrected, and ascended the game was changed and the way God interacts with mankind is different.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Usually God rewards people who stand strong in faith during tragic and difficult times.

There is something to be said for the mindset. Those who persevere have a better chance of getting through a tough situation. I guess if it helps to attribute that to a greater power, rather than just pushing through with a strong mindset, it achieves the same result though.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

My cool new Jesus shirt

 

[Apollo]

Some interesting articles

What makes Christianity different from other religions

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christianity-unique.html


What other world religions think about Jesus

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/worldview/what-other-world-religions-think-about-jesus

Mark Ruffalo opens up about his Christian faith

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/culture/film/mark-ruffalo

Thanks man. Fascinating reads

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Also if God says he is good and all things work out for those that trust and believe in him, why would I stand around trying to argue and question him at every turn? God is a perfect being, he isn't flawed like us humans and his motives don't have malice or evil intent behind them. It's not about being a drone or being punished for critical thinking or whatever non religious people like to call it. It's simply a test a faith and trust. Can you trust him when the world says other wise? From the Christian perspective, God's already done what's required of him. He created the earth and every living thing it in, he gave us intelligence and free will, and most importantly he gave us Jesus his son so that we may have enteral life.

Also when you in relationship with Christ, he will reveal what his will for your life is. It make come quickly to some while others may take longer. Like I said before, he never promised that life would not have hardships. Everyone has an appointed time to die. Sadly, some people die sooner than others. Sometimes things happen under own accord and God has nothing to do with it. Like someone making the foolish decision drive drunk, which resulted in them killing someone. We have free will after all.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

The God you describe would have to be quite powerful. It is estimated that over 100 billion people have existed at some point on the Earth. A God that can simultaneously hear each thought and design a specific plan for each person. Not to mention he would have billions of this number in heaven as well. Whew. God is quite the manager

 

[Human Torch]

The God you describe would have to be quite powerful. It is estimated that over 100 billion people have existed at some point on the Earth. A God that can simultaneously hear each thought and design a specific plan for each person. Not to mention he would have billions of this number in heaven as well. Whew. God is quite the manager

Yes,that's pretty much what we believe.

 

[Human Torch]

Also if God says he is good and all things work out for those that trust and believe in him, why would I stand around trying to argue and question him at every turn? God is a perfect being, he isn't flawed like us humans and his motives don't have malice or evil intent behind them. It's not about being a drone or being punished for critical thinking or whatever non religious people like to call it. It's simply a test a faith and trust. Can you trust him when the world says other wise? From the Christian perspective, God's already done what's required of him. He created the earth and every living thing it in, he gave us intelligence and free will, and most importantly he gave us Jesus his son so that we may have enteral life.

Also when you in relationship with Christ, he will reveal what his will for your life is. It make come quickly to some while others may take longer. Like I said before, he never promised that life would not have hardships. Everyone has an appointed time to die. Sadly, some people die sooner than others. Sometimes things happen under own accord and God has nothing to do with it. Like someone making the foolish decision drive drunk, which resulted in them killing someone. We have free will after all.

I'm pretty much grown bored of the "Why doesn't God do X" questions. (The answers can pretty much be summed up with Free Will/Cursed Creation) but you've handled them well.

 

[Human Torch]

My cool new Jesus shirt

Nice. I've got quite a few "Jesus shirts" in my T shirt collection as well.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Christians would argue that God is visible all around us.

If Christ established His Church on earth before ascending to heaven that would explain why he doesn't need to pop down here anymore. Revelation was perfected in Christ and Christ appointed the Apostles and those they trained to carry on the Revelation of Christ who is the Word of God. The Church is handling the Revelation.

Exactly.
That's why, imo, the Bible is no more than propaganda for control.
To paraphrase LOTR: "One religion to rule us all".
And that's exactly what happened, the Church basically destroyed all other religions with the intent to be the one, and whoever didn't obeyed it, would be put down or forced into it, aka, the crusades and the Inquisition.
And what was the #1 method to force people into it? The fear of hell.

Do you honestly believe that, if Christ established the Church, people would really twist and corrupt and misrepresent it?

That's the thing that one has to consider when viewing the biblical God from a Christian perspective. Prior to Christ coming on the scene the Revelation of God was imperfect and setting the scene for Christ's arrival. After Christ was born, died , resurrected, and ascended the game was changed and the way God interacts with mankind is different.

So, if God changed his way of dealing with us, if he was still learning the best course of action; then, he is not perfect.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

I'm pretty much grown bored of the "Why doesn't God do X" questions. (The answers can pretty much be summed up with Free Will/Cursed Creation) but you've handled them well.

Ok, let's go with that...

So tell me, if God gave us the free will to do anything we desire, to kill and rape, to be evil, to have those feelings.....what is the logic in condemning people that choose it to hell?
Those people are just doing what God allow them to, the urges that God gave them.
Don't you find it unjust, that God allows you to do what will condemn you?
Without even explaining what will happen if you take that course of action?
Just expecting people to stumble across the bible and take it for granted?
So, didn't God gave us free will and the ability to think?
If so, isn't it logical that someone somewhere would look to the bible and say "i don't buy it"?

It's like, metaphorically speaking, someone created a drug (evil) just to see who will fall to it, without explaining the effects it will bring.
There are instructions somewhere, you only need to find them and accept them....without questioning it.
But isn't questioning one of the "side-effects" of free will and reason?

There are tons of contradictions in the bible.

 

[Human Torch]

Ok, let's go with that...

So tell me, if God gave us the free will to do anything we desire, to kill and rape, to be evil, to have those feelings.....what is the logic in condemning people that choose it to hell?
Those people are just doing what God allow them to, the urges that God gave them.
Don't you find it unjust, that God allows you to do what will condemn you?
Without even explaining what will happen if you take that course of action?
Just expecting people to stumble across the bible and take it for granted?
So, didn't God gave us free will and the ability to think?
If so, isn't it logical that someone somewhere would look to the bible and say "i don't buy it"?

It's like, metaphorically speaking, someone created a drug (evil) just to see who will fall to it, without explaining the effects it will bring.
There are instructions somewhere, you only need to find them and accept them....without questioning it.
But isn't questioning one of the "side-effects" of free will and reason?

There are tons of contradictions in the bible.

I'm not sure if what you're trying to say is something of a variation on "God created evil,so doesn't that make it alright?"

God allowed Free Will. The price that comes with it,is that mankind will choose to do evil more often than not.

God also gave the Law. People can break the law,but there are always consequences. That leads to punishment.

Again,this seems like very elementary discussions that can be easily understood.

And no,the are no contradictions in the Bible.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

It's almost like God and Satan are co-managing. God "I will handle the righteous people." Satan "I will punish those who deserve to be in hell, by making sure they burn for eternity." *handshakes exchanged*