To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[Isildur´s Heir]

I'm not sure if what you're trying to say is something of a variation on "God created evil,so doesn't that make it alright?"

It's easily understandable if you read below the sentence you emboldened.

God allowed Free Will. The price that comes with it,is that mankind will choose to do evil more often than not.

God also gave the Law. People can break the law,but there are always consequences. That leads to punishment.

Again,this seems like very elementary discussions that can be easily understood.

That doesn't explain what i said, now does it?
I said one thing, you replied another. I questioned, you gave me definitions.

Let's try again...
A person creates a robot.
He has two choices, either program the robot to not be allowed to hurt people, or he doesn't.
Since he sees "not allowing" has limiting his free will, he let's the robot be free of such restrains.
A few years down the road, the robot kills a person.
How can the scientist punish the robot if he was the one that allowed him to hurt someone in the first place?
It wasn't the scientist that pulled the trigger, it was the robot that made the choice of killing; but by giving the robot his freedom to do whatever he wanted, expecting the robot to arrive to the conclusion that he should not kill on his own, indirectly, he is also to blame since he was the creator.

Bottom line, if God is our creator, if we are his children, there is no logic in a punishment/reward system.
A father will not punish his children, but rather help them if they fall.

And no,the are no contradictions in the Bible.

There are tons, you just don't see them because you don't question it.

 

[Marvolo]

Exactly.
That's why, imo, the Bible is no more than propaganda for control.
To paraphrase LOTR: "One religion to rule us all".
And that's exactly what happened, the Church basically destroyed all other religions with the intent to be the one, and whoever didn't obeyed it, would be put down or forced into it, aka, the crusades and the Inquisition.
And what was the #1 method to force people into it? The fear of hell.

Do you honestly believe that, if Christ established the Church, people would really twist and corrupt and misrepresent it?


So, if God changed his way of dealing with us, if he was still learning the best course of action; then, he is not perfect.

Who said anything about learning? You can't think of God in human terms. He isn't a linear being that learns. God is outside of time. Past present future (eternity in every direction) exists all at once for Him. He doesn't have a brain like you and I do. He is spirit. No corporeal form. And because He is existence itself and all things come from Him there is nothing for him to learn. He knows all there is to know.

Do you know what God meant when he told Moses "I AM"?

Spoiler

The line of thought runs roughly thus. If we consider the universe, we find that everything in it bears this mark, that it does exist but might very well not have existed. We ourselves exist , but we would not have existed if a man and a woman had not met and mated. The same mark can be found upon everything. A particular valley exists because a stream of water took that way down, perhaps because the ice melted up there. If the melting ice had not been there, there would have been no valley; and so with all the things of our experience. They exist, but they would not have existed if some other thing had not been what it was or done what it did.

The effect of this is that none of these things is the explanation of its own existence or the source of its own existence. In other words, their existence is contingent upon something else. Each thing possesses existence, and can pass on existence; but it did not originate its existence. It is essentially a receiver of existence. Now it is impossible to conceive of a universe consisting exclusively of contingent beings— that is of beings that are only receivers of existence and not originators. The reader who is taking his role as explorer seriously might very well stop reading at this point and let his mind make for itself the effort to conceive a condition in which nothing should exist save receivers of existence.

Anyone who has taken this suggestion seriously and pondered the matter for himself before reading on, will have seen that the thing is a contradiction in terms and therefore an impossibility. If nothing exists save beings that receive their existence, how does anything exist at all? Where do they receive their existence from? In such a system made up exclusively of receivers, one being may have got it from another, and that from still another, Even if you tell yourself that this system contains an infinite number of receivers of existence, you still have not accounted for existence. Even an infinite number of beings, If no one of them is the source of its own existence, will not account for existence.

Thus we are driven to see that the beings of our experience, the contingent beings, could not exist at all unless there is also a being which differs from them by possessing existence in its own right. It does not have to receive existence; it simply has existence. It is not contingent: it simply is. THIS IS THE BEING WE CALL GOD.

All this may seem very simple and matter of course, but in reality we have arrived at a truth of inexhaustible profundity and of inexhaustible fertility in giving birth to other truths. Not all at once does the mind realize the immensity of what it has thus so easily come upon. But consider some of the consequences that may be seen almost at first look. We have arrived at a Being, whom we call God , who is not, as all other beings are, a receiver of existence: and this satisfactorily accounts for their existence— they have received it from Him. But what accounts for His existence? At least we shall not be guilty of the crudity of those who ask who made God? For to make anything is to confer existence upon it, and as we have seen, God does not have to receive existence. He is not made, He simply IS. He does not come into existence, He is in existence. But the question remains as insistent for Him as for any contingent thing, why does He exist, what accounts for His existence.

Here one must follow very closely. God exists not because of any other being, for He is the source of all being. Therefore the reason for His existence, since it is not in anything else, must be in Himself. This means that there is SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT HE IS, WHICH REQUIRES THAT HE MUST BE. Now WHAT A BEING IS we call its NATURE; thus we can restate our phrase and say that there is in His nature something that demands existence, better still, something that commands existence. In other words His nature is such that He must exist. Consider how immeasurable a difference this makes between God and all contingent beings. They may exist or may not. GOD MUST EXIST, HE CANNOT NOT-EXIST. Their nature is to be able to exist. GOD’S NATURE IS TO EXIST. They can have existence. GOD IS EXISTENCE.

For there are not two elements, namely, God and His existence. And indeed if they were two the question would arise, what accounts for their being found together? But they are not two, they are one. GOD IS EXISTENCE. EXISTENCE IS. All the receivers of existence exist because there is one who does not have to receive existence. He does not have to receive existence because He is existence.

This, then, is the primary Truth about God. It was the crowning achievement of Greek philosophy in the fifth century before Christ to have reached the threshold of this most fundamental of all truths. Christian philosophers have continued their process, and for us it is a truth of philosophy and not only a truth of revelation. But all the same it is a truth of revelation, otherwise the philosophically gifted would hold it with less certainty, and the philosophically ungifted would not hold it at all. We have not only the word of human reason upon a matter so important. A good thousand years before the Greek intellect came so close to it, the Jewish people got the thing itself, and not by any effort of their intellect: God told them. You will find it in the third chapter of Exodus, when God appeared to Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. God had told Moses to bring his people out of Egypt. And Moses said to God: “Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The God of your fathers hath sent me to you.’ If they should say to me: ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” And God said to Moses: “I am who am. Thus shall thou say to the children of Israel: He Who is hath sent me to you.” This, then, is God’s name for Himself, HE WHO IS.

- Frank Sheed

A being like this doesn't learn. He just is.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

It's almost like God and Satan are co-managing. God "I will handle the righteous people." Satan "I will punish those who deserve to be in hell, by making sure they burn for eternity." *handshakes exchanged*

Sarcasm only gets you so far...

A better metaphor would be to say Satan is the warden, not God's partner in crime.

Besides, i didn't even say anything about Satan, you were the one that brought him up.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

There are tons, you just don't see them because you don't question it.

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39

Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23
66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36
67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6
68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16
69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39
70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20
72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10
74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26
75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38
76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15
77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40
78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18
80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7
81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1
82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10
83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1
84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5
85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22
88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49
89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51
91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14
92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8
93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32
95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2
96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16
97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5
99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29
100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8
101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1
102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5
103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5
104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12
105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4
106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25
107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

The Freewill Argument
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.



http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm

 

[Apollo]

Just got word about a awesome story coming out of my church. Apparently this family in the church had a member who was really ill for the past few weeks and the doctors here didn't really know what was wrong. Last night things took a turn for the worst. The family was told that their loved one probably wasn't gonna make it through the night by medical professionals. So one of the church pastors was called and visited. During the mist of the families grief, the just stood by them and started praying. This AM word spread from the family what their loved was is completely healed and it's like nothing was wrong with them at all.

When I hear stuff like this it just reaffirms my faith. Sure non religious people would say it's just a medical mystery that we haven't figured out yet and that the human body is complex. While those explanations may be plausible, I don't believe that it was a higher power at play. For someone to go from being seriously ill for week or two and knocking on death's door, to completely healed in a span of six or seven hours is nothing short of a miracle. Jesus also healed people in the bible who had faith in him. So I definitely believe God can heal people today in the same way. That open communication between believers and God himself through prayer is something that separates Christianity from other religions.

Glad he is doing better!

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Who said anything about learning? You can't think of God in human terms. He isn't a linear being that learns. God is outside of time. Past present future (eternity in every direction) exists all at once for Him. He doesn't have a brain like you and I do. He is spirit. No corporeal form. And because He is existence itself and all things come from Him there is nothing for him to learn. He knows all there is to know.

A being like this doesn't learn. He just is.

Weren't you the one that said, and i quote:

Prior to Christ coming on the scene the Revelation of God was imperfect and setting the scene for Christ's arrival. After Christ was born, died, resurrected, and ascended the game was changed and the way God interacts with mankind is different.

So, if it was imperfect before Christ's arrival and it all changed after his ascension, included the way God interacts with mankind; that means that God changed his ways, that implies a change of heart.

As for "learning"...that's just a word i used.
Don't like, replace it by something you feel more comfortable with.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Theological doctrines:


Moral Precepts


Historical Facts

I'm sorry, but what is your point with all of that?

On a second thought.....are you agreeing with me?
If so, i'm sorry, since i didn't knew your stance i didn't noticed it.

 

[Marvolo]

It's easily understandable if you read below the sentence you emboldened.


That doesn't explain what i said, now does it?
I said one thing, you replied another. I questioned, you gave me definitions.

Let's try again...
A person creates a robot.
He has two choices, either program the robot to not be allowed to hurt people, or he doesn't.
Since he sees "not allowing" has limiting his free will, he let's the robot be free of such restrains.
A few years down the road, the robot kills a person.
How can the scientist punish the robot if he was the one that allowed him to hurt someone in the first place?
It wasn't the scientist that pulled the trigger, it was the robot that made the choice of killing; but by giving the robot his freedom to do whatever he wanted, expecting the robot to arrive to the conclusion that he should not kill on his own, indirectly, he is also to blame since he was the creator.

Bottom line, if God is our creator, if we are his children, there is no logic in a punishment/reward system.
A father will not punish his children, but rather help them if they fall.


There are tons, you just don't see them because you don't question it.

My father punished me. I got my ass whooped weekly, but I was a little **** at times so I deserved it.

As for the robot analogy, unlike the robot we humans do in fact know right from wrong. We arrived at the conclusion that murderering other humans was wrong and counterproductive to our species longevity thousands of years ago. That's what makes us the guilty one. We can choose not to kill. If a parent's child kills someone we don't charge the parent for giving birth to the child, do we?

 

[Shikamaru]

@BatmanVSuperman

I'd add one more point to it that I've brought up before.

Fourth, even if you accept the free will argument as-is, you still have to account for so much evil in the world thst free world can't account for. Things ranging from natural disasters, to diseases, to children starving to death because the healthy human body requires three meals a day, to something as simple as people choking on their food because they don't have separate holes for eating and breathing like other mammals...if a God exists, those things are all directly his fault regardless of the reasons behind them. There's no way to sugarcoat that.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I'm sorry, but what is your point with all of that?

On a second thought.....are you agreeing with me?
If so, i'm sorry, since i didn't knew your stance i didn't noticed it.

I was agreeing that there are numerous contradictions.

 

[Apollo]

Right on! Even if God did start to do those things like regrow limbs, I am sure non believers would still try to discredit it as acts of God because they are to caught up in their way of doing life.

We are God's children. We are the next best thing after all

I would say that God doesn't want to take away our own technological achievements and take away our own scientific discoveries. I wouldn't want God to fix everything for us. That is why we have science, doctors, nurses. Perseverance, determination and faith also help tremendously. I don't think we should underestimate humanity just yet. As much as I want God to fix every single problem that humanity runs into, this is our journey after all.

 

[Human Torch]

My father punished me. I got my ass whooped weekly, but I was a little **** at times so I deserved it.

As for the robot analogy, unlike the robot we humans do in fact know right from wrong. We arrived at the conclusion that murderering other humans was wrong and counterproductive to our species longevity thousands of years ago. That's what makes us the guilty one. We can choose not to kill. If a parent's child kills someone we don't charge the parent for giving birth to the child, do we?

Again,this seems very elementary.

 

[Human Torch]

There are tons, you just don't see them because you don't question it.

No,I don't see them because I did question the apparent contradictions,and found there are reasonable explanations for all of them.

 

[Human Torch]

We are God's children. We are the next best thing after all

I would say that God doesn't want to take away our own technological achievements and take away our own scientific discoveries. I wouldn't want God to fix everything for us. That is why we have science, doctors, nurses. Perseverance, determination and faith also help tremendously. I don't think we should underestimate humanity just yet. As much as I want God to fix every single problem that humanity runs into, this is our journey after all.

Yeah,this is very true.

It also makes the reward pretty meaningless if we experience "Heaven on earth",where ever wish is granted and every dream fulfilled. God is not the Genie in the lamp.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

My father punished me. I got my ass whooped weekly, but I was a little **** at times so I deserved it.

As for the robot analogy, unlike the robot we humans do in fact know right from wrong. We arrived at the conclusion that murderering other humans was wrong and counterproductive to our species longevity thousands of years ago. That's what makes us the guilty one. We can choose not to kill.

I'm sorry, but those are bad analogies since they are not at the same level.

The first analogy of "My father punished me":
> Your father is not God
> A punishment for a moment is not comparable to punishment for eternity
> A punishment for something you did is not comparable to a punishment for a life time.

As for the robot analogy:
> I called it a robot for sake of argument, you can call it a clone that you arrive to the same point. The point is that creation can choose not to kill just like a human.
> "Murdering other humans was wrong and counterproductive to our species longevity", we are individuals fist and a species second. We choose to kill or not based on morals, values and consciousness, not because it's "counterproductive to our species".
As such, and since morals, values and consciousness come from "God"...we are not the only ones to blame since we have a creator that made us like this.
> "We can choose not to kill", sure, absolutely, but the point is that "God gave us the urge and desire to do it if we choose to". If we and everything are his creations, every thought and action we can do exists because of him.
He could very well created us with the impossibility to hurt one another, it wouldn't be a limitation because you can't limit what doesn't exist.
Since he created that possibility, he can't punish us if we choose that route.

Another analogy:

> Someone enters a room where 50 people are, goes to the table in the middle, puts a gun on it and leaves.
After a while, someone picks the gun, looks at another person and shoots, killing him.
How can the first person punish the killer if he was the one that introduced the gun in that environment in the first place?

If a parent's child kills someone we don't charge the parent for giving birth to the child, do we?

That's not the same thing since that is a human punishment, not a divine one.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Nice. I've got quite a few "Jesus shirts" in my T shirt collection as well.

There is another really dope one that is a full color print of Jesus surfing a big wave I wanna get too but unfortunately they don't have it in X-large right now

 

[Human Torch]

I'm sorry, but those are bad analogies since they are not at the same level.

The first analogy of "My father punished me":
> Your father is not God
> A punishment for a moment is not comparable to punishment for eternity
> A punishment for something you did is not comparable to a punishment for a life time.

As for the robot analogy:
> I called it a robot for sake of argument, you can call it a clone that you arrive to the same point. The point is that creation can choose not to kill just like a human.
> "Murdering other humans was wrong and counterproductive to our species longevity", we are individuals fist and a species second. We choose to kill or not based on morals, values and consciousness, not because it's "counterproductive to our species".
As such, and since morals, values and consciousness come from "God"...we are not the only ones to blame since we have a creator that made us like this.
> "We can choose not to kill", sure, absolutely, but the point is that "God gave us the urge and desire to do it if we choose to". If we and everything are his creations, every thought and action we can do exists because of him.
He could very well created us with the impossibility to hurt one another, it wouldn't be a limitation because you can't limit what doesn't exist.
Since he created that possibility, he can't punish us if we choose that route.

"We" actually created that possibility when Adam & Eve disobeyed God. And again,since we have the ability to choose wrong,there is still the Law that will proscribe the punishment we are to receive for doing the wrong.

Another analogy:

> Someone enters a room where 50 people are, goes to the table in the middle, puts a gun on it and leaves.
After a while, someone picks the gun, looks at another person and shoots, killing him.
How can the first person punish the killer if he was the one that introduced the gun in that environment in the first place?


That's not the same thing since that is a human punishment, not a divine one.

I don't think you'd have that reasoning hold up in a court of law,much less trying to condemn God with such evidence.

 

[Human Torch]

Theological doctrines:

Spoiler

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Spoiler

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39

Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23
66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36
67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6
68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16
69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39
70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20
72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10
74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26
75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38
76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15
77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40
78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18
80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7
81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1
82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10
83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1
84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5
85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22
88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49
89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51
91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14
92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8
93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32
95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2
96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16
97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5
99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29
100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8
101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1
102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5
103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5
104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12
105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4
106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25
107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44

Some of these supposed "contradictions" can scarcely even be considered a contradiction,using the word as loosely as humanly possible. I hope you don't expect me to respond to all of them. But for giggles,let me pick one.

84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5

There are many of these "one says two,the other says one" in the bible. When two people recall an event,they each focus on different details in a different way. The fact that Matt says an angel was there doesn't mean he specifies ONLY one angel was there. He's speaking of the one (arguably the important one in this case) that opened the tomb.

It also is ludicrous to think that because Luke mentions the angels standing,that the same angel in Matt's account didn't stand at one point.

This is no contradiction,since Matt doesn't say "There was but one angel AND ONLY ONE ANGEL.And he NEVER rose to his feet." and vice versa.

This in fact strengthens the bible's trustworthiness,showing there was no collusion among the gospels.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

"We" actually created that possibility when Adam & Eve disobeyed God. And again,since we have the ability to choose wrong,there is still the Law that will proscribe the punishment we are to receive for doing the wrong.

That makes tons of sense....
No one can be accountable for something two people did back in the days.
Besides, if we created something that God had no saying in, that means God is not that powerful. And if God allowed that to happen because they disobeyed him, that only means God is a rancorous self-centered bastard.

I don't think you'd have that reasoning hold up in a court of law,much less trying to condemn God with such evidence.

Don't take this as a personal attack, i'm just going to use what you said as a stepping stone.
The more i talk with religious people (of the biblical variety), the more i come to realize they have no idea what love is, and they have a very weird idea of God.
At least 80% fall in that category.

There is no heaven or hell, there is no punishment or reward; to believe in the contrary is inane and pure human pettiness of wanting to be rewarded and others to be punished because they didn't live according to someone's standards.
To believe in all of that is to believe that actions are the only thing that matters.

Two examples:

> A man is good, kind, helps the poor, does charity, he is a benefactor.
At home, he beats his wife and rapes his daughter.

> A man is the vilest of creatures. He kills, he maims, he rapes, he pillages.
All he ever knew was pain and suffering, never had a kind hand, never knew love.

Now, tell me, where are they going, heaven or hell?

 

[Human Torch]

That makes tons of sense....
No one can be accountable for something two people did back in the days.
Besides, if we created something that God had no saying in, that means God is not that powerful. And if God allowed that to happen because they disobeyed him, that only means God is a rancorous self-centered bastard.

No,it means actions have consequence.And you get what you deserve by your own Free Will.

I think anybody in Adam & Eve's place would've disobeyed God eventually. Such is the cost of Free Will,so it's not like they are held accountable for the sins of mankind.

Don't take this as a personal attack, i'm just going to use what you said as a stepping stone.
The more i talk with religious people (of the biblical variety), the more i come to realize they have no idea what love is, and they have a very weird idea of God.
At least 80% fall in that category.

There is no heaven or hell, there is no punishment or reward; to believe in the contrary is inane and pure human pettiness of wanting to be rewarded and others to be punished because they didn't live according to someone's standards.
To believe in all of that is to believe that actions are the only thing that matters.

Two examples:

> A man is good, kind, helps the poor, does charity, he is a benefactor.
At home, he beats his wife and rapes his daughter.

> A man is the vilest of creatures. He kills, he maims, he rapes, he pillages.
All he ever knew was pain and suffering, never had a kind hand, never knew love.

Now, tell me, where are they going, heaven or hell?

Both sound fairly undesirable. I hope you don't take this the wrong way,but your analogies are pretty lacking.

I suppose the bottom line is, I have no business saying who will go to Heaven or Hell.There is only One qualified to make that determination. But Jesus said "A tree can be identified by it's fruit." I certainly doubt a guy that abuses his wife and daughter are prime candidates for Heaven.

 

[Greens]

[/SPOILER]

Some of these supposed "contradictions" can scarcely even be considered a contradiction,using the word as loosely as humanly possible. I hope you don't expect me to respond to all of them. But for giggles,let me pick one.

84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5

There are many of these "one says two,the other says one" in the bible. When two people recall an event,they each focus on different details in a different way. The fact that Matt says an angel was there doesn't mean he specifies ONLY one angel was there. He's speaking of the one (arguably the important one in this case) that opened the tomb.

It also is ludicrous to think that because Luke mentions the angels standing,that the same angel in Matt's account didn't stand at one point.

This is no contradiction,since Matt doesn't say "There was but one angel AND ONLY ONE ANGEL.And he NEVER rose to his feet." and vice versa.

This in fact strengthens the bible's trustworthiness,showing there was no collusion among the gospels.

Why is the word of God so damn unclear? Am I supposed to side with Matt or with Luke?

 

[Sian]

I think I have the same opinions as Anne Rice - I believe in Christ, but as long as 'Christianity' as a faith continues to be homophobic and misogynistic I refuse to believe in its rules. I have respect for other religions and if someone wants to be an atheist that's their choice. I do, however, take objection to being constantly ridiculed because I have a religious belief. Bullying is bullying, no matter the cause.

 

[ThePreface]

Why is the word of God so damn unclear? Am I supposed to side with Matt or with Luke?

Not to step on anyone's toes, but because in the last 2,000 years it's been modified by men over and over starting with the Council of Nicea.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Who said anything about learning? You can't think of God in human terms. He isn't a linear being that learns. God is outside of time. Past present future (eternity in every direction) exists all at once for Him. He doesn't have a brain like you and I do. He is spirit. No corporeal form. And because He is existence itself and all things come from Him there is nothing for him to learn. He knows all there is to know.

Do you know what God meant when he told Moses "I AM"?


A being like this doesn't learn. He just is.

That's what I been trying to say to people here who aren't religious. They keep trying to put God into this human box and you simply can't. God doesn't make mistakes or is flawed in anyway. People that make claims that God is flawed or evil clearly don't know him. Like I said some of the bad things that happen are caused by man, not God. A drunk driver killing a kid is not God being unable or cruel, it was the stupidity of man to make the decision to drive drunk. Free Will plays a part in various things happening as well.