To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

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I think the criticisms stem from a whole pool of misconceptions. And I think it is important to separate how things are supposed to be practiced and how they are. muslims themselves don't all agree and not all muslim countries are as barbaric and extreme as places like saudi arabia.

If your point is "to separate how things are supposed to be practiced and how they are", then we're on the same page. It's just that I think the misconception swings the other way around. The extremists are "how things are supposed to be" and the moderates are the ones who have deviated more from these texts. Not all Christians and Muslims are extremists, that's a given, but I would argue that's because of the secular values they've been exposed to.

In other words, people aren't good because they're religiously moderate. They're religiously moderate because they're good people in the first place.
 
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I wonder if within a century or two if the world ends up doing away with organized religion, and replacing it with a simple "Moral code for humanity" ?

They may consider the ancient beliefs in supernatural after the advancements of science as just too silly. However, it could be a point in society that has established rules which are good for humans to follow (for the betterment of everyone) without needing a God to sustain the behavior.
 
If your point is "to separate how things are supposed to be practiced and how they are", then we're on the same page. It's just that I think the misconception swings the other way around. The extremists are "how things are supposed to be" and the moderates are the ones who have deviated more from these texts. Not all Christians and Muslims are extremists, that's a given, but I would argue that's because of the secular values they've been exposed to.

In other words, people aren't good because they're religiously moderate. They're religiously moderate because they're good people in the first place.
Well I'll agree with your first statement, we're on the same page there, but we'll have to disagree on everything else. at least you said it nicer than the last person who insinuated it.

just as an atheist once told me that I'm indoctrinated, I can say and believe that religious extremists have been brainwashed in their system for believing in the extremism that they do. this is kind of a nature vs nurture thing and for human beings nature kinda = nurture which is to say, you are a product of your upbringing, to a certain extent. a human being who grows up with no human contact whatsoever will have parts of their brain not fully develop and as a result, they are developmentally ill for life.

I have to do the reading on my own but right now I feel as though the passages in the holy text that come across as violent, are there to describe what to do when someone hits you first, and the more time goes by (furthering it from the time of revelation) the more of a discrepancy that comes with interpreting it for contemporary ages. the extremists will take and twist to justify what they do. but if you're right and their basis is supposed to be right, there's definitely something wrong going on and I'll say what's wrong, has to be the interpretations. And its these acts that are constantly showing up as the image of the religion itself, keeping this unfortunate vicious cycle of misunderstanding continue.
 
The day religion departs us is the day music, art, theater and dance depart us as well.
 
Surely religion can't be the only source of inspiration for arts?
 
The day religion departs us is the day music, art, theater and dance depart us as well.

How so?

If you're implying religion is the only source of inspiration of arts, I think you're simply wrong on that. There's no solid evidence for such claim.
 
Well I'll agree with your first statement, we're on the same page there, but we'll have to disagree on everything else. at least you said it nicer than the last person who insinuated it.

just as an atheist once told me that I'm indoctrinated, I can say and believe that religious extremists have been brainwashed in their system for believing in the extremism that they do. this is kind of a nature vs nurture thing and for human beings nature kinda = nurture which is to say, you are a product of your upbringing, to a certain extent. a human being who grows up with no human contact whatsoever will have parts of their brain not fully develop and as a result, they are developmentally ill for life.

I have to do the reading on my own but right now I feel as though the passages in the holy text that come across as violent, are there to describe what to do when someone hits you first, and the more time goes by (furthering it from the time of revelation) the more of a discrepancy that comes with interpreting it for contemporary ages. the extremists will take and twist to justify what they do. but if you're right and their basis is supposed to be right, there's definitely something wrong going on and I'll say what's wrong, has to be the interpretations. And its these acts that are constantly showing up as the image of the religion itself, keeping this unfortunate vicious cycle of misunderstanding continue.

There's two problems with this.

First, the extremists technically never have to twist anything as their belief is the default one as written in the texts. There's no "twisting" clearly given instructions on how/when to stone your neighbor or selling your daughter as a sex slave (in the case of Christianity) or how to wage jihad (in the case of Islam). They're right there and they're as bright as day. Sure, you may interpret it differently, but not everyone does as interpretation is subjective and that's where the issue lies. There are people who take these books as the literal word of God and use that to justify the atrocities they commit. You simply thinking their interpretation is wrong (which literally every religious denomination believes about everyone else) doesn't excuse the texts themselves by any extent. If anything, it would show failure on the authors' part to clearly get what you believe is the "real" doctrine across.

Second, you're adding a lot of revisionist history when talking about interpretations. The truth of the matter is that literalism came first, interpretations came second. Interpretations like the moderate ones today only arose after these faiths have been challenged by outside secular progress. As a result, these religions had to either forcibly adapt to new secular ideals or go extinct, something which continues today as well. It's an attempt to maintain as much power and presence as they possibly can to a world that's constantly changing.

It's essentially a spectrum. The more moderate religious individuals get, the further away they get from their faith. In that sense, the Christian and Islamic extremists are as about religious as you can get.
 
^ Should I even begin to list all the irreligious people who have contributed to the arts in the present and throughout history?

Again, what are you basing that on? It's simply an inaccurate claim.
 
I know it's a few people here that identify as being a Christian but I have a few questions, and honestly it might get personal so you defintely don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so. But for those that do consider themselves christians, how did you become one? Did you have an encounter with christ for yourself? Did you just grow up in a Christian home or did you become a Christian on your own? I mentioned that I experienced and heard about things that I feel are acts of God. Not I think there may have been some scientific logic behind what I experienced and heard about that falls under the supernatural, but I honestly believe that God orchestrate's those things and it's not science alone. Have any of you experienced anything like that? How to you feel on that subject? Lastly, have you ever had any hostile encounters with people once they found out your religious beliefs?

Well, I grew up in a Christian home. I guess I truly became Born Again in my early teens. Like most kids do around that age,I pretty much wanted to know why my family believed as we did and set out to prove it was trustworthy.I had started reading the Bible and had thousands of questions,so I did lots of research into theology/archaeology/history. And this was in the 90's before the internet-well at least before my family had it. So I did it the old fashioned way by reading books and so forth.

It's funny,because I feared researching my beliefs would cause me to have doubts,but the opposite happened and I began to feel my faith grow. Christianity isn't a blind faith by any means. There are well reasoned answers for every question. The trouble is people don't want to take the time to understand the context of the question.It's much simpler to rattle off things like "Well, the Bible says it's a sin to get tattoos!" or "Women had to marry their rapists in the Bible!" without taking the time to understand what was actually being said for that time and historical context.

Most people will only give the Bible a look at face value. They never learn to actually read the Bible for all it's worth. Now,I'm not saying I have all the answers (only One does) but there IS a valid answer to every question. "Whoever has ears, let them hear.” Matt 13:9
 
Couldn't God "inspire" a book that's applicable regardless of culture or time period?
 
I know it's a few people here that identify as being a Christian but I have a few questions, and honestly it might get personal so you defintely don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so. But for those that do consider themselves christians, how did you become one? Did you have an encounter with christ for yourself? Did you just grow up in a Christian home or did you become a Christian on your own? I mentioned that I experienced and heard about things that I feel are acts of God. Not I think there may have been some scientific logic behind what I experienced and heard about that falls under the supernatural, but I honestly believe that God orchestrate's those things and it's not science alone. Have any of you experienced anything like that? How to you feel on that subject? Lastly, have you ever had any hostile encounters with people once they found out your religious beliefs?

For me I was raised a Christian but never was a super regular church going family with my mom. Honestly the only church bits I remember was going with my Mormon neighbors and even when I was young I thought the Mormons were full of crap with the whole Jesus came to America shtick. I remember losing my faith at a pretty early age, probably around 12 or 13. I was really into punk rock and questioning any type of authority although deep down I steal kind of believed in something I just didn't know what. I staarted drinking and partying as well as doing drugs and that lasted up until I got hit with my schizophrenia. I had to do some time in jail and decided to read one of the bibles in there. I felt the OT was mostly allegorical and didn't really apply to modern life but reading about Jesus in the NT really spoke to me. When I got out of jail I was still having mental issues and one night when I couldn't sleep I had a vision of Christ, it was basically a bright light that was there but I knew it wasn't there and I knew it was Him. It was really powerful, the only thing he said to me was it was going to be okay. I know most would say this was due to the schizophrenia but who's to say that isn't how contact is made? Anyway after that I had a breakdown and finally got on meds to stop the voices and paranoia. I couldn't smoke weed anymore since that made me hear voices and freaked me out but I was still drinking for awhile. Then one night I had a really intense vivid dream and God spoke to me and told me if I didn't quit drinking I would do something stupid and end up in prison. I took it to heart and called a friend in AA to sponsor me. Been sober ever since, will be 9 months on the 27th of this month. I try to work the steps and try to remember to pray and whatnot but being an imperfect human I still make mistakes. I just remember what Jesus told me and it will all be okay
 
^ Also, I'm not sure I find comfort in the idea of a woman marrying her rapist being acceptable in a different historical context.
 
I know most would say this was due to the schizophrenia but who's to say that isn't how contact is made?

Sounds extremely flimsy to me. How could you ever trust something like that, knowing that you are prone to hearing voices and seeing visions? To me, it's far more likely that God's appearance was just your disease acting out. Is it really more likely that the supposed creator of the universe appeared before you?

I understand that Jesus' message regarding your drinking put you over the edge to sober up, but was his message really that special? "Stop drinking or you'll hurt yourself!" Weren't people telling you that already? Isn't it more likely that it was your conscience trying to battle the addiction from within? You knew alcohol abuse was bad for you, and this was your brain's way of dealing with it.
 
There's two problems with this.

First, the extremists technically never have to twist anything as their belief is the default one as written in the texts. There's no "twisting" clearly given instructions on how/when to stone your neighbor or selling your daughter as a sex slave (in the case of Christianity) or how to wage jihad (in the case of Islam). They're right there and they're as bright as day. Sure, you may interpret it differently, but not everyone does as interpretation is subjective and that's where the issue lies. There are people who take these books as the literal word of God and use that to justify the atrocities they commit. You simply thinking their interpretation is wrong (which literally every religious denomination believes about everyone else) doesn't excuse the texts themselves by any extent. If anything, it would show failure on the authors' part to clearly get what you believe is the "real" doctrine across.
You don't know that. I have to do some reading on my own but you don't know how extremists are taking in their readings of the scriptures. from my understanding, if someone hits you, you can hit back, but it's better if you don't. and the extreme violent cases are attributed to people who do truly despicable things. forgiveness is greater than revenge and killing 1 person is just as bad as killing a thousand, killing humanity.

Second, you're adding a lot of revisionist history when talking about interpretations. The truth of the matter is that literalism came first, interpretations came second. Interpretations like the moderate ones today only arose after these faiths have been challenged by outside secular progress. As a result, these religions had to either forcibly adapt to new secular ideals or go extinct, something which continues today as well. It's an attempt to maintain as much power and presence as they possibly can to a world that's constantly changing.

It's essentially a spectrum. The more moderate religious individuals get, the further away they get from their faith. In that sense, the Christian and Islamic extremists are as about religious as you can get.
I will agree that some things are not up for interpretation. but when something is written emphatically, figuratively, metaphorically, poetically, there is definitely going to be differing numerous and dispersing opinions and interpretations. but just going reading and going off of one's own interpretation isn't rational unless it's backed up and justified. what the extremists are doing isn't that.

I would also say once music departs us is the day religion, art, theater and dance depart us as well.
this is slightly off topic (and there's a more appropriate thread for this) but there have been artists and musicians who say they have more creative vision and ideas when under the influence of marijuana. i know a guy who plays the guitar and i got him to smoke weed once, and he picked up a guitar and was just playing around with tunes and then said "this is the most music I've ever made in my entire life."
 
this is slightly off topic (and there's a more appropriate thread for this) but there have been artists and musicians who say they have more creative vision and ideas when under the influence of marijuana. i know a guy who plays the guitar and i got him to smoke weed once, and he picked up a guitar and was just playing around with tunes and then said "this is the most music I've ever made in my entire life."

Tons of artists in the 60's and 70's wrote their best music under the influence of drugs. It can definitely make a person more creative.
 
Sounds extremely flimsy to me. How could you ever trust something like that, knowing that you are prone to hearing voices and seeing visions? To me, it's far more likely that God's appearance was just your disease acting out. Is it really more likely that the supposed creator of the universe appeared before you?

I understand that Jesus' message regarding your drinking put you over the edge to sober up, but was his message really that special? "Stop drinking or you'll hurt yourself!" Weren't people telling you that already? Isn't it more likely that it was your conscience trying to battle the addiction from within? You knew alcohol abuse was bad for you, and this was your brain's way of dealing with it.

Those are all very logical assertions Greens but for me that's how I choose to interpret things and it comforts me to have experienced them. So even though I know what logic dictates under those circumstances I feel it's my higher power reaching out to me.

And for the record almost all of my hallucinations are auditory so having the one vision is kind of special for me since nothing else like that ever happened again. Schizophrenia is a broad spectrum disorder and can affect everyone in different ways
 
Tons of artists in the 60's and 70's wrote their best music under the influence of drugs. It can definitely make a person more creative.
word. well, I dunno about doing other things on the regular besides pot, but I don't doubt it. lil wayne is high every time he raps.
 
word. well, I dunno about doing other things on the regular besides pot, but I don't doubt it. lil wayne is high every time he raps.

Yep, other drugs were/are used too. I once studied a little bit how drugs affect intelligence and creativity, and some articles even affiliated different drugs with different styles of music. I guess humans like to pursue these altered states of consciousness, whether it's drugs or something like shamanism. Not much of that in modern religions I think, or is there? Maybe some people achieve that by praying or other rituals.
 
You don't know that. I have to do some reading on my own but you don't know how extremists are taking in their readings of the scriptures. from my understanding, if someone hits you, you can hit back, but it's better if you don't. and the extreme violent cases are attributed to people who do truly despicable things. forgiveness is greater than revenge and killing 1 person is just as bad as killing a thousand, killing humanity.

Except that we do know how they're taking in their scriptures. We have numerous accounts of people throughout history claiming to do despicable acts in the name of their God and sourcing their holy texts as evidence in the process, claiming they're doing God's will.

Sure, we can argue the extent to which religion is a factor. It's essentially on a spectrum. In some cases, you can draw a straight line from a particular action to a religion (witch trials, anti-contraceptives, genital mutilation, suicide bombing). In other cases, religion is just one of many factors (Nazi Germany) and in other cases it plays no factor. So yes, it's not the end-all-be-all of evil, but the reality of people doing harm to others solely based on their religious beliefs is not up for debate.

I will agree that some things are not up for interpretation. but when something is written emphatically, figuratively, metaphorically, poetically, there is definitely going to be differing numerous and dispersing opinions and interpretations. but just going reading and going off of one's own interpretation isn't rational unless it's backed up and justified. what the extremists are doing isn't that.

You keep missing the point. The interpretation angle didn't appear till later. These were all initially taken as literal truths until secular ideas - as in ideas that contradict the texts - started intruding. The extremists' ideas don't contradict their texts. Doesn't make their beliefs rational, but that's because the doctrines themselves are not rational in the first place.
 
So why would God have to adhere to the feelings of certain people in a time period instead of making rules that apply forever? Why would an all powerful, all good God water down their messages and make compromises or make outright evil proclamations like forcing rape victims to marry their rapists? And how is that something that can be written off as "well he said that because historical context" when other things are held up as though they still apply today? What's the deciding factor there?
 
So why would God have to adhere to the feelings of certain people in a time period instead of making rules that apply forever? Why would an all powerful, all good God water down their messages and make compromises or make outright evil proclamations like forcing rape victims to marry their rapists? And how is that something that can be written off as "well he said that because historical context" when other things are held up as though they still apply today? What's the deciding factor there?

George Carlin: "So God forgot a couple of things. Like… slavery! Just ****ing slipped his mind." (he was talking about the Bill of Rights but this still applies)
 
George Carlin: "So God forgot a couple of things. Like… slavery! Just ****ing slipped his mind." (he was talking about the Bill of Rights but this still applies)

I love George Carlin. :funny:
 
Scientists search for answers in areas that don't currently have a definitive explanation. It confuses me that some of the super religious folks actually avoid these questions, or simply insert the same answer each time to cover such a wide variety of situations: It's just faith... or it's just cause the bible says... :confused:

Simply finding a way to relate a scripture to an event does not necessarily reveal a connection and thereby an explanation for an answer.

This is how Notradamus supporters operate. Wild interpretation to claim a fulfilled prophecy.

You see it in fundy lit as well.
 
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